SHOW TRANSCRIPT

This transcript is automatically generated by Descript.  Any errors or omissions are unintentional.

[00:00:00] Lou Mongello: When you see the castle, when you see the attraction, when you see the Marvel movie, like you see the finished things, you don’t see all the things that happened in between. You don’t see all of the drawings and the concept art and the stuff that was thrown away, and the failures and the financing problems.

[00:00:15] Lou Mongello: Like we look at sort of the end result of what the magic, the quote unquote “magic” is. We don’t see how they get there.

[00:00:26] Jeff Sieh: Hello, folks. Welcome to Creator News Live. I’m Jeff Sieh and you’re not

[00:00:30] Paul Gowder: And I’m Paul Gowder, and this is the show that keeps you up to date on the creator economy and so much more

[00:00:35] Jeff Sieh: When was the last time you sat down to actually make something and actually felt creative instead of just tired? Do you ever look at the people who seem to have endless ideas and quietly assume that they were born with something that you were not? And what if it is not a personality trait at all, but a set of habits that people have been describing out loud for seventy years while the rest of us were probably not listening?

[00:00:59] Jeff Sieh: If that sounds [00:01:00] familiar, you are in the right place

[00:01:02] Paul Gowder: Our guest today is Lou Mongello, host and creator of WDW Radio, one of the original and longest running Disney podcasts and podcast in general in the world with more than 1,000 episodes and a Podcast Hall of Fame induction. He left his career as an attorney, moved his family to Florida, and turned what he loved into what he does. And along the way, he’s sat down with Imagineers, composers, artists, executives, and of course his friend Kevin Feige who all built Disney legacy, and 18 of those conversations just came out in a book called The Disney Interviews. He’s also the founder of Momentum, one of our favorite conferences, and today he’s walking us through what it all means for anybody trying to make something on their own

[00:01:42] Jeff Sieh: So sit back, clear your schedule, clear your mind to get ready for this week’s episode of Creator News Live

[00:02:12] Jeff Sieh: [00:02:00] There you go, folks. That’s right, it is the name of the game. we are so excited to have Lou here with us, but we’re also excited about our sponsor who’s here every week. It’s amazing folks at Ecamm and you can find out more about them at ecamm.com/jeff. You can save 15% on your first purchase by using the code jeff15.

[00:02:28] Jeff Sieh: And by the way, camp is coming up folks. That’s right, camp is coming up here. it’s September 28th through the 30th. If you haven’t got your tickets yet, there is still time. I’m gonna be there. Paul’s gonna be there. So many cool people are gonna be there. Go to ecamm.com/camp to find out more. All righty, Lou, this is gonna be fun.

[00:02:47] Jeff Sieh: I’ve got you in my little crosshairs today, and we are gonna talk about all the amazing people, you have, interviewed over the years. And if you didn’t know this, but Lou, I think it was at D23 you announced or did you do it before D23 your, [00:03:00] your, legends edition of your interviews?

[00:03:02] Lou Mongello: I revealed it and released it at D23, where they induct the new Disney legends every couple years

[00:03:07] Jeff Sieh: So he’s got 18 of these Disney legends in there, and some of them … I mean, they’re all, you can all listen to them, and I’ve listened to a lot of the ones like with Julie Andrews and with the Sherman Brothers. it’s just the, the amazing, interviews that you have but the book is amazing too. you can get it at Amazon, you can get it on Lou’s website, all the places.

[00:03:24] Jeff Sieh: it’s actually, I love it on Kindle that’s what, that’s what I’m been reading it on myself so make sure you check out his book. But one of the things I wanted to talk about first is I thought about you because, Disney, I don’t know, a couple months ago and Disney+ released a great documentary called World Builders and it’s got your best friend on there Kevin Feige.

[00:03:43] Jeff Sieh: And one of the things he says, and I actually stopped and wrote this down because I thought it was so good, cause I want your, uh, thoughts on it. He said, “Don’t just close your eyes and wish, open your eyes and work towards the belief.” And then he goes on, “…but to have that belief in yourself to keep working hard to try to make it happen.”

[00:03:59] Jeff Sieh: [00:04:00] So that’s kind of very specific kinda correction to like the version that Disney most of us grew up on just, you know, you know, a wish is a wish your heart makes. You know whatever you dream will come true. So wh-what do you think people get wrong about creative work? Kind of in that mindset

[00:04:15] Lou Mongello: Well, so first of all, like the love and admiration I have for Kevin Feige, not just as a… As r-… Out of Marvel Studios, but he’s a fan like us too, and he’s just such a, the most, like normal down to earth person in the world. And, and I love that you pulled that quote, and I love that, the, the World Builders documentary.

[00:04:32] Lou Mongello: You know, my only complaint is that I wish there was more.

[00:04:35] Lou Mongello: Like, I wish it could have gone on longer. But I think that quote that you pulled i- is really interesting because I think sometimes, I think we confuse optimism with like passivity. Like believing in something is very p- powerful, but the belief in something which is, is critical is just the start of the process.

[00:04:53] Lou Mongello: It is… The belief is not the process itself and like you gotta do the work, right? I [00:05:00] think this is where like that’s where the huge nexus is. Like the work closes the distance between where you are and the thing that you are wishing for. And I think when you… Look, we can use Disney or Marvel as, as an example.

[00:05:13] Lou Mongello: When you see the castle, when you see the attraction, when you see the Marvel movie, like you see the finished things, you don’t see all the things that happened in between. You don’t see all of the drawings and the concept art and the stuff that was thrown away, and the failures and the financing problems.

[00:05:30] Lou Mongello: Like we look at sort of the end result of what the magic, the quote unquote “magic” is. We don’t see how they get there. So I think from a, an indivil- individual standpoint, it’s about just not believing that something’s gonna happen, but it’s believing in yourself enough that if you keep doing the work you will be able to make that thing come true

[00:05:48] Jeff Sieh: totally, totally good advice right there

[00:05:51] Paul Gowder: let, let’s switch to Bob Gurr, another amazing legend, and he said something about w-… you prepare for your career by being prepared for nothing [00:06:00] specific. And, you know, just being curious and continuing to really feed on that curiosity. I know you and I, Lou, we, we started this whole thing back before there was AI and, and things to do it for you.

[00:06:10] Paul Gowder: You know, if we wanted to do something, we had to just learn it and build it ourselves. So for creators now that are just so busy with packed calendars, how do you remain curious and keep, keep yourself open for those things that, that may come up?

[00:06:24] Lou Mongello: Well, I think you always not only have to be curious but you always have to be iterating. Like, I’m always looking to do what’s next. Like the second this book was finished I was onto my next project and I think what happens especially for solopreneurs and solopreneurs who might have a full time job like you have to remember that curiosity… You know? Like it doesn’t require a block in your calendar. Like it’s, it’s not about moving through your life on autopilot and I think what Bob’s point is, and God bless you Bob for still going strong at this time an- and phase of your life, like you never know how [00:07:00] What something that might seem unrelated at the beginning might become useful later on.

[00:07:05] Lou Mongello: I, you know, I went to school. I dedicated a lot of my life to becoming an attorney. I talk about Mickey Mouse for living now but y-… And you don’t think that those.. That the twain shall ever meet but they do and eventually those dots connect in ways that we n- might not necessarily expect or understand and I think for a creator specifically you have to have sometimes those inputs and, and take in things like a sponge to things that don’t necessarily feel like they are directly connected to your niche.

[00:07:35] Lou Mongello: Like if all I con- consumed was Disney content, all I would be eventually doing is just regurgitating the same thing that everybody else does but I take outside influences and I integrate them into what I do so it creates something that is new and more importantly something that’s different

[00:07:50] Jeff Sieh: Mm-hmm. So you mentioned, the lawyer side and the Disney side coming together, and if you’ve ever spoken at one of Lou’s conferences, you basically, when you sign the agreement, like… I think he [00:08:00] actually owns the right to this show by now. I mean, so those, those really do come together, because you sign your life away when you, when you

[00:08:06] Lou Mongello: It’s only 47 pages this year,

[00:08:08] Lou Mongello: so I cut about 16, 17 pages out,

[00:08:10] Jeff Sieh: Exactly. Exactly. by the way, I wanted to … You guys, as we’re talking about this, we’re talking about creativity, and I wanna know where your best ideas actually show up. So wherever you’re watching from, for me it’s the shower, right? Like, or, and, or it’s driving or walking or 3:00 AM. So d- d- where you f- get your best ideas, I wanna know.

[00:08:28] Jeff Sieh: you also, it also mentioned in the interview where you had with Bob he kinda gave you an actual method. He said describing handing somebody a big gray square of cardboard that has to become a bunch of little black and white squares, and his whole instruction was start making some black and white somewhere just anywhere.

[00:08:43] Jeff Sieh: Like And so I think half the people here are, are like staring at a blank page or, you know, they’re just kind of feel like they’re kind of in vapor lock where they can’t go anywhere. is that the whole trick or is there more to it than that, than, you know, just making a square somewhere?

[00:08:56] Lou Mongello: You know, it’s funny we’ve-we’ve heard Bob and Marty [00:09:00] Sklar and so many people talk about the blank page And for some people they look at that as enormous opportunity; and other people look at that as something incredibly in- intimidating I think the genius of Bob’s advice is that when you do that It removes that sometimes, I think impossible requirement That we put on ourselves: that the first thing that we make–that first square has to be The right thing or the best thing and I…

[00:09:24] Lou Mongello: You know, I look at the empty –I’m a positive optimistic person So I look at that blank page as one that contains infinite possibilities And then as soon as you make that first mark you reduce ,you know, that Infinite blank space into something that you can actually start To work on Like you by making that first line -That first square whatever that first thing is You start to reduce the way into getting A little bit of clarity It’s like taking, you know, a bag full Of Lego and you got to just Start putting down that one

[00:09:56] Lou Mongello: brick And then you figure out what you’re building along the way [00:10:00] But I think the important thing guys Is that as you’re doing that ;like the First version has another job In addition to having to be good Right?

[00:10:07] Lou Mongello: Because you’re putting your name On it but As you’re building it . It’s teaching you What the second version needs to be “Like this is not my first interviews book” Like I wrote one before and I hopefully learned lessons from the first one And I think This happens with podcasts and books and businesses And keynote talks and everything final product is a result of all the mistakes and learnings that you had Along the way

[00:10:30] Jeff Sieh: So, so do you, would you say like another, good tip would be something like the, you know, eat the frog? Like, you do the, the hard thing first in the morning or when you’re the most creative is a, as another kind of thing that kind of ties into that Bob Ger method of just, you know, make a square somewhere

[00:10:45] Lou Mongello: So I think it, I think of this in terms of, of clarity. I think we sometimes overthink ourselves into paralysis, and I think you don’t need enough clarity to figure out how you’re gonna finish something. All you need is enough clarity just to start, and then you figure it out and you build [00:11:00] your wings on the way down

[00:11:01] Jeff Sieh: Very good

[00:11:02] Paul Gowder: All right, let’s switch to Marty Sklar. you know, he was just, what, 21 years old when he got assigned to invent a newspaper for a town that wasn’t even there. And he said it really didn’t make sense until he figured out it was all about story. So for solopreneurs and creators out there that feel like everything they’re doing is just too small, how do you tell them to find the story and to, you know, build this bigger thing?

[00:11:24] Lou Mongello: Well, I think he realized like the newspaper wasn’t the product right? The, the, the product of story was Disneyland and the newspaper was just a thing that sort of made that story visible and believable and tangible and I think it applies to businesses as well. Like your podcast or your course or your book or your newsletter isn’t the story they are part of this larger story about… And I think it’s really not about you it’s about the person that you were trying to help and th- the value based outcome that you’re trying to give them. Like these are all parts of the story Lego bricks whatever you want to [00:12:00] call them squares on your sheet of paper to help you the person I’m trying t-to help move forward become something different and hopefully you know becomes something better

[00:12:09] Jeff Sieh: So, Scalar also said that the parks are about detail and that if the details are wrong you take people out of that story. And one thing that Disney has done since I was a kid and continues to do is, is storytelling. So it kind of runs straight into “done is better than perfect,” which is the advice that everybody gets…

[00:12:27] Jeff Sieh: You know every creator gets handled like done is very impor- We’ve heard that at countless keynotes or whatever so where is the line? Where– Which details are actually carrying the story and which ones are we just, are polishing or we want to make it perfect because that’s our, you know how we are built Like w- That perfectionism hits it.

[00:12:43] Jeff Sieh: So where’s the line between okay the details are super important you got to get those right versus okay we’ve gotta ship it

[00:12:50] Lou Mongello: Look, I, I love the idea of done being better than perfect. Like if I waited until this book, this episode or whatever it is was perfect, it would never happen. But I [00:13:00] think… A- and I see this a lot. I think sometimes people use that as permission to maybe not care as much. Like the craftsmanship, the details, the storytelling, it still matters.

[00:13:13] Lou Mongello: So ensure that the thing that you’re putting out is still worthy of the best that you are able to do at that moment. I think that’s what, what Disney does. you know, especially when they put a date on the calendar which is why they did an D23. This is when this attraction is going to open. You know, it might now be perfect but i- it’s gotta be done, but it’s got to be done to a certain level of standards.

[00:13:38] Lou Mongello: you know, and I think it goes into the conversation too about I think a lot of us are Paul and I are perfectionists. Jeff clearly not. It’s about this idea of, of perfectionism

[00:13:47] Lou Mongello: and, and how that sort of masquerades sometime as, as high standard. Sometimes we just use this idea of perfectionism as a way to prevent putting something out there because we’re afraid of being judged on it.

[00:13:59] Lou Mongello: Like anytime you [00:14:00] launch something, any time you reveal something, any time you put out a podcast, there is a little bit of that fear like the Internet’s gonna be the Internet. I am going to, potentially gonna be judged by it

[00:14:09] Jeff Sieh: Yeah, yeah And it’s, it’s f-… It’s… I think part of the art of being a creator is finding that line and that line you’re, you’re gonna learn. I think, the perfectionism versus shipping it like sometimes I’ve screwed up and shipped something way too early that I shouldn’t have shipped right? Like everybody said that but you learn from those mistakes and I think that’s as a creator As you grow You learn where that line is Okay we just need to get this out the door Its good enough Compared to everyone else its really good But if you had more time you would work on it A little bit more What is that law Not Murphy’s Law Whatever time you set for something will fill Before youre ready To leave Im amazed at The amount Of stuff i can Get done before Taking vacation Everything hits At once Right And you

[00:14:52] Paul Gowder: Right

[00:14:53] Jeff Sieh: make it Work Why cant i be That Way all the Time So thats Kind of the Dilemma We Have as Creators Go ahead Paul You Had a Question

[00:14:59] Paul Gowder: [00:15:00] Yeah. Ooh, let’s talk about Leslie Iwerks. She directed the Worldbuilders, and she said when she sat down with storytellers, they always trace their curiosity back to a specific childhood moment. You’ve been having these same conversations with some of the same people. Have you heard that same thing? And is there, and even for you, is there a sp- a specific moment you can trace some of your

[00:15:19] Lou Mongello: I, I think it’s, it’s a, an amalgamation and compilation of a lot of moments. Like I can look back hindsight being 2020 and, and I was just having this conversation with somebody yesterday thinking about some of these seminal moments I had at Disney like with my parents, with my brother whatever it might be that I didn’t realize at the time were sort of leading me on this path that I did very, very circuitous path but I didn’t realize I was eventually going to get to. But I think it’s why not only does story matter, but your ‘why’ matters, like the why you’re doing something and the motivation behind it too. I’ll use podcasting for example because I, I love this medium so much because I think it is so very intimate. I think it’s [00:16:00] so very personal and your ‘why’ I think comes through because you can read something in a book, you can read something on a blog and you can’t hear the passion, you can’t hear the emotion, but on a podcast you can. And I think sometimes I see a lot of podcasters doing this they’re focused on the guest, they’re focused on the story, they’re focused on the content and sometimes they hold back from injecting personal stories because they feel well nobody’s gonna care. I think the exact opposite is true. I think your audience does care because once you build a l- a, a true loyal authentic meaningful engaged community, they’re sometimes not tuning in for the content, They’re tuning in for you so they want to hear whatevers that you have to say. They wanna hear the stories. They wanna hear you know the emotion too. Jeff, I’ve been telling you for years crying is podcast gold. You need to inject more of it into what you do because it does. It not only humanizes you but it makes people understand the story and the reason and the meaning behind how you got to where you are

[00:16:54] Jeff Sieh: Yeah, I think those are, are good points and I wanna bring up some, uh, questions, and I’ll try not to cry about this but

[00:16:59] Jeff Sieh: [00:17:00] DisneyHosteLeda he says this…and I want to talk about this for a little bit. She goes: That’s where I am right now overthinking into paralysis,” and I think a lot of creators have that and I’ve had it before and I think one of the things is, at this time, w-… It’s the best time to have a business, it’s the best time to be a creator in my opinion because before I’ve always felt like I’ve been a, a jack of all trades and master of none, right? Well there’s even articles being written, this last week about how Right now you have to be m-, a jack of all trades because there’s so many different things coming on in the business and how we can use that together. And this is the first time I’ve really felt like I’m kind of cohesively I can do this stuff because it, it ties into my superpower, right? So if you are feeling like you’re overwhelmed, like use some of that stuff to just talk it into AI and get some, ideas.

[00:17:46] Jeff Sieh: It can like, it’s almost like rolling the dice or gamifying like your next decision because a lotta times as creators we have so many things in our head. You know, like Lou, I know you have a huge whiteboard of all the things that you wanna do and a lot of times it’s just like okay [00:18:00] which one am I gonna pick?

[00:18:01] Jeff Sieh: What I wa- You mentioned after your book, the next one. So what are your criteria, Lou, on that of like getting out of that paralysis of, you have so many ideas. I mean you watch your, your Wednesday show and you’re like oh y- somebody will mention something like we need to do that trip or we need to do that.

[00:18:15] Jeff Sieh: So how do you, I guess triage your ideas that are coming up in your mind?

[00:18:21] Lou Mongello: I think it’s a couple of things. I think one, you have to do the things that like excite you to get out of bed in the morning and keep you up late at night. Like I did not sleep in the preparation of this book. Like

[00:18:32] Jeff Sieh: Right

[00:18:33] Lou Mongello: over bourbon at Creator Camp we’ll talk, I’ll tell these stories about, you know, the stress and, and the, the lack of sleep, coming up to that. I think you have to pick projects that you are truly passionate about. Do not pick the ones that you just think are the most monetizable or are going to have, you know, the greatest potential margins. You think about the things that serve you but more importantly also serve your community. What is your community looking for?

[00:18:57] Lou Mongello: What are they asking for? Where is there maybe a gap [00:19:00] in something that doesn’t exist? What is truly… You know, the, the interviews book is combination of passion project, for something that I loved and feel very privileged and grateful to have done, but it also was something that I was like well not everybody’s a podcast listener.

[00:19:16] Lou Mongello: Like availability of a podcast does not necessarily mean the same thing as accessibility. Just because those podcast episodes exist online, they still can be functionally invisible so this book allows me to not only capture those stories but hopefully share them with people that might not be podcast listeners

[00:19:33] Jeff Sieh: Mm-hmm. And I, and I, I lo-, you know me about repurposing content. I think it’s genius, right? And it’s not a small book. Like, it’s over 400 pages. Like, it’s not a teeny little book that you can just read in the afternoon as I’ve tried to do. But yeah, so I thought I love, the way, you have put this together and, and give it in another medium that people can go reference.

[00:19:51] Jeff Sieh: Like it’s, it’s nice to have a podcast but it’s hard to go back and like, “Hey, you know Bob said something in that, in that podcast.” Oh, Lou’s got a book. I can go and, and look it up [00:20:00] right there.

[00:20:00] Lou Mongello: Some people might say, “Well, all he’s doing is just taking scraps from transcripts and, and putting them together.” But I think the book changes the context because these are no longer 18 disconnected files or interviews.

[00:20:13] Lou Mongello: They are sitting next to each other, and so many of these people worked for and with Walt, and you start to see patterns across their stories and sometimes across generations about curiosity and persist- persistence and mentorship and storytelling and failure, and the reverence and respect they had for Walt, and I think more importantly, for the work itself.

[00:20:34] Lou Mongello: And, you know, With audio we sort of demand time in a very linear way, but the book allows you to linger a little bit more or read a page here and there and jump between things and pass it along to somebody. I think there’s a, a preservation element that a book has that maybe an audio podcast doesn’t necessarily have too

[00:20:51] Jeff Sieh: Yeah. So, the next section we’re gonna actually dive into the book where you, the, the book is actually 18 Disney legends. And, I wanna know if [00:21:00] you guys in the audience have ever got to meet or talk to somebody whose work has shaped you. So if there’s somebody who’s work shaped you, you know, mention them down below, like in, comments.

[00:21:10] Jeff Sieh: I was just

[00:21:10] Lou Mongello: Are you just hoping that they mention you? You’re just waiting, you’re just

[00:21:13] Lou Mongello: baiting somebody to mention

[00:21:14] Lou Mongello: you

[00:21:14] Jeff Sieh: no, not at all. “

[00:21:15] Lou Mongello: Oh, the first time I met Jeff Sieh, I heard the angels sing.” I mean, that’s

[00:21:19] Lou Mongello: how I

[00:21:19] Lou Mongello: felt.

[00:21:19] Jeff Sieh: I, well, you didn’t even talk to me. No, you were up on the stage as the keynote speaker at Social Media Marketing World. You were, you were casting down from your golden throne nuggets for people to, and I reached up and you swatted my hand away,

[00:21:34] Lou Mongello: I sat in the back row because it was a full room at Social Media Marketing World where you were there probably wearing the same shirt you have on

[00:21:42] Lou Mongello: now talking about manly Pinterest tips, and I just like, I was like Snow White. There was like birds flying

[00:21:49] Lou Mongello: around my head, and there was hearts in my eyes, and I’m like, “This is the man

[00:21:52] Jeff Sieh: I have gotta get the you as Snow White cosplay out of my head. I just can’t, it’s so

[00:21:57] Jeff Sieh: wrong So wrong. But [00:22:00] mention down below where y-… Like s- for me Mr. Goolsby if you’re watching which I w- would be awesome if you were. My theater teacher way back in high school huge impact on my life got me out of my shell in front of people which led to a lot of other things.

[00:22:13] Jeff Sieh: So like yeah Michael says “Lou has influenced me choose the good.” Yeah so S- so we’re gonna be talking about meeting your heroes which Lou has done in this book which is is so very very cool. So we’re gonna be talking about like the 20 years of Asking Legends I know Paul you’re gonna kick us off

[00:22:30] Paul Gowder: Yeah. so le- let’s talk about… Well first I wanna say how I met Lou, ’cause he did have an influence and, Jeff and you and I talk about it all the time, masterminds really do change how

[00:22:40] Paul Gowder: your perspective. I don’t know if, if Lou even remembers the first place we actually met in person. standing in line getting fish and chips in Epcot.

[00:22:47] Paul Gowder: I heard him. I didn’t see him, I heard his voice, and my wife and I looked at us, looked at each other and went, ” We know that voice.” And turned around and it was you.

[00:22:54] Paul Gowder: but yeah, in the, in the Disney’s Legends, um, y- how’d you figure out like who to include and, and [00:23:00] leaving them where they are?

[00:23:01] Paul Gowder: A- I, I do like how you talked about that this book you can kind of settle with it, and whether it was a podcast, this might have been over several years. So how did you string them together and figure out how to put them in, in what order?

[00:23:12] Lou Mongello: it’s funny, the first– So this is the second interviews book I’ve done. The first one was a compilation of interviews that people who worked for and with Walt Disney. And then for the second book, again it’s a much longer sadder story, but it went through a lot of different iterations of what it was going to be and the people that I was including in it. And the first version of it when I finally had it all pulled together and, and formatted it for a, you know, a trade paperback 6×9 book, it was like 579 pages. It was like the Gutenberg Bible. I’m like, “This cannot happen.” So I started to try and figure out like who do I eliminate and why? And then I, I w- I had all these different patterns of who these people were, and there was lots of different, lots of different [00:24:00] quote unquote final versions of the book, for one reason or another. And then I was like, well, wait a minute, why don’t I do this? Because of the clock was ticking. I’m like, why don’t I release it at D23, and this is where Disney Legends are revealed and, and inducted, so I’m gonna make it all about Disney legends. So I had to go back and add some people and cut some people out and keep it in context of receiving Disney’s highest recognition and award. But then also being sure that I included new personal introductions to every chapter to help sort of weave that common thread between them all as well as give context to what happened before, during, and sometimes after, you know, I clicked record on the microphone

[00:24:45] Jeff Sieh: That’s good, and I wanna go back to once again a Kevin Feige question because I didn’t get… I forgot to ask it. But this ties into what we were talking about a little bit. And even putting a book out is like, Kevin Feige says you have to believe in yourself, right? That was the quote that we talked about at the start of the show.[00:25:00]

[00:25:00] Jeff Sieh: But what do you do, Lou, on days where you don’t? I know we all have that as creators. Cause putting a book together is hard, and I’m sure you had days where you went like, ” Nobody’s gonna read this. Why am I doing this?” I got D 23 coming up; What am I doing trying to launch a book in middle of this?

[00:25:17] Jeff Sieh: do you have a group of people you go to? Is it like you go in, into the closet and scream, you know, Jiminy Cricket’s name five times? I don’t know. Like, what do you, what do you do to, to get over that time where you have those moments of self-doubt, because we all have them

[00:25:32] Lou Mongello: I literally could point you to a, a moment, multiple ones, but I’ve been thinking back to a night, it was like 4:15 in the morning, and I was scrambling to try and, like get stuff together for the booth, work on the activation, work on the technology, order products, work on this book, work on something else that I haven’t… I was trying to release at D23, and I chickened out at the last minute and didn’t. And I’m spinning all of these, not even spinning plates, I’m juggling like [00:26:00] bowling balls and Fabergé eggs

[00:26:01] Lou Mongello: and grenades all at the same time. And it was like 4:30 in the morning, and I’m looking at this book, which is now a mess because I’ve gone back and I’ve reworked it, and I’ve gotta rewrite things and reorganize and I, I can’t find all the different versions of it.

[00:26:14] Lou Mongello: And I’m like, “What are you doing? Like, nobody’s gonna read this. They’ve heard the interviews before. Like, why are you killing yourself trying to do this?” So I, I sit down, I have a good cry, I eat a bag of Doritos, and I feel better. And then I keep moving forward, and I’m like, look, I’ve got to go back to this belief in this thing that I’m doing.

[00:26:30] Lou Mongello: Like when you were not exhausted and when we were not overly stressed out, you had this idea, you believed in it . You got the plane off the runway. You started, which is the hardest part. Like, now you need to take it to, to its completion and be proud of the thing you put out. And if nobody reads it, that’s fine.

[00:26:48] Lou Mongello: If one person reads it and is like, “Hey, because of this book, you made me feel this,” or, “I learned this And that’s the win, ’cause it’s never been about the mon- you, Jeff, it’s never been about the money for me. it’s just been [00:27:00] about trying to help people, trying to preserve those stories, and again, it goes back to what you said before about the importance of the belief, which doesn’t necessarily translate to confidence in the thing that you’re doing

[00:27:10] Lou Mongello: Cause if you don’t believe in a thing, how you gonna get somebody else to believe in it?

[00:27:12] Jeff Sieh: Right, the thing that helps me And I’ve told some other people to do this in the mastermind and stuff is like take all the stuff where people said hey you doing a great job and put it into like a document then just go back on those days when your struggling with what to write or what to do Just go look Hey Jeff thanks for that was really great Like i get alot of times after I spoke somewhere and save all those So When I get nervous about speaking again can read them okay Your not a total idiot right?

[00:27:38] Jeff Sieh: so one of the things about the book, Lou, you wrote a brand new personal introduction for every chapter which I thought was great. how you met the person, what happened after recording stopped, why they mattered.

[00:27:49] Jeff Sieh: why did you do that for this book, and what does that tell us about kind of the difference between like your first book and your second book? Did you, did you do that on your first interview book? Did you go through it and do the same [00:28:00] thing

[00:28:00] Lou Mongello: I did, I did a little bit and I was much more intentional about it this time because I- it’s those stories that I didn’t tell in the interviews that I think not just add value to the book but I think add context ’cause look you can put out… And there’s nothing wrong with this. I, I know there’s a lot of folks who will transcribe stuff and put it out as a book exactly as they were spoken in a podcast or on a blog post and th- and that’s fine. I think for me my philosophy was, just transcribing the archive and putting it out says, “Look well here’s everything.” What I wanted to create with this product, with this book and, and again contextually was, here’s what matters and why it matters and how all of these pieces fit together.

[00:28:37] Lou Mongello: Because I think the interviews themselves, they tell their stories but the introductions tell the story about why I want to invite you into this particular room. And I think too because some of these years were done 15, 20 years ago, I, I can look back with a different eye and, and mindset and understanding because I realize that some of these conversations, like I looked [00:29:00] at some of these conversations differently.

[00:29:01] Lou Mongello: I think time sometimes has a way of changing your relationship with something especially after somebody passes away where you realized the impact that they had on your life Richard Sherman I’m not name dropping but I, I’m looking at you. So yes you can say, “Here’s an interview I did back in 2006,” but when you say, ” Here’s how I met this person.

[00:29:19] Lou Mongello: Here’s how I was terrified to make that first email or what happened before I hit record or what happened after the microphone stopped and why sometimes I still think about something that this person tells me” because that’s you helping to create a very personal, very human connection to that, that story

[00:29:42] Paul Gowder: Yeah. S- so you talk about in, in the introduction that you don’t think of these as interviews. And, and I know listening to your podcast, you are a very skilled interviewer and you think of these as conversations, and sometimes that just means you have to let the person sit in silence until their memory, you know, surfaces. That can be really terrifying for somebody who’s do- never [00:30:00] done that. It … So how do you do that and let them sit? And, and how do you prepare for these conversations? How, how can we replicate what you do?

[00:30:09] Lou Mongello: You know, silence is fascinating, Paul, because I think for, especially for podcasters and I, I go to and I speak a lot of pocat- poscad- podcasts, I really talk for a living, podcast conferences, you know, it’s, it’s sometimes people look at that silence or those couple of beats like something’s wrong. I don’t know what to say, this person doesn’t know what to say, and, and it’s about trying to rescue that moment.

[00:30:31] Lou Mongello: And I, I think it’s not about rescuing yourself or rescuing the guest from feeling uncomfortable. Like, sometimes if there’s that pause, maybe the, the person is reaching back 50, 60 years for a memory that they’re, they’re trying to pull back up, and if you immediately roll into your next question, you might interrupt that memory and not allow it to come to the surface.

[00:30:54] Lou Mongello: Because I, I think as a host, and, and this is… Thank you, Mom and Dad. This is where my [00:31:00] training as a trial attorney, I think, finally comes, finally hopefully comes in, in handy. It’s not just about you showing how prepared you are, it’s you helping to create, like, conditions where something can emerge. And I think my, like, one bit of advice I always try and give people is be overprepared.

[00:31:18] Lou Mongello: Like, be overprepared. The, the best compliment you can get when you give an interview is, “Wow, that’s a great question,” or, “Nobody’s ever asked me that before.” And I don’t mean go to, like, ChatGPT or Claude and go, “Give me a question that nobody’s ever asked before.” Like, that’s not the way to do it because you have to listen. And I think what sometimes podcasters and interviews make the mistake is you’ve got your list of questions, and that’s fine, be prepared, but you’re not listening to the answer because you’re already sort of moving on to the next one because you’re afraid of time or you want to make sure you get through them all. ‘ Cause sometimes they’ll say something and drop this nugget that allows you to get very tangential and pull out a story that maybe you didn’t expect, and sometimes that is, where the gold [00:32:00] is. And if you can ask them that question that… And they go, and they pause, and there’s this silence, and they go, “You know, I haven’t thought about that in 20 years,” like, that’s communicating.

[00:32:09] Lou Mongello: And also, and I think it also shows a level of necessary trust in, ooh, that you and interviewee have with each other. Like, I’m not rushing you, take your time. let those stories come out, a- as, as naturally as they can. and, sometimes, you know, I think it’s, it’s Sometimes the most important question you can ask is not necessarily the next one, it’s the one that you were not anticipating at all

[00:32:34] Jeff Sieh: Yeah, I totally get that and we do go down rabbit holes in this , on this show quite a bit too. And by the way just a shameless plug, a couple episodes ago we had Matt Stagliano on talking about the art of the interview and his book and what he talks about on how, you know, not to be afraid of silence which w- Lou talked about is awesome.

[00:32:50] Jeff Sieh: So if you haven’t seen that one, go back and watch that because it’s a, it’s a really good, episode about how to interview. one of the most, fascinating things that I think, there’s many of, of fascinating things about Lou [00:33:00] but one of them is when Alice Davis took you down the stairs into Mark Davis’ home studio pointed at a chair and told you that was Walt’s chair and then she asked you if you wanted to sit on it.

[00:33:11] Jeff Sieh: So what did you do? And what did that moment teach you about what happens when you stop interviewing somebody and start just being with them?

[00:33:20] Lou Mongello: So that goes right to the point I was just making about trust. Like, in the time that we had, and that was the first time I had ever met her or ever spoken to her, was when I was invited into her home and did the interview, and she’s giving me this tour of her house, and before leaving, she’s like, “Do you wanna see Marc’s studio?”

[00:33:36] Lou Mongello: I’m like, “Yeah lady, of course I want to see Marc’s studio.” And we go down these stairs into this, this tiny little studio in, in the, in the hills of, of, you know, California. And I, I’m seeing where Marc Davis, like where he did his work, There’s a, a little nondescript chair next to his desk, and she’s like, “That’s Walt’s chair.

[00:33:55] Lou Mongello: That was the chair that was in his office, that Walt would come in and say, [00:34:00] ‘Show me what you’re working on. And she’s like, ” Do you wanna sit in the chair?” And I was like, “I do, but I don’t wanna touch it. Like, I don’t deserve like, the, the opportunity to sit in that chair.” But like, that’s it.

[00:34:12] Lou Mongello: Like that’s… This is what I mean. Like, that doesn’t necessarily come through in the interview, but contextually when you add it to the book, like it’s that personal beat. It, it’s the emotional hook. It’s the thing that does not and should never be, like overly or scripted at all because the memory has to come very naturally from you.

[00:34:31] Lou Mongello: Because it was such an important moment, and if you’re a Disney fan, you’re like, oh, like I get it. I get the importance of sitting in Walt’s chair or getting to go in Walt’s apartment or, I’m saying this going into Kevin Feige’s office, because you give me so much grief about Kevin Feige all the time. So, but it’s, it is about that trust being represented by being invited into that space.

[00:34:54] Lou Mongello: you know, and letting her say, “Let me show you where my husband worked , and let me tell you [00:35:00] about what happens here,” because that’s, that’s no longer like her recounting like historical story. This is somebody who walked into a room, sat in that chair, and talked to his friend and worked through that ideas and, that’s part of what you, I think as an interviewer need to do too.

[00:35:16] Lou Mongello: You have to not just extract stories. You have to earn very quickly that trust so you can be entrusted with some of those memories

[00:35:25] Jeff Sieh: Did you sit in the chair?

[00:35:27] Lou Mongello: Of course I sat in the

[00:35:27] Jeff Sieh: Okay, I just wanted to

[00:35:29] Paul Gowder: All right, well speaking of sitting in Walt’s chairs, I, and you know, we talked about where creativity comes from, and Jeff, you asked everybody earlier, is it in the shower? Is, you know, where is it? In the bathroom? Lou, you, you did get to sit on Walt’s toilet

[00:35:43] Jeff Sieh: What did you say again? So it, it, it glitched out for me. You said, did you say Walt’s toilet?

[00:35:47] Paul Gowder: he did sit on Walt’s toy. A- any inspiration come from that?

[00:35:50] Lou Mongello: a- absolutely. So again, very quickly contextually, we do Adventures By Disney, um, with our community. We’ve done them for years, and the very first one we ever did was, one that takes place in [00:36:00] Disneyland in Southern California, and they take you up to Walt’s apartment. And everybody’s looking at the lamp, and they’re looking at the kitchen where he made his chili, and they’re looking at the rocking chairs and where he slept. Not me. I, like, make a beeline, and I go around the corner, and I go into the bathroom, and I sit down like with the seat cover down, and I sit down on Walt’s toilet seat. and like friends come in, they’re like, “What are you doing?” And I’m like, This is where the magic happened.”

[00:36:28] Lou Mongello: Like this is where he did his best thinking.

[00:36:30] Lou Mongello: You know it to be true. You talk about doing it in the shower or you’re sitting on… You’re doing your thing and you’re like on your phone. Like this is where he probably had his most solemn personal alone moments and thoughts. I wanted to like get some of that energy. They have since roped off the bathroom, and I apologize, to everyone who is no longer able to sit on the toilet, so

[00:36:53] Jeff Sieh: I think you said you take your phone into your bathroom, and that’s just gross, so we won’t go there. But don’t ever… If he wants [00:37:00] you to take a

[00:37:00] Lou Mongello: Listen, I know

[00:37:01] Lou Mongello: that, listen, if, if you don’t wanna take your phone, you can just take the Disney interviews into your bathroom.

[00:37:06] Lou Mongello: I know my place in the circle of life,

[00:37:08] Jeff Sieh: that’s ri-… What was that Seinfeld episode where it’s tainted? It’s tainted now, right? It’s tainted.

[00:37:13] Lou Mongello: There’s a little sensor on the cover of each book.

[00:37:15] Lou Mongello: It, like, turns red if it goes

[00:37:16] Jeff Sieh: right. So, And one of the things I thought I w- was pleasantly surprised about reading the book is the pictures that you put in there, and they’re actually, I don’t know what you…

[00:37:25] Jeff Sieh: They’re black and white, like, line kinda drawings. I’m sure you put a filter on some of them. But you mentioned, uh, Richard Sherman before, but there’s a great picture of Richard Sherman and your daughter when she was, I think, eight, that you had placed in the book as well. So tha- that’s one thing you don’t get from the episodes, is you don’t get those pictures.

[00:37:42] Jeff Sieh: And so, it’s just been really fascinating seeing the different things that you’ve, you’ve included in the book with the chapters as a, as, as you’re reading along that helps tell the story. So when we’re talking about this book, don’t think of it as just like, oh, this is just a bunch of text, and it’s just boring, you know, interview stuff, but there’s actually– It’s really, it’s really been fun to, [00:38:00] to go through it and see those images as well.

[00:38:01] Jeff Sieh: How did you pick those? Like, which… I’m sure you have a, you know, have tons of them, but, like, how did you decide, “Oh, that one’s going in; this one’s not”? because they’re really good

[00:38:09] Lou Mongello: Yeah, again these… All these stories usually take place around between 2:00 and 4:00 AM,

[00:38:14] Lou Mongello: at various times. trying to find photos and think back and remember, and going through your archives or trying to find one that fits in a- and cut them out, and then forgetting to tell your designer like, “No, that one’s supposed to come out.

[00:38:26] Lou Mongello: This one was supposed to go in.” It’s fine. It’s fine. We can, uh, there’s a whole nother show about like the actual process of writing and putting together a book and working with a designer. But I wanted ones that were not just about their window on Main Street. Most of the ones are of like for example getting an interview Bob Gurr in person, or Jack Lindquist, or Al Connetsney in person, and having those photos of us together.

[00:38:53] Lou Mongello: Or being on the Disney Dream with my family and, we got together with R- Richard Sherman one [00:39:00] day. It was my daughter’s birthday, and so we got together in one of the rooms and had cupcakes, and he like sang happy birthday to my daughter, which I bring up to her every year on her birthday. So being able to share those, I think it, it, it’s not about me, it’s about humanizing the conversation, and now you can start to visualize what it looked like.

[00:39:16] Lou Mongello: Oh, this is … When they talk about interviewing Bob Gurr on stage, this is what it looks like. When he tells a story about, sharing a birthday cupcake with Jack Lindquist, and there’s a picture of us, you know, having that cupcake at somebody’s house, it, it helps to contextualize, I think, humanize a little bit more, and maybe help to visualize.

[00:39:32] Lou Mongello: And that’s something that did not exist in the first book

[00:39:34] Jeff Sieh: Yeah, it was very– I loved it. I thought it was a great addition. one of the things that I, I think this ties back into kind of at, for creators is… And I actually, when I sent out the email, it was, I s- I think the title was something about like, the, “Here’s 18 Disney legends and n-none of them said it was built by magic,” because they never did talk about like magic or pixie dust.

[00:39:53] Jeff Sieh: They talked about the people. So very few of them think of themselves as legends. They talk about their mentors [00:40:00] instead of achievements and credit the team before they do themselves. So, after 20 years of hearing that from all these interviews you’ve done of these legends and other cast members and employees of Walt Disney w- what do you think it has, actually is?

[00:40:12] Jeff Sieh: Is it, is it all the good ones have done that kind of thing, that they, it’s not about them, it’s about other people? Like, what is the takeaway you’ve gotten in that kind of, angle of thinking about others, not themselves as being this legendary person at Disney?

[00:40:27] Lou Mongello: Yeah, I– and you picked up on, I think the most important beat and, and common thread through all of them. Every single one of these people does not take the credit themselves first. They give it to somebody else. They give it to a team. They recognize others, and the, the sort of raising up the entire collective as opposed to this is about me, this is about why I received a Disney Legend award.

[00:40:51] Lou Mongello: It’s never been that at all. And just like with the first book, every single person unprompted told a story about Walt, like an [00:41:00] emotional story about Walt. And I was like again, looking back from a 30,000 foot view, like this is what I mean about Disney and the importance of corporations hiring for culture, not just talent. You’re not just necessarily hiring the most talented person in world. You’re, you’re hiring people that realize it, it takes people to make the dream a reality, not an individual to make the dream a reality. And I love the fact that that was never anything I had to pull out. That was something that was immediately volunteered by every single one of them. Very, very, very selfless

[00:41:30] Jeff Sieh: Yeah, I thought… I just– That was the th- the whole line throughout there is they seem like very almost humble. I mean, I know, like Joe Rohde I wouldn’t consider a humble guy you know when I … But he, but he is the way he presents himself and h- and his thoughts about, you know, conservation and what he’s trying to do with the, the snow leopards and all that stuff.

[00:41:50] Jeff Sieh: And then even Bob Gurr, like you could tell because it was a live interview that o- one of the first ones you put on there, he’s a little cantankerous. Like, he’s like, “I’m old enough that I don’t care what anybody else [00:42:00] says,” right? Like he’s kinda … It’s … But it was really good to see that picture and, you know, and go that way,

[00:42:05] Lou Mongello: Now can I just very quickly, very quickly, just story. 2008, I tracked down Richard Sherman, and when I finally got him on the phone, do you know what his very first question to me was?

[00:42:14] Jeff Sieh: Yes, I do, but I’m not gonna say

[00:42:15] Lou Mongello: ” Are you sure you wanna interview me?” Now mind you, this is before D23. It’s before, like, these people were sort of put on stage and on pedestals the way they are. And I was like, “Don’t you know who you are?” But that, that genuine humility that he had and always had, was something that I, I really appreciated and respected and admired in him. And you’re right, everybody else too really has that same way about them

[00:42:43] Jeff Sieh: So speaking of humble people, we’re gonna h- be talking about Lou’s next conference coming up which if you’ve been a part of this show, for, for any amount of time, you know we talk about momentum all the time. And I wanna know from you guys who’ve gone to a lot of conferences, I know a lot of you guys are creators and, we’ve met each other at [00:43:00] conferences before, what kind of conference do you like?

[00:43:02] Jeff Sieh: A big conference or a small room? Type big or small wherever you’re, you’re, watching this from ’cause I wanna know what you guys prefer ‘Cause there’s, there’s pluses for both of them. But we’re gonna be talking about Momentum here, and I know Paul you had a question, coming up that you wanted to ask that I thought was a really good one, that I think you and Cassie workshopped.

[00:43:19] Paul Gowder: All right, Lou, you’ve been doing this for a while, since 2016. and there’s lots of people in the room that have been to a lot of them, so there’s a few that have been to every one. So what’s different this year, and what’s changed, and what… If, if you’re new, what are you coming into this year that’s, that’s gonna be a little different?

[00:43:34] Lou Mongello: I mean, fortunately or unfortunately Jeff is gonna be back. Um,

[00:43:38] Lou Mongello: you know, I, I’ve, I’ve tried but yet here he is. Look, look and, and I’m incred– The two of you have been such important parts of Momentum for so many years. And I think part about what makes momentum different is that it’s consistently not. And what I mean by that is the format while it has expanded has not really changed [00:44:00] right?

[00:44:00] Lou Mongello: It started off as a one day one room event. I always intentionally made it small and very intimate. It has grown to four because there’s so much more we wanna talk about this. There’s so much more we want to share. You know, I think w –I think 10 years ago the need and desire for information and connection was super high.

[00:44:22] Lou Mongello: I think today there’s a lot of information that you can get just by going to YouTube But there’s a lot of things that you can’t get until you are in the room with other people That clarity and discernment and focus and relationships and accountabilities and… I think people are coming into the room with more information and capability and education but they are still sometimes almost overwhelmed like than ever

[00:44:48] Lou Mongello: Like it’s not about what can I do its out of all those thing s I can do do next and how do I actually go about doing it.?And that’s why I’ve always made momentum and why I say it really hasn’t changed. It’s not a [00:45:00] conference where you run from room to room and figure out who to listen to and leave with a notebook full of notes It’s about being very action oriented.

[00:45:06] Lou Mongello: It is a workshop.You don’t Leave with forty seven pages of note and twenty seven new things on a bullet list that you’re never gonna get to Its okay , i know what matters.,i know what i have to do,, i know what i need to do next and i know who i can go to if i get stuck.. helping to sort of Figure outwhat deserves attention Helping you create Those actions stepsand doing itin a Room With intelligent People Who Areyou might Not Be OnThe Same pathbut youare Sort OfOnthe samejourney

[00:45:36] Lou Mongello: anditsIm Very Fortunateto Have Always HadA roomofpeoplewhoareso incredibly generouswith their timeandtheir Educationand Their willingnessTo Help One Another

[00:45:46] Lou Mongello: Disney Hotel Lady says, “All the fine gentlemen on screen are now currently greatly impacting my life and business.” And that’s, I thought that was really great for her to say, and that like… But it’s also that we get to [00:46:00] meet people like that at Momentum.

[00:46:01] Jeff Sieh: The reason I keep going back is because it’s like a giant mastermind of colleagues, you know, and friends that are in there. So it real- it made, it’s not only as a speaker but as a, just a businessman, like it’s, it’s greatly impacted my life as well. But, Lou, you know, we, Momentum is capped at 50 people, and everybody attends every session.

[00:46:22] Jeff Sieh: There’s no track to pick. There’s nothing to miss. So what did you learn early on that made you decide to cap it instead of grow it?

[00:46:30] Lou Mongello: So I really built the conference that I wanted to attend because of my frustration with conferences of 2,000, 4,000, 6,000 people. And I had to decide, early on what I was trying to build and what I was trying to optimize for. And like believe it or not, revenue and attendance, while they’re legitimate goals, like they were not my initial goal.

[00:46:54] Lou Mongello: They still aren’t. It, it’s about what can I do to most effectively [00:47:00] help people? And having a room with 1,000 people in it, I’m not gonna be able to reach, and touch, and talk to, and help transform, and keep people accountable to each other, and have conversations, and negotiate relationships. ‘ Cause I think scale starts to work against you and sometimes against the thing that you are promising. So at 50 people, you know, you don’t disappear into the crowd. I don’t let you disappear into the crowd. I help you get wonderfully uncomfortable sometimes. By the end of, of day four, not only do you know everybody’s name but like… And, and you guys are, are, are perfect models of this. Like you’re not a s- okay, Jeff does. You don’t just come in, speak, and get off the stage, and get into your limo, and get to your helicopter and fly away. Speakers are participants. You don’t disappear backstage. The introverted person that wants to sit in the back row all the time is not gonna sit there. Like we’re gonna make you move around.

[00:47:56] Lou Mongello: We’re gonna make you not just talk to, but work with other people, [00:48:00] and build that trust so by the end of, of day four not only have you talked about your goals and your challenges, but you know. You know, there’s a lot of sometimes emotion that’s in that room, and I think that that’s not the goal, but I think that’s such a, a beautiful like representation of the, the relationships that are made that don’t always happen in a lot of other conferences

[00:48:24] Jeff Sieh: Yeah. I totally, totally agree with that

[00:48:26] Paul Gowder: Yeah. All right, Lou, for people out there that are watching and they’re thinking, you know, “I can only afford to go to one event this year,” I mean obviously it’s an easy choice. They just go to Momentum. But th-… but they’re looking around and maybe they can’t travel or, or maybe the dates don’t line up. When they’re looking at conferences how do you tell the difference between a room that’s really gonna change my business and something that’s just there for entertainment?

[00:48:48] Paul Gowder: Or it’s, you know, it’s more of just speakers on stage without interaction. How d- how do you de- tell the difference and how, how do people go about finding the right ones

[00:48:56] Lou Mongello: So it, it’s a great question man ’cause it’s hard ’cause there’s a lot of [00:49:00] events and sometimes you can only pick one and is it, you know, because of where it is? Mine just happens to be in Walt Disney World during the Food & Wine Festival. I’m not saying that’s intentional. However

[00:49:10] Lou Mongello: it doesn’t hurt and, you know, the hotel is right across from Disney Springs and people get together after the sessions and they go to the parks or they go out to eat together which is what I love. And that’s the thing that doesn’t always come through when you look at a website, a landing page, a sales page and Eventbrite ticket. You have to be able to find out, and as an organizer sometimes it’s, it’s challenging about what happens between and after the sessions, not just who was on stage. Great speakers like you guys are incredibly valuable and so very generous and, and I cannot… Momentum doesn’t happen without the two of you, and I’m not just saying it ’cause you’re here and it’s what you told me to say

[00:49:50] Lou Mongello: but If you’re going to get on a plane and go to a hotel and pay for an event, you need to make sure that room gives you [00:50:00] something that a YouTube video or a virtual seminar cannot.

[00:50:05] Lou Mongello: You have to see who attends. Are these people you can learn from? These people you wanna net-… I hate to use the word networking because it sounds so corporate, but that you want to have relationships with. And, and I don’t know if it comes through or not, like Momentum is not about consumption, it’s about participation. You’re not just there to watch and listen, take notes and go. It’s about doing, right? It, it’s not just about dreaming it, it’s about doing it. you know, if you’re looking at other conferences, what kind of access do you have? Do you have conversations with the people who are teaching? Are you in an audience of, of 5,000 watching somebody on a giant screen?

[00:50:42] Lou Mongello: Like, what is it that you’re going for? I think you have to ask yourselves the question, like, ” What problem am I hoping this room is going to help me solve?” And are these the people, is this the place, is this the size of an event and the way that it’s structured that’s going to help me do that? A- again, momentum may not be for everybody, and that’s okay. It’s part of the [00:51:00] reason why it’s, it’s I’ve kept it intentionally

[00:51:01] Lou Mongello: small after a, a decade. I will never, never say never, but I never envision Momentum being a, a thousand person event because that’s just not what it is. it’s us being able to help each other in that small, very trusted, intimate single room

[00:51:16] Jeff Sieh: You know, Paul and I have talked a lot with… You know, when we’re talking about conferences or, or preparing for a conference and how important it is to, you know, have those conversations and go with a plan. Paul’s great at going with a plan to like when we go to Craft and Commerce or something like that, like who he wants to meet, what he wants to do, once– How the

[00:51:32] Jeff Sieh: And he has a great plan. I think that’s super important. And also the hallway conversations. Everybody talks about like the most important part of the the conference was the hallway conversations. And I say this not trying to inflate Lou’s ego any more than it is. But, that Momentum is just one big long hallway conversation.

[00:51:48] Jeff Sieh: Like there’s stuff on stage that you go and, and you do, and there’s like workshops, but it feels like it’s just a giant mastermind or the one of those c- hallway conversations where you have these unlocks that happen just [00:52:00] around the corner at unexpected times. So, that’s why I think, we really love it.

[00:52:04] Jeff Sieh: And the other thing is, is, the people you get on s- on stage, I think, like, I was r- I was shocked, but I was… It was one of my favorite things, is one year you had, and I think he’s back this year, an accountant. Like you’re like, “Oh my gosh, we’re gonna have a session from an accountant?” But that unlocked so many things for different people because that was a real need that you saw that your, the people who attend needed.

[00:52:26] Jeff Sieh: Like they need help with their finances as a creator, and it’s something that doesn’t get talked about a lot. So

[00:52:31] Jeff Sieh: that’s what I really….

[00:52:32] Lou Mongello: not like a bore, like, “Oh

[00:52:32] Lou Mongello: my God, I’m gonna sleep

[00:52:33] Jeff Sieh: Yeah.

[00:52:34] Lou Mongello: session.” Like people

[00:52:35] Lou Mongello: like…

[00:52:35] Lou Mongello: He was like a rock star after. He was

[00:52:37] Lou Mongello: he, he was being like

[00:52:38] Lou Mongello: mobbed afterwards. I’m like that’s the sign of success, right? And people are like, “How did it go as a speaker?” Like when people come up to you afterwards, like that means you had im- impact.

[00:52:47] Lou Mongello: That means they had more questions. That means they wanted to learn more, and I think that’s, … It’s a testament to that speaker, and, and being able to identify the things. Look, I, I listen as much as I talk, especially before, during, and [00:53:00] after the conference. Like where are the gaps? What do people want?

[00:53:02] Lou Mongello: I send out surveys. You know before you go, you get a very

[00:53:06] Lou Mongello: long document to help you prepare. Listen, man, you might hate it, but it helps you prepare for momentum. It helps me prepare like, oh, I need to connect Jeff with this therapist. I need to help. You, you start to identify, like Paul does, why am I going?

[00:53:22] Lou Mongello: What do I hope to get out of it? What am I looking to do? and I think also, you know, for me, you know, community is sort of like the, the…

[00:53:30] Lou Mongello: My podcast is the heart of the way I do. Community is the soul and community is not about the relationship between me and somebody else. It’s about the relationships that exist in that room when I’m not there

[00:53:41] Jeff Sieh: So, you know, Charles Rid-Ridgewh- Ridgeway said Walt’s hiring policy was to bring in young people who are willing to learn. So how do you decide who belongs in the room?

[00:53:51] Lou Mongello: Again, my judgment is somewhat skewed. Jeff is

[00:53:54] Lou Mongello: still here. I, I mean, I can’t exclude everybody. I have to sort of, you know… I’ve been very thoughtful [00:54:00] about how I design the Momentum page because I want a person to read it and be able to say, “This is for me.

[00:54:07] Lou Mongello: This is not for me.” I wanna make sure that before you buy your ticket, you know in the best possible way what you’re getting into. Like these are my people. This is where I wanna be. And I will — When people fill out those pre-arrival worksheet forms, I’ll go through them, and there are some times I’ll go through and say, “Hey, are…

[00:54:27] Lou Mongello: Like maybe this isn’t for you. Maybe we should get on a call first. Maybe we should do like a one-on-one first,” because I wanna make sure you leave momentum, like Walt wanted people to leave Disneyland not just satisfied. I want you to leave with your expectations exceeded, and I wanna make sure that I can, and the speakers and the people in the room are able to deliver on that promise for you

[00:54:47] Jeff Sieh: Yeah. And it just, it’s, if you haven’t been, it is a conference like no other. And so, um, Lou, before we wrap up, I want you to tell people where they can find out, one, about More Momentum, when it is, how to get there, how to sign up, how many seats are [00:55:00] left, and where they can find out more about you if they’re not listening to…

[00:55:04] Jeff Sieh: Like, who’s not listening to Lou on his show anymore? Like, everybody is. But in case they’re not, you might wanna mention where y- they can find out more about you.

[00:55:11] Lou Mongello: Well, first of all thank you guys for having me back. I really do appreciate it and I, I love and appreciate the both of you, and I’m not just saying that. you can go to loumongello.com/momentum. Momentum this year is October 15th through the 18th, and then there’s an optional six-person mastermind day on Monday. at the time of this recording, I think we have two, maybe three seats left. I’m not sure. still have the early bird special going on, and the super early bird special, for the one mastermind seat left because I’m human and we all make mistakes, and at one point the mastermind tickets just weren’t on the site anymore so I extended the…

[00:55:48] Lou Mongello: Or listen, it’s like when you write the book, man, there’s, mistakes are gonna, are going to get in. but yeah, that’s how you can find out more. And if you’re not sure if momentum’s right for you, email me lou@wwradio.com. I answer every email [00:56:00] personally and, and I wanna make sure that, you feel like you are definitely in the right room

[00:56:05] Jeff Sieh: And where can people find out the amazing Paul Gowder, all his things going on?

[00:56:09] Paul Gowder: Paulgowder.com. I’d love to h- have you come over and join what we’re doing over there

[00:56:14] Jeff Sieh: And Paul’s got a, a Wednesday coffee hour for people in his community so, make sure that you go check him out on Wednesdays. He does a live show, it’s really fun. I wasn’t able to do it this week ’cause I was, under the weather but I, I look forward to that. and also I just wanted to say this Lou, and I’m, I’m not gonna embarrass you and I, and I can actually strike this from the record but there’s a reason that Kevin Feige said, and this was, still blows me away, that when he was filming Iron Man which was one of the hardest things he said he ever did, that what got him through it was listening to your podcast.

[00:56:42] Jeff Sieh: One of the things that got him through it was listenin’ to your podcast which I thought is a very high testimo– testimony to your podcast but a lot of people feel the same way so thank you and continue to do what you do because I think you bring a lot of hope and joy to a lotta different people. So thank you for being on the show

[00:56:55] Jeff Sieh: again.

[00:56:56] Lou Mongello: Thank you, brother. I appreciate you guys

[00:56:58] Jeff Sieh: I want to say thank you to the [00:57:00] amazing chat room we, from Disney Hotel Lady, from Zach Brown, But Mostly Disney. Everybody who showed up we appreciate you because without you we wouldn’t have

[00:57:21] Jeff Sieh: Thanks for watching everybody. We will see you guys next time. Bye everybody

SHOW TRANSCRIPT

This transcript is automatically generated by Descript.  Any errors or omissions are unintentional.

[00:00:00] Doc Rock: I am not a special human being.

[00:00:01] Doc Rock: As a matter of fact, I am probably more stupid than most. I am fearless to a fault. Like, why would I worry about something that I can’t control? I just don’t. When it comes to this content creating stuff, ain’t afraid of nothing. It’s like, “Why aren’t you afraid somebody’s gonna say something bad?”

[00:00:15] Doc Rock: Yes, they are. I’m born Black in America. I’ve had bad stuff said to me since I could hear. You know, like, it just, it’s not gonna stop. No one’s gonna not call me fat or old or whatever. Like, hey, I’ve been listening to all of that since I had the battles, what do you call? Granimals, the husky version.

[00:00:30] Doc Rock: Th’s right. So, like, who cares, bro? I don’t care about them people. I tell you what I’m not gonna do, not gonna not eat barbecue with rich. Because somebody said I’m fat, you know? I lost 70 pounds, people still call me fat. So what? I don’t care. Like, I don’t think about that sort of stuff because I have a purpose, and my purpose is to positively impact, the lives of so many people.

[00:00:52] Doc Rock: And the only way I can do that is stay true to myself. Hello, folks. Welcome to Creator [00:01:00] News Live. I’m Jeff Sieh, and you’re not.

[00:01:02] Paul Gowder: And I’m Paul Gowder, and this is the show that keeps you up to date with the creator economy and so much more.

[00:01:07] Jeff Sieh: How much of your business would still be standing tomorrow if your biggest platform disappeared tonight?

[00:01:13] Jeff Sieh: You ever though about, building on land that you do not own, renting the reach, renting the audience and hoping rules do not change on you? And is there a thing in your setup that other people need that nobody has bothered to make that you have thought about for years and never built?

[00:01:28] Jeff Sieh: If that sounds familiar, you are in the right place.

[00:01:31] Paul Gowder: Our guest today is Doc Rock. He’s the Director of Strategic Partnerships at Ecamm and co-host of The Flow and the creator behind Doc Pops. He spent four decades across TV, radio, film, and podcasting, and he’s on a mission to remove friction from the creation process for everybody else.

[00:01:46] Paul Gowder: When he could not find a product his students needed, he designed it, he, found a factory and pre-sold the entire run to his own audience without ever touching a crowd-forming platform. Today, he’s walking us through how he did it and what it actually cost.

[00:01:59] Jeff Sieh: So sit [00:02:00] back, clear schedule, clear mind to get ready for this week’s episode of Creator News Live.

[00:02:27] Jeff Sieh: That’s right.

[00:02:27] Jeff Sieh: we’re gonna dive right in. By the way, I wanna make sure that we, because Doc is here and we have some amazing stuff coming up, but this show is always sponsored by Ecamm. You can find out more about them by going to Ecamm.com/Jeff.

[00:02:38] Jeff Sieh: You can save 15% by using the code Jeff15 by putting that in the checkout. But Paul and I are gonna be there. Doc, of course, is gonna be there. But Camp, we’re gonna be talking about Camp today. It’s coming up very, very soon. actually next month at Portsmouth, New Hampshire.

[00:02:53] Jeff Sieh: We’re gonna be over there for September 28th through the 30th. Doc, what is on schedule for that? I mean, we have so many cool [00:03:00] things. I know you wanted to talk about it a little bit.

[00:03:01] Doc Rock: Oh my God. There will be so much. The, the thing that I, I really enjoy the most is, okay, we have. Just think about it as, as a conference that’s not a conference because we didn’t wanna do a conference were everybody sits around in a circle on Kumbaya.

[00:03:13] Doc Rock: it’s one of these things where you’re gonna get in, you’re gonna get your hands dirty, you’re gonna actually sit down and make some content. But honestly, my favorite part Billy was talking about this the other day. It’s the last day when we all get together and we go sing Karaoke for all you people who mispronounce karaoke, it’s, it’s karaoke.

[00:03:32] Doc Rock: There’s no E in that word at the beginning. And oh my God, it’s so much fun and we have an absolute blast. And it’s a great place for creators who have been kinda stuck in various places and are looking to get out of being stuck and they actually wanna get down and make something. It’s a great place to show up.

[00:03:49] Doc Rock: And if you use Jeff’s code, you can get 50 bucks off.

[00:03:52] Jeff Sieh: That’s right. And by the way, Paul is speaking there. He’s gonna be talking. What are you talking about, Paul? What’s your – All three

[00:03:57] Doc Rock: of us are speaking there.

[00:03:58] Jeff Sieh: That’s right.

[00:03:58] Paul Gowder: Yeah. I’ll be talking about [00:04:00] live streaming doing onsite productions.

[00:04:02] Jeff Sieh: And Doc, what’s your, what’s your session about?

[00:04:05] Doc Rock: Man, I forgot. Oh yeah. I forgot. Dude, you know what time it is? Mary Lou and I will be helping people get their studio together. We’re gonna help polish all the kinks out of your studio. And strange enough, I have been rebuilding my studio now and it’s been a lot of fun, so I can’t wait to get in and it’s always a, a catalyst for me to remove everything and rewire everything and slim line certain things down.

[00:04:30] Doc Rock: And yeah, it’s kind of fun.

[00:04:31] Jeff Sieh: Yeah, Doc and I’ll be, uh, nerding out about 3D printing because, uh, we’ve got, I got some new, files to share with you about some organization stuff that’ll be cool. But I’m gonna be talking all about how I set up the show with AI. Like this is like the actually how we put it all together, how you guys can, uh, do a, an amazing show flow for your live show.

[00:04:46] Jeff Sieh: Even your design, all that kind of stuff. It’s all gonna be talking about how we can use AI to help us do that while still remaining human. So go to Ecamm.com/camp to find out all about it. But we’re here to talk about Doc today. So we wanna [00:05:00] talk about how he actually has built this product, Doc Pops, but I wanna know from the audience, I want you to be honest, do you actually own anything in your business or are you renting all of it?

[00:05:11] Jeff Sieh: So tell me in the comments, put own or rent wherever you’re watching from, own or rent. I, I would say I mostly rent. I have a couple things that I own, but I wanna own more. So we’re gonna be talking about that today, with Doc. So Doc, I just wanna get right into it. You have spent four decades in TV, radio, film, podcasting, all of it you’ve been making content throughout.

[00:05:34] Jeff Sieh: So what made you decide on the next thing you built should be this physical product instead of course or a video or something like that?

[00:05:43] Doc Rock: You know, it’s, it’s funny that, that question because it is the typical answer for many people who end up in a situation like this. It scratch my own itch. Legit was scratching my own itch.

[00:05:54] Doc Rock: And once I decided to do it, I was like, you might as well just go all in. [00:06:00] Like if you’re gonna do it, you might as well do it because my dad used to say, like I would go to my dad and be like, “Dad, I need 20 bucks for so-and-so.” And he’d be like, “Give me 20 bucks” and be like, “Youre stupid.” I’m like, “What?” He goes, “You should ask me for 100.”

[00:06:11] Doc Rock: And I’m like, “Why?” He goes, “It took the same amount of energy to ask me for 100 bucks as it did to ask me for 20. Now I would’ve told you to, to, you know, pound sand, but I probably would’ve gave you 50. So you’d have walked out $30 in the positive.”

[00:06:24] Jeff Sieh: Mm.

[00:06:24] Doc Rock: And then I was like, “Yeah, you’re right.” And he goes, “Okay.

[00:06:27] Doc Rock: Also, don’t just ask me, ask me, as mom, as grandma, as granddad. Now you walking out with 200 bones.” And I’m like, “Yeah. Mom, can I get a horse? Why can’t you get a dog like the rest of the kids?” Okay. So I got a dog. Yeah,

[00:06:42] Jeff Sieh: yeah, yeah.

[00:06:42] Doc Rock: Believe what you do.

[00:06:43] Jeff Sieh: Mm-hmm. Very, very cool.

[00:06:45] Paul Gowder: So It started with a problem, right?

[00:06:47] Paul Gowder: You. And I know. Tell us about the product, first of all. Walk us through like how you realized that nobody was doing this and that you wanted to actually solve it.

[00:06:54] Doc Rock: Okay. So, well, there was a company that was making it, but couple things that I didn’t like [00:07:00] about the product that already exist. I. Most of what I saw available, the most primary one, I won’t throw their name under the bus, but it was a company that’s out of Netherlands and they were taking basically what we would, in the business would just call a, a, uh, thin stamped type of foam situation.

[00:07:17] Doc Rock: And the colors were bland, number one. The colors were just bland. And then they had a bunch of options, but they weren’t fancy. They were a little bit thin. They were actually thinner than what comes on most of the, uh, what we would call the inexpensive microphones. Now, you know, I love shore microphones and road microphones, things like that.

[00:07:36] Doc Rock: So they come with better screens, but they’re black. And I was like, “I want something that will allow people to show their invi – individuality. But I also wanted something that, well, popped.” And because that’s what the, you know, clients used to say when I’m doing graphic design. “Oh, can you make it pop? Like, what the heck does that mean?

[00:07:53] Doc Rock: So I, so as I was looking around and I was like, you know, nothing out here exists. I, [00:08:00] I got, a white one and I hit it with some airbrush paint and I was like,” Uh, it’s, it’s getting there. It’s getting there. “But I realized what the biggest problem was, is that the foam was thin. I. Only place I can get it from was the Netherlands, and to ship it back to the US was literally like 65 bucks long before tariffs even existed.

[00:08:19] Doc Rock: So I can imagine what it would cost today. Yeah. And I was like,” No, that’s just crazy. “So I just said,” Wha happens if I tried to make it? “And well, I started a, one of these ADHD hyperfixation rabbit holes got myself in a whole bunch of trouble.

[00:08:34] Jeff Sieh: so like most creators think that the only options are like courses, coaching, or sponsorships, right?

[00:08:40] Jeff Sieh: Like I’ve done all of those. So what does owning a physical product give you that those three do not as a businessman?

[00:08:48] Doc Rock: It sounds crazy, but it’s something that you normally can easily turn into other things. It. I don’t know. It sounds corny, but it’s something [00:09:00] tangible. You literally have it in your hand.

[00:09:02] Doc Rock: You can, you know, you can. It’s tactile. You can, you know, put some oof behind it. And honestly, I think because of the level of difficulty, people take it a little bit more serious. And I don’t really care what they think per se, but they just do, right? You know, like it is one of those things where I do believe people just take it more seriously.

[00:09:23] Doc Rock: I don’t understand why, but –

[00:09:24] Paul Gowder: Well, I, I, it’s.

[00:09:25] Doc Rock: I’m not a brain scientist.

[00:09:26] Paul Gowder: Yeah. I, I think it’s like writing a book. Like it, it does give you a certain level of respect and authority. Having your own physical product is different than just a, a digital product. Now –

[00:09:37] Doc Rock: Just call it gravy toss.

[00:09:39] Paul Gowder: Yeah. Gravy

[00:09:39] Doc Rock: toss.

[00:09:41] Paul Gowder: So you’re manufacturing your, with your old radio program director who lives in China and is making Funko Pops.

[00:09:47] Paul Gowder: So how much of that was a plan and how much of it was just your network paying off years later?

[00:09:53] Doc Rock: Well, it became a plan because one day as I was sitting around fighting the idea, I was like, “You’re such a dummy. You can make [00:10:00] anything in the world you want.” I look in my office and I’m like 99.8% of the stuff in this room is made in China with the exception of me and the roaches.

[00:10:11] Doc Rock: So I was like, “Hey, I should just hit up, I should just hit up out.” And not only is my program director, but literally one of my best friends in the whole planet, you know? And I was like, “Yo, it’s really dumb. Like why, why didn’t you think of this?” And so as I, as we did the, the work together and stuff like that, he goes, “Hey, if you know anybody else who needs to make anything, let me know.”

[00:10:30] Doc Rock: And so I talked to Kathy Hester because she says, “Yeah, I have this idea for a kitchen thing that I’ve been noodling through my head forever.” So I connected them together so they could work on products. And also realized after. And around about the same time, I wouldn’t say after, because it’s not like it was a callus or anything, a bunch of other creator friends started making products.

[00:10:47] Doc Rock: Now, there’s a couple different ways to do this. One is you make your own thing. Or two, if there’s a brand that you really, really like and you work with them a lot and, you know, you already have that sort of established thing together, you can talk to them about an [00:11:00] idea that you have and maybe they already have the means and the marketing channels and all of that stuff to build something.

[00:11:04] Doc Rock: And I just realized yesterday, one of my favorite YouTube creators, Chris Brockhurst, also a friend of mine, he just came up with a new camera mount that he’s, you know, selling through Condor Blue. And Condor Blue collaborates with, you know, the, the camera creators a lot. They, they make a lot of various things.

[00:11:20] Doc Rock: And my buddy Cam Magi, he is a really incredible photographer, does a lot of work with, you know, the First Nations and Native American sort of models and things of that nature. He did a light last Christmas with Zi Yun, which everybody calls, uh, the wrong name, but it’s Zion. And he has a really incredible light that they put up as the Cam Magi Rambler light.

[00:11:42] Doc Rock: So you, it can be done various ways. You don’t have to go and run out and find a whole marketing force, but man on man, on man, it is well worth it if you see a results and say, “Hey, results.” “I wanna put, like, a shirt for other people that are, like, you know, podcasting [00:12:00] or something of that nature. Like, let’s get the Gowda shirt.

[00:12:02] Doc Rock: I’m buying one.”

[00:12:03] Jeff Sieh: That’s right. Paul has some amazing shirts, but he, you need to design your own. I’ve been trying. Yeah. Yeah. I’ve

[00:12:09] Doc Rock: been trying to get them into all. Yeah, design your own and, and, and link up with results. I’m sure they would do it for you, you know, especially if you could come up with something that’s kind of incredible.

[00:12:16] Doc Rock: I would do it, for sure.

[00:12:17] Jeff Sieh: Yeah. So I wanted to ask, because a lot of people in the comments, they’re, they’re saying, when I ask, you know, “Do you wanna own or rent?” A lot of people are. They w. Some of them own, but a lot of people wanna own more. Like, uh, Linda says, “I. 54 – fifty fifty own rent using AI to own more.

[00:12:32] Jeff Sieh: Super smart, Linda.” But what would you tell somebody who’s kind of gone, like, ” What did you get wrong about how hard this would be?” Like, looking back at putting this together, what did you get wrong that was how hard it would be?

[00:12:44] Doc Rock: Jeff, why gonna drag me through the dirt? Um, so one, one of the first things that I totally, totally forgot about, and I should know better because when, when my buddy’s company started doing work with, uh, the [00:13:00] Funko company and helping them make Funko Pops and things of that nature, I went to go teach them some project management stuff, and I got to hang out there for dang near a month running around and doing all these things.

[00:13:10] Doc Rock: When you go to produce something that has to be molded, you have to build molds. And I got the crazy idea to add pod mic as one of the shapes.

[00:13:22] Paul Gowder: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:22] Doc Rock: And the pod mic mold didn’t exist, so I had to build a mold for that. And then what the capabilities were for the molds that were out for SM7B and MB7 was not as thick as I wanted and could not handle the heat of the acoustic foam when it’s in liquid format.

[00:13:42] Doc Rock: So I had to produce molds. And when you have to produce mold, yo, that can get expensive, right? Molds are not cheap, especially depending on what material you’re pouring. And so my molds were almost 40Gs.

[00:13:56] Jeff Sieh: Wow. Okay. Before you take this, that question, Paul, I wanted to ask, [00:14:00] I want to ask this. So, because I know pricing, no matter if you’re a service-based or you’re doing, you know, a product, how did you figure out the end pricing?

[00:14:09] Jeff Sieh: ‘Cause I know, like, it’s actually. I think it’s either, like, a dollar cheaper than it used to be, or. I mean, I know you’re doing sales and stuff like that. So how did you decide on the, the final pricing or the launch pricing, actually, uh, when you, when you first went out?

[00:14:22] Doc Rock: Two things I did. Number one, I didn’t wanna be in one of those situations, and I’m not gonna say this is set in stone because I might change my mind one day.

[00:14:31] Doc Rock: I didn’t wanna be in this situation where, I’m like, “Oh, um, this is the only time it’s ever gonna be this price,” and then later on, “Oh, look, it’s this price again.” Like, I don’t know. It drives me crazy when people do that. Especially when you hit those websites, people who use a site that rhymes with Pilabi, where every time I go in, I only have 15 minutes to get it at this price.

[00:14:53] Jeff Sieh: Right.

[00:14:54] Doc Rock: I don’t know. I have a feeling about it, you know? Like, I’m, I’m. I, I guess I’ll be truthful. I think I’m a very [00:15:00] particular guy. I am very particular about very particular things. That one is like, “Come on, son. Come on.” Yeah. And so I didn’t wanna go through that, but I also wanted to make sure that everybody in the planet could get a hold of this with, like, a set shipping.

[00:15:15] Doc Rock: So the hardest thing was be. When I was able to ship it directly from Hong Kong, I could get it to anywhere in the planet for 12 bucks.

[00:15:23] Jeff Sieh: Mm.

[00:15:24] Doc Rock: And again, our friend put tariffs on and ruined my life because I immediately had to stop international shipping. Because now, if I wanted to ship something to, like, my buddies in London, yo, it’s back to, like, 50 bucks.

[00:15:37] Doc Rock: And that was terrible. Like, when I had it all coming directly out of Hong Kong. So the other big slap in the face was, after about seven, eight months into it, everything’s moving just quickly, so fast, so gorgeously, I had to fly everything home from Hong Kong to Honolulu, and I had hit with, like, eight grand in tariffs.

[00:15:56] Doc Rock: So pick something light. My stuff is light. Imagine if it was heavy. [00:16:00]

[00:16:00] Jeff Sieh: So how do you, how do you navigate that? Like, because that stuff just happens in, like, do you just have to rush and change your pricing or go to your website and take it down?

[00:16:07] Doc Rock: I didn’t change my pricing. I left my pricing the same.

[00:16:09] Doc Rock: I just ate the eight grand because I set a standard for my people and, you know, it’s just funny. And I, again, don’t think I’m special. Matter of fact, I’m probably the stupidest businessman to ever walk in the face of the earth. Everybody else would’ve said, “Raise the price, move it on to the customers.” I didn’t wanna do that, so I just ate it.

[00:16:25] Jeff Sieh: Mm. Well, that –

[00:16:27] Doc Rock: And this, I just l – chalked it up as that when, when I see Jeff and Paul, we drinking tapered whiskey.

[00:16:33] Jeff Sieh: Not with Paul. Paul.

[00:16:35] Doc Rock: Yeah, not with me neither. I don’t even know why I’m out here lying. Don’t even say that. I do not know why I’m out here lying.

[00:16:41] Paul Gowder: I’ve got some good samples that may, uh, may come with me when we head north in September,

[00:16:44] Doc Rock: so.

[00:16:45] Doc Rock: So I was talking to Jeff earlier. I was like, “Yo, I gotta, I gotta step my game up this year. I’m gonna bring some Japanese stuff out here to Paul.” Yeah. All right. And, you know, normally, I carry on only, but I have to actually check a bag so I can bring some, some good Japanese. I got some, some Tokubitokoto, otherwise, [00:17:00] special stuff that I got directly from the factories.

[00:17:02] Doc Rock: Ooh. And sadly enough, right after I come back from camp, I’m going to the Niko factory in Sapoto, like, about two weeks after camp.

[00:17:08] Paul Gowder: Sweet. Nice. Sweet. All right, so for the creator that’s sitting out there that, like Kathy, who has this idea in their head and have always wanted to do this, what would you tell them?

[00:17:19] Paul Gowder: How to get started? They have zero product ideas. They have zero manufacturing conte – contacts. Where do they get started?

[00:17:25] Doc Rock: Man, you know what’s really cool? My buddy Jeff is super, super like me, like, Lives in AI. I would be like, “You listened to all my content. You made all of my content. You helped me do stuff.

[00:17:37] Doc Rock: What would be a physical product that I would be proud of and my audience would dig?” At the time I had this though, if, if Chat or Claude was around, I probably would have never made Doc Pops. It would have been like, ding dong, this is gonna – Too expensive. This is gonna set you back. It’s gonna set you.

[00:17:53] Doc Rock: You know how many Leicas you could’ve bought with all of that craziness? So, yeah. But I would definitely say that, right? [00:18:00] Like, I would look at somebody like, like Jimmy or even Dustin, man. I would make a, I would make a, a magic wand or something that, you know, just is a, a. It’s almost like a merch, but it’s also something because product is magic.

[00:18:14] Doc Rock: And so make a magic wand. All the fans just buy. Something that’s a little bit different than a T-shirt or a hat or a cup or whatever, you know. Make a ma- Magi patches, you know, different levels of cool. I don’t know. Yeah. Which I’ve made patches before. I made hats. I made. I guess because I had a clothing company, I had some, I had some experience in making things, so yeah, that’s my first step would be talk to your bot and ask them or talk to your audience.

[00:18:38] Doc Rock: Like is there something that’s missing, something that drives you crazy? For us 3D printer people, for instance, the thing that drives all of us nuts is the amount of crap that goes into what we affectionately call the poop shoot. Right. And there is two or three of them on the market right now. I don’t think that means there’s too many.

[00:18:55] Doc Rock: There are a couple of different ways to take all of the poop and dump it into something that [00:19:00] can grind it up and turn it back into filament. And again, I can only think of two or three in the market right now. Look at two of those, look and like, these would be good if they had X. Here’s what drives me crazy.

[00:19:09] Doc Rock: And you know this. This, next week, next week, Apple’s gonna be like, “Hey, here’s a brand new phone.” And everybody’s gonna go like, “Blah, blah, blah. It should have this. It should do this. It should do this.” I- instead of it shoulda do, make something. If you think you could do better, then make it yourself. Now, you may not be able to have the, the money to come out and generate a whole ass phone, hey, but a whole bunch of other companies did, right, that aren’t as big as Apple.

[00:19:30] Doc Rock: Like the nothing phone came out. Here’s a guy who was living in thing. I like all these things all these phones make, but it’s missing these things. So he made a nothing phone. Same with, uh, a couple of other different phones that are out there. So yeah, like if you really got, if you really wanna talk that game on the internet, then make your own.

[00:19:45] Jeff Sieh: so would you say like something, like let’s say, maybe they’re a YouTuber or a, they, they host webinars or a podcast. Would you say the first thing to dip your toe in the water is to use like maybe Fourth Wall, create those stickers, those t-shirts, that kind of thing? [00:20:00] Like, do you, do you survey your audience first and ask what they want or you just put it out there?

[00:20:03] Jeff Sieh: Like what, what would you, when you would walk a creator who’s like, “Hey, I wanna have a product. I don’t know where to start. I’ve heard Fourth Wall’s good.” What would you tell them?

[00:20:10] Doc Rock: I would def – Fourth wall is the answer, 100%. And I would definitely surf the customers first and be like, “Hey, gang, is there anything out here that you would really, really wanna see?”

[00:20:22] Doc Rock: I see so many of the creators doing things like, “Hey, we’re gonna do this writing challenge. We’re gonna do this gratitude journal, gratitude journal challenge X, Y, Z.” You know how easy it is to get a book made, like a plain book with no words in it?

[00:20:35] Jeff Sieh: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:36] Doc Rock: I mean, you guys know what it’s like to make a book with actual words in it.

[00:20:39] Doc Rock: You know you could call the same company and be like, “Let me get a book made with no words in it.” And then if you have writing prompts, the same writing prompts that you’re gonna send them via kit.com or whatever, put them in paper and, and you could build it in Canva and you can send it to Amazon ADP.

[00:20:56] Doc Rock: KDP. I mean, if I’ve used the wrong words, Google it, fam, don’t get me stuck. [00:21:00] Well, Paul’s done it. Yeah.You could le – Yeah, yeah. You could legit make the, make a book with all your stuff in it. So if you have all of your, your greatest hits, send it out through Amazon ADP and, and produce a, a book out of it.

[00:21:13] Doc Rock: Like, it, again, it’s more tangible. It is legit more tangible.

[00:21:17] Jeff Sieh: Yeah. So I know one, and Paul, I’d love to have you talk about the KDP program a little bit, just to, if people wanna do what Paul Doc was saying. But I, like, the first one I remember was, and he’s a speaker at Creator Camp, is Michael Hyatt came out with his productivity journal way back in the day.

[00:21:32] Jeff Sieh: Yeah. And I bought that and I got the, like, he even sold the digital version of it, which I don’t think he does anymore because it’s easy. It’s just like. Yeah, exactly. And you can, you could do something like that specific. I though about doing one for a, like, what I do with AI and, and production kind of stuff.

[00:21:47] Jeff Sieh: But Paul, talk about how easy it is really quick on the KDP, because I think a lot of people are interested in that, taking it that direction.

[00:21:53] Paul Gowder: Yeah, it’s a super simple process. Literally, like Doc said, you can go to Canva, design it, and this, just export the [00:22:00] files and upload it straight into KDP. They’ll walk you through the steps of laying out the cover, putting the, uh, barcode on it, all that stuff is, is, yeah, it’s just, it’s a wizard, you know, wizards step by step by step.

[00:22:11] Jeff Sieh: Yeah.

[00:22:12] Paul Gowder: I’ve got, what, four or five books in there now? Super easy. Yeah, it’s

[00:22:16] Jeff Sieh: great. And, and you’ve even done a coloring book, right? Like for –

[00:22:18] Paul Gowder: Yeah, we’ve got three different coloring books. Yeah.

[00:22:21] Jeff Sieh: Yeah. So So – I’m

[00:22:22] Doc Rock: gonna show you a small one, Jeff.

[00:22:24] Jeff Sieh: Sure.

[00:22:24] Doc Rock: This here is called 33 Glasses of Whiskey. It is a pocket size notebook.

[00:22:30] Jeff Sieh: That’s what Paul

[00:22:30] Doc Rock: eat drinks for lunch. That has. Yeah, like, whiskey name, distiller, origin, age, price, samples, star ratings, notes. It has a color meter and then, like, a cue wheel at the bottom. A Q wheel is like a tasting. And, like, again, not even expensive. You could probably sell these suckers for what I would say is, like, 10 bucks a piece, and, or maybe less.

[00:22:50] Doc Rock: That’s up to you, but this is very easy to make, and you can pull this together in Canva in about, mm, two prompts.

[00:22:58] Jeff Sieh: Right. [00:23:00] And that’s something like our friend, Jennifer, who does the bourbon cabin, that would be something amazing for her to do really, really easy. So, yeah, don’t, don’t think about it. Wait,

[00:23:08] Doc Rock: where’s the bourbon cabin?

[00:23:08] Doc Rock: How do I get there?

[00:23:10] Jeff Sieh: Well, Paul’s got directions. And then Dustin says –

[00:23:13] Doc Rock: Thanks Paul.

[00:23:13] Jeff Sieh: So true. And it’s. I’m so excited to have him at camp, but he says if it wasn’t for Michael Hyatt, he wouldn’t be where he is today. He’s a legend. So, yes, big shout out to Michael Hyatt. Amazing. So, I wanna ask, because we’re gonna get into, like, how Doc actually launched it, kind of his strategy behind it.

[00:23:28] Jeff Sieh: But I wanna know, in the audience, have you ever pre-sold something before it actually existed? So, type yes or never wherever you’re watching from. And, uh, I’d love to know what you guys think. Have you ever pre-sold something? I’ve done it, mm, a couple times for digital things. Paul, did you. And Doc, when.

[00:23:45] Jeff Sieh: Did you pre-sell. Um, you did pre-sell your Doc Pops, correct? Didn’t before you

[00:23:50] Doc Rock: started?

[00:23:50] Jeff Sieh: Yes, I did. Okay.

[00:23:51] Doc Rock: I, I basically did it as a fourth wall style launch, and yeah, it’s crazy. I though about doing a Kickstarter, but [00:24:00] I’m like, at the moment that I decided to go ham on these molds, and then, of course, I did the thing you probably shouldn’t do.

[00:24:08] Doc Rock: It’s. I just slapped them on the Amex, dog. Amex ain’t got no limit. I was like, “Yo, wait a minute. You got 30 days to, like, pay that Amex bill.” So, I. If you do Kickstarter and you miss, you get nothing.

[00:24:24] Jeff Sieh: Yeah.

[00:24:24] Doc Rock: So, I was like, “I don’t even wanna take that chance. I will take what I get. It won’t be as much as if I did Kickstarter, but at least I know it’s coming, something’s coming.”

[00:24:33] Doc Rock: So, that’s why I did Self-Starter as opposed to Kickstarter. And I’ve actually successfully run 11 Kickstarter campaigns for various people, so I had a lot of experience running Kickstarter, so I know what the, the, the hiccups and the foibles were. And Kickstarter’s a platform kinda lost me because I, I love Peak Design.

[00:24:52] Doc Rock: One of my favorite brands on the planet. I have a whole bunch of Peak Design stuff. They should not be allowed on [00:25:00] Kickstarter.

[00:25:01] Jeff Sieh: I, I agree.

[00:25:02] Doc Rock: It’s just not, it’s not what it’s for, dog. It’s not for you. And when I see the bigger companies launching a product on Kickstarter, I’m like, “Bro, you’re jacking it up for everybody.

[00:25:15] Doc Rock: You have a whole marketing team.” And Kickstarter literally says in the paperwork, it’s not designed to be a pre-sales thing, right? It’s designed to help people launch products. So, here’s companies that you got the $2 million to go start the new bag, dog. Like, get your butt off the platform and stop using it for pre-sales.

[00:25:35] Doc Rock: And I would tell them to their damn face. I love their stuff. And I’m like, “You guys…” I’ve been saying that since their second product. Yeah. After they launched their second one and it was successful, when they tried to do number three, I was like, “Get off the platform, my guy.” And I, it’s. I’m on record. I’m on eight podcasts saying it.

[00:25:50] Doc Rock: I will go straight to their office and tell them to their face. They’re ruining it for normal folks.

[00:25:54] Jeff Sieh: Yeah.

[00:25:54] Doc Rock: Because I, at that point, I was on, like, Kickstarter campaign number 10. And we happened to launch the last [00:26:00] one on the same day Peak launched, which is terrible. You don’t wanna be after Peak or somebody who has feet in the game doing the same thing.

[00:26:07] Doc Rock: Uh, Keychron, my favorite keyboards. They be on there everytime. Yeah. I’m like, Keychron, cut it out, bro. Yeah.

[00:26:11] Paul Gowder: And Peak’s on there all the. They’re, they’re launching every product through it now, it seems like.

[00:26:15] Doc Rock: Yeah. Nova does the same thing. The platform lets them get away with it because they get their cut.

[00:26:19] Doc Rock: I mean, I get it. I get it, Kickstarter. You get 5% of their cut when they do 10 million a bag, $2 million of bags in two days, they get their 5%. So I get it. For Kickstarter, like, it, it probably keeps them afloat, but I don’t know. It just, it just ruined the idea of the platform, so –

[00:26:34] Jeff Sieh: Yeah.

[00:26:34] Doc Rock: Yeah, just though it was safer not to do that.

[00:26:35] Jeff Sieh: It seems a lot of them are doing that. Now, I have a friend who was pretty successful until what you were mentioning before, the tariffs. He, he had a, a physical, board games. He would create board games and he would sell them on Kickstarter. And there’s a huge gaming community over there that – Oh, yes.

[00:26:48] Jeff Sieh: That will do that. But then the, like, he’d have to buy containers full of these games and pieces and, like, it just got crazy with the tariffs and it, it really hurt his business. But, yeah, it can be really good for some people.

[00:26:59] Doc Rock: One thing [00:27:00] I’ll say about that, MOQ’s, uh, medium order quantity is smaller than most people think, though.

[00:27:06] Doc Rock: A lot of the manufacturers will tell you that their MOQ is 10,000 or 20,000. That’s what they say, but they also don’t wanna not work. So if you’re like, “Listen, we’re gonna do a 2,000 unit sample run and you’re gonna be cool with it.” And because mine told me, like, my MOQ was 100 grand, and I’m like, “No, I’m not doing 100,000 pieces.”

[00:27:26] Doc Rock: But I did have to do. I had to do, like, 4,000 of each. Yeah, each color.

[00:27:32] Jeff Sieh: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:32] Doc Rock: And I was like, “No, here’s what’s gonna happen. I’m ordering six colors, and what we’re gonna do is we’re gonna add up until we get slightly higher than the number you want, but slightly less than the number that I want.”

[00:27:43] Paul Gowder: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:44] Doc Rock: Right? And then we’re gonna make it work, and we’re gonna count each color, each model. So SM7B is one model. I don’t care that they’re in different colors. And the same with the, the, the pod mic version and the MB7 version. And we fought back and forth a little bit, and then they were like, “Okay.” We [00:28:00] didn’t want.

[00:28:00] Doc Rock: They didn’t wanna lose the things. I was like, “I was just gonna say forget it.” But then they were like, “Yeah.” They hit me back, like, two days later, go, “Okay, yeah, we’ll do it.” Now, it did cost me a little more to make all the various colors, and so I love when people just say, “Hey, can you make yellow?” Bro, I’m not sitting here spray-painting myself, my guy.

[00:28:14] Doc Rock: Like, if I make yellow, I gotta order 4,000 of them. Mm-hmm. Do you got 4,000 other friends that want yellow? You know? And so that, that part becomes a little challenging. Or My favorite one, and again, I, I understand people don’t know, and I think people would buy better if they knew how stuff was made.

[00:28:31] Doc Rock: People were like, “Oh, are you gonna make some that fit like the DGI Mike three?” And I’m like, “No, like absolutely not. Dude, you could use a cotton ball from your dang wife’s dresser.”

[00:28:42] Jeff Sieh: Right.

[00:28:43] Doc Rock: Sorry.

[00:28:44] Jeff Sieh: Right.

[00:28:44] Paul Gowder: Oh,

[00:28:45] Doc Rock: sorry. You guys know I’m feisty at. I know, I

[00:28:50] Jeff Sieh: know.

[00:28:51] Paul Gowder: I, I mean, I think yellow, you need to just go find all the Savannah Banana – Oh, that’s right.

[00:28:55] Paul Gowder: Podcasters out there.

[00:28:56] Doc Rock: Man, see, I should’ve collabed with the bananas. Dude, [00:29:00] they have grown so much. I love them so much. They are so funny.

[00:29:03] Jeff Sieh: So good.

[00:29:04] Doc Rock: So

[00:29:04] Jeff Sieh: good to see you.

[00:29:05] Doc Rock: Quite amazing.

[00:29:06] Paul Gowder: All right. Let’s go back to the creator who’s out there and listening today and, and spinning on all the stuff they could do with the product.

[00:29:11] Paul Gowder: You talked about, you know, putting it all on your Amex and, but what should a creator think about as far as like the, the gap between taking presales and actually putting the product in hand? There’s some cash flow and managing the nerves of that too. It, it’s kinda hard. So how did, how do you actually advise people to get through that step?

[00:29:29] Doc Rock: Okay. One thing is I don’t think a lot of people tell their. I don’t think a lot of people who buy stuff from Kickstarter understand or a lot of people who do things or kick oriented campaigns or self-funded campaigns do. The person who’s making this thing will 112% run into manufacturing hiccups. If they do not, they were cheating and they were preselling a product that was already made that they slapped their name on.

[00:29:51] Doc Rock: Let’s be dead honest with that. I’m gonna put that down to brass tacks. It is very hard to get all of [00:30:00] these things with no trouble. So when I see people on, you know, various platforms yelling at some company because they put something out and they didn’t get theirs yet, I’m like, “Bro, this, what they’re doing is hard.

[00:30:10] Doc Rock: Relax. Give them a second.” You know? Now, have I bought things on the, on the start that just never came out? Absolutely. But it says in the documentation, don’t put money on this unless you’re willing to throw it into the wind, right? But that is the whole point of being a micro investor, if you will. That’s a good way to think of it, right?

[00:30:29] Doc Rock: Mm-hmm. If we were gonna start the Doc Jeff and Paul Whiskey Cafe, and then everybody put money in, at some point James is gonna be like, “Are y’all actually gonna open it? Y’all sitting in the back drinking the profits?” And we’ll be like, “Jimmy, you’re the dummy that gave us the money. Hey, you should check out this single malt.”

[00:30:46] Doc Rock: So you have to know that that’s a possibility. So I did think that stuff through. I, I, even my product came out like a month later than I wanted it to, but I was, I was foot in the butt of them like every day, like, hurry up, hurry up, hurry up, like whatever. [00:31:00] And ev – they run into problems when you’re producing like, you know, 30,000 units or something.

[00:31:04] Doc Rock: It just happens. Mm-hmm. Um, I also think that when it comes to like, you know, figuring out pricing is extremely hard no matter what. I am not a special human being.

[00:31:13] Doc Rock: As a matter of fact, I am probably more stupid than most. I am fearless to a fault. Like, why would I worry about something that I can’t control? I just don’t. When it comes to this content creating stuff, ain’t afraid of nothing. It’s like, “Why aren’t you afraid somebody’s gonna say something bad?”

[00:31:27] Doc Rock: Yes, they are. I’m born Black in America. I’ve had bad stuff said to me since I could hear. You know, like, it just, it’s not gonna stop. No one’s gonna not call me fat or old or whatever. Like, hey, I’ve been listening to all of that since I had the battles, what do you call? Granimals, the husky version.

[00:31:42] Doc Rock: Th’s right. So, like, who cares, bro? I don’t care about them people. I tell you what I’m not gonna do, not gonna not eat barbecue with rich. Because somebody said I’m fat, you know? I lost 70 pounds, people still call me fat. So what? I don’t care. Like, I don’t think about that sort of stuff because I have a [00:32:00] purpose, and my purpose is to positively impact, the lives of so many people.

[00:32:04] Doc Rock: And the only way I can do that is stay true to myself.

[00:32:07] Jeff Sieh: That’s right.

[00:32:07] Doc Rock: They’re like, “Well, I though it was 150.” That was before I had to unF somebody else’s problem. So now I gotta unf somebody else’s problem if there’s a penalty for that.

[00:32:16] Doc Rock: But yeah, you really have to think it through and be, be willing to, A, know you’re gonna run into hiccups, be very upfront with people that you’re gonna run into hiccups. Tell them that they probably will run into hiccups also do a little thinking about your price. Again, your community can help you with that.

[00:32:32] Doc Rock: They can tell you what they think they’re willing to pay. And the advantage of pre-selling it is you know what you’re gonna do. So if you’re gonna do a course, right? I, some of the best course creators I heard told me that they sold the course before they wrote the course.

[00:32:46] Paul Gowder: Mm-hmm. So

[00:32:46] Doc Rock: that way they knew it was a viable situation.

[00:32:49] Paul Gowder: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:49] Doc Rock: And then if you give yourself. Actually, when I did my first course, I sold the course before I fully wrote it. I had the outline, I put the upline up to see if anybody would buy it. I launched it and [00:33:00] then I got like 50 some odd students on like the first day. I was like, “Oh, this works. This covers it.

[00:33:06] Doc Rock: It will be worth my while to do this.” So then I sat down and I did the course.

[00:33:09] Jeff Sieh: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:10] Doc Rock: And I, I learned that from about seven different people.

[00:33:12] Jeff Sieh: Yeah. I want you to talk a little bit about the, the lead off into like, you know, actually manufacturing. Like let’s walk me through the sample rounds. Like how many prototypes did you have before you were happy with and felt good about putting your name on it?

[00:33:25] Jeff Sieh: Like how long did that process take?

[00:33:27] Doc Rock: Year.

[00:33:28] Jeff Sieh: Really?

[00:33:29] Doc Rock: Wow. Okay. Yeah. Okay. ‘Cause I’m a, I’m a Virgo a-hole in particular, like yeah. All right, so for instance, the, one of the manufacturers we talked about before, and I won’t throw the name on the bus, they do what would. I was looking for a second one, so I’m gonna make noise.

[00:33:43] Doc Rock: Everybody hold your ear. If you look inside of mine, it’s flat, it’s clean, like it doesn’t have any, it doesn’t have anything where somebody actually pulled the things out. Mm-hmm. On the, the cheaper models, they basically take a hot knife and it goes around to make the hole and then somebody just [00:34:00] pulls all the stuff out.

[00:34:01] Jeff Sieh: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:01] Doc Rock: And that’s what they sent me. And I was like, “What are we doing here?” And they was like, “Oh, that’s how you do it.” I was like, “No, no, no, no. I need my cutout.” And they’re like, “Well, that means we need to have a, a machine that’s gonna invert it and then a machine that’s gonna cut it clean.” I was like, “All right, cool.”

[00:34:13] Doc Rock: And they’re like, “Well, that’s gonna raise the price by about $1.25 a unit.” And I was like, “Okay, cool.” And they’re like, “But you already set the price on the thing.” I’m like, “Yeah, I’ll eat that too because I am not putting out a plucked out inside because on the top, we address the top of the mic.”

[00:34:29] Jeff Sieh: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:29] Doc Rock: If it has various levels of sponge, i- it’s not working.

[00:34:34] Doc Rock: There’s not a decoration, dude. Mine work. They’re designed to Peter Piper pick the pepper pickle peppers. They’re not just, “Oh, look, a cute cover.” Yeah. A whole bunch of people buy it because of cute cover, but as an audio file, it had to work. So I wanted mine to work. Where the other ones are kind of just like, “Oh, I put draws on the pig.”

[00:34:52] Jeff Sieh: Is there a special foam? Like is. I mean, you couldn’t just go with any old foam. Did you have to find the right kind of foam to do?

[00:34:57] Doc Rock: You could use any old foam, but I went [00:35:00] with acoustic. I went with a acoustic quality memory foam, again, because I’m an audio file, I’m a nerd. I have pet peeves when it comes to sound.

[00:35:08] Doc Rock: Yeah, super crazy. Ooh, I, I have to do a quick shameless plug, Jeff. Apologies.

[00:35:14] Jeff Sieh: That’s right.

[00:35:14] Doc Rock: There is a creator, I think he popped in a chat a second ago. Uh, my buddy, Raf, he made a plugin that’s designed for Phonica Da Vinci Premiere that will fix your audio. The way that I go crazy about Alfonica or everybody else does like Adobe podcasts.

[00:35:29] Doc Rock: And I was like, “Bro, can you make your work live inside of Ecamm with the Ecamm, you know –

[00:35:33] Jeff Sieh: uh-huh.

[00:35:34] Doc Rock: Plugin.” And then he was like, “Hold on, let me see.” I was making toast, bro. Before I finished buttering my nice sourdough. He was like, “Hey, it works.” And I was like, “Shut the front door.” He’s like, “Yeah, go test it.” It says, “I need to make one minor tweak, but I can do that real quick.”

[00:35:49] Doc Rock: And so he made it so that you can press the button and you talk for like 10 seconds and it will auto EQ according to your voice and auto do all funnex, you could do a while recording instead of after you [00:36:00] record. And if you do, again, shameless plug, docroc.live/power, it will take you to his store and you’ll see Power EQ.That’s the one.

[00:36:09] Jeff Sieh: So –

[00:36:09] Doc Rock: Oh my God, it’s phenomenal. I’m using it right now. Don’t sound cute.

[00:36:13] Jeff Sieh: I gotta go, uh, play with it. So docrock.live/what? Power. Power. Okay. I wanna make sure that’s

[00:36:20] Doc Rock: clear. He has a bunch of plugins that he made for final cut, but the Power EQ is the one. And then because I know you like your favorite product for easy paper edits, he made a version of that for people who don’t wanna buy that thing that you love so much.

[00:36:32] Doc Rock: I won’t say their name, but you know what it is.

[00:36:34] Jeff Sieh: The script?

[00:36:34] Doc Rock: He basically made a version of that that works with Premier Funnel Cut – Okay. Da Vinci. Yeah, it’s dope. You’ll see it.

[00:36:40] Jeff Sieh: Okay. Cool, cool, cool.

[00:36:41] Doc Rock: You need to have him on your show.

[00:36:42] Jeff Sieh: Yeah, I’d love to. Yeah, so if he’s listening, I, I –

[00:36:44] Doc Rock: Ra- Raphael, if you’re in the chat, send Jeff a hay.

[00:36:47] Jeff Sieh: All right.

[00:36:48] Paul Gowder: Yeah, I’m gonna go look at that now.

[00:36:49] Jeff Sieh: Yeah. So one of the questions. So I’m gonna let you get to the next one, Paul, but I wanted to ask, I s – I still think. I don’t understand how this works between you and China. Like, so you have these [00:37:00] colors, like, insanity orange, Blue Hawaii, all that stuff.

[00:37:02] Jeff Sieh: So how did you figure. ‘Cause, like, I don’t care if they send you a picture of the color, it’s not gonna be the same as actually the product. So were you having to wait, like, three, like, a month to get the sample and, like, oh, that color, that’s too green, I need it lighter, or whatever? Like, how did that work back and forth with these factories?

[00:37:20] Doc Rock: Yeah, so one of the colors that I wanted to produce was Buck Blue, because me and Tom are friends, and I like the color blue that Tom uses for everything. And so, I gave them particular color, and for some reason, we couldn’t nail that color. So, the blue Hawaii ended up darker, but I. They sent me a, a couple of different blues that they could do.

[00:37:39] Doc Rock: They definitely mixed the colors for me, and I was like, “Okay, I’ll accept this one because it has enough pop.” The original purple was a little dull, not enough abergine, and I was like, “Come on, son. I need to be. I need a parbo that screams.” And they’re like, “Okay, okay.” So we went back and forth on that. And then I gave up on the second blue.

[00:37:57] Doc Rock: So there was gonna be the dark blue that I got, the blue Hawaii, and then there was gonna [00:38:00] be a buck blue. And again, the colors, I. They’re my stuff, okay? Simply red, I’m a music dude, right? Mm-hmm. Insanity Orange, Netherlands is my favorite, uh, international football team. Orange is the color of insanity, is their, is their thing, right?

[00:38:13] Doc Rock: Blue Hawaii, hello, I live in Hawaii. Green AF is because Aubrey’s favorite. I know what you though. Get your head out the gutter. Dang it, people, it’s 5: AM. No, my buddy, Aubrey, loves green, and so green AF is Aubrey’s favorite.

[00:38:29] Paul Gowder: Very

[00:38:29] Doc Rock: cool. Actually, I, I would’ve taken the first one, but – I know. They told me, never explained that, never explained that one on, on the internet.

[00:38:35] Doc Rock: Right. So yeah, even the colors, like, I just went up with goofy names because I just thought it would help. And Purple Rain is definitely to Prince, you know, that, that one sort of mattered. And yeah, it’s just one of those really things, but I definitely went back and forth. I went through tons of samples, and that’s what took me a year.

[00:38:52] Doc Rock: I was being kind of particular about the blue, and then I ended up defaulting. I wasn’t gonna do green because [00:39:00] I though, what happens if someone does a green screen and have a hole in their neck?

[00:39:02] Jeff Sieh: Oh,

[00:39:03] Doc Rock: that’s a good point, yeah. But I was like, “You know what?” After I thought about it, I was like, “You know what?

[00:39:07] Doc Rock: Nevermind them people. They can figure out how to fix it.” Right. And I was like, “There’s a way to fix it with Ecamm and things like that.” So I was like, “I’m just gonna do it.” It turned out to be one of the favorite colors is this dang green. So Aubrey, thanked to her – uh-huh. For pushing me to do green. She kept.

[00:39:22] Doc Rock: Every time I would get in the meeting, we’d be talking about it in my class, she was like, “Just do green.” I was like, “Uh, don’t. It’s not gonna work with green screen.” And you know what? It’s like, “Dude, you hate green screen. Why do you care?” I was like, “Yeah, you’re right.” “You’re right. Dang it. Aubrey, why you gotta be right?”

[00:39:37] Doc Rock: So that’s what happened.That’s

[00:39:39] Jeff Sieh: awesome. So Paul’s got a, that’s a great question, but remember, when you’re answering this doc, remember this is a family show. I’m just gonna preface it with that. Okay. So, so go ahead, Paul.

[00:39:49] Doc Rock: You guys are my family. Weird family.

[00:39:51] Jeff Sieh: That’s right.

[00:39:52] Paul Gowder: I mean, you’ve talked about some of the surprises you’ve gotten along the way, and, but on your product page, you, you talk about, “Hey, Google, YouTube, [00:40:00] this is not an adult product.”

[00:40:01] Paul Gowder: So tell us about that backstory. What happened?

[00:40:04] Doc Rock: Oh my God, Paul, I’m gonna cry. Okay. So I keep getting my product removed from my YouTube shop, and it, it legit, like, I was, like, sending the thing into Google, like, “Hey, s – what the heck is going on?” And they’re like, “Oh, this product was flagged as an adult product.”

[00:40:22] Doc Rock: And I was like, “It’s a microphone cover, my guy. What are you doing?” So I think it might’ve been their, their little robots just looking at it and, you know, maybe the pink one gives off a different bot. I don’t know. But I had to fix it, like, 10 times. And I just finally got mad and I put it in description hoping the, maybe if the bot looks at the picture, maybe the bot also can read, because I’ve had it kicked out of the store so many times I’ve had to, uh, file an appeal and it goes right back in.

[00:40:50] Doc Rock: But creators, since this is a creator new show, pay attention to this. As of yesterday, Amazon Products Jeff are [00:41:00] available to tag – I know. On YouTube videos.

[00:41:02] Paul Gowder: Yes.

[00:41:03] Jeff Sieh: I saw that.

[00:41:03] Doc Rock: Son, do not be a person sleeping on money talking about, “I can’t afford to buy this new thing that’s $200.” Well, tag your products, player.

[00:41:11] Doc Rock: You can afford whatever you want in no time. Now Amazon’s in there. Come on, son.

[00:41:16] Jeff Sieh: So are, are doc pops on Amazon too or not? They’re not, are they?

[00:41:19] Doc Rock: No.

[00:41:19] Jeff Sieh: Okay.

[00:41:20] Doc Rock: I purposely didn’t, but I’m thinking about, now that I’m so busy doing other stuff, I, I manually ship every order, which is a pain in the butt.

[00:41:27] Doc Rock: just because it takes me now that I, I am not having them fulfilled by my fulfillment company and I have to do them by hand. Thank you person who decided to make tarots for nothing. Yeah, it’s a, it’s a lot of work. I, I unpack five orders when I get off of this before I go back to bed.

[00:41:42] Jeff Sieh: So how much inventory.

[00:41:43] Jeff Sieh: Like did you have to get warehouse space or were you able to all put it in your garage? Like how. ‘Cause that’s a, that’s a real issue depending on the size of your product that you make – Yeah. Like storing this stuff. So like how, how did you decide how much in- inventory to have on hand? How much before you make, make another order to, from China?

[00:41:59] Jeff Sieh: Like how does [00:42:00] all of that play out when you’re, when you’re making these products?

[00:42:03] Doc Rock: Oh, it’s really how much space you got. And I don’t have a lot of space, so luckily my product smashes down to next to nothing. Noise for a second. So in its compressed form, it’s about yo big.

[00:42:14] Jeff Sieh: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:15] Doc Rock: Right? So I just smashed the crap out of them and then they just grow back when they’re ready.

[00:42:20] Doc Rock: Okay, noise people. So I can compress them a lot. I vacuum all of them. I can fit 100 into like little flat, like medium-sized thing that you use for travel. Mm-hmm. Like when you take it on a boat.

[00:42:35] Paul Gowder: Yeah.

[00:42:35] Doc Rock: So I can, I can fit a lot in a little bit of space. It’s funny when I have to open a new pack to watch the pack go, shh.

[00:42:43] Doc Rock: Good Lord, this is huge. But before, every time I put them back, I vacuum them back out again, and now I just use the squeeze bags because it’s faster. Mm-hmm. And I got tired of making that noise with the vacuum. But yeah, think about how much space is gonna take up. Do you have that type of space? Do you have that [00:43:00] type of sort of storage and things like that?

[00:43:01] Doc Rock: And again, I was lucky at first I have fulfillment. I will tell you, if you don’t mind, it’s probably worth it going through Amazon fulfillment or something like that. Again, you’re gonna have to have a decent amount of profit margin for that. I didn’t wanna make mine super expensive, so I purposely took out a bunch of the things that add to the cost, because I was thinking at the time I wanted to make an affordable product.

[00:43:24] Doc Rock: And this is crazy. And just being a, a proud dad, like, mine is 10 times better than the other one, but we’re the same price. What I should’ve did was made mine more expensive and then sent him, just stay in fulfillment, eat the tariffs, the whole nine yards. And if I had to do it again, I probably would do that.

[00:43:40] Doc Rock: But I, I just though I’m gonna be, you know, a superhero and keep ’em the same price and eat the tariffs, which was dumb. Nobody else is eating it. That’s

[00:43:49] Jeff Sieh: right. All right. So real quick, while we’re wrapping up, kinda have one more section to talk about. But don’t forget, guys, camp. All of us are gonna be there.

[00:43:57] Jeff Sieh: You can find out more by going to Ecammp.com/camp. [00:44:00] It’s gonna be amazing. Paul’s gonna be speaking. I’m gonna be speaking. Doc’s gonna speak. So many people. Pat Flynn, uh, Michael Hyatt, all the cool kids are gonna be there. So make sure you guys go check it out at Ecamm.com/camp and, uh, go check that out because I don’t think there are many tickets left because they cap it at 100.

[00:44:17] Jeff Sieh: So I think you guys are pretty, are getting up there. So make sure you get it before it goes away. All right. Let’s talk about building it in public. This is what you’ve done with actually Katie, because this is, this is really interesting to me because it’s, it’s also about building things and putting something together.

[00:44:34] Jeff Sieh: And this was kind of a different one where back in January, you and Katie stopped a show with 127 episodes behind it, and then redesigned the whole thing on camera. that was pretty impressive. So, you know, most people would rather build it in pu – in private. Like, if I wanna do a new, a new show look or feel, I wanna get it all right and then I’ll launch it.

[00:44:53] Jeff Sieh: But you did it, like, live. So I wanna talk about what it actually costs to do this kinda with everybody seeing it. So whose [00:45:00] idea was this to redesign The Flow, which is the name of the show? And what were you afraid would happen or what were you hoping would happen?

[00:45:07] Doc Rock: I think it was a collective idea. We were just like, “Hey, it’s, it’s time to, like, you know, make the show more showy.”

[00:45:12] Doc Rock: And the strangest thing about wanting to make this show more showy came from, you know, I’ve been long time pounding sand about how YouTube is becoming more and more TV-like, and how everybody who has a podcast should get their podcasts on YouTube. And I caught a whole bunch of flack. I was three years ahead of the game.

[00:45:33] Doc Rock: It took me two years of proving myself right. And then we were at podcast movement in Denver when Kai came in and said, “Okay, YouTube is launching YouTube podcast.” And then I just did moonwalks and be like, “Told you suckers.” And, it just made sense. It was, it made the most logical sense. And then, of course, there became a year and a half of fighting about, “YouTube doesn’t have an RSF.

[00:45:52] Doc Rock: Nobody gives a dang a bunch of RSS.

[00:45:54] Doc Rock: Dave. So then then Jeff, that’s the inside joke, Jeff [00:46:00] got it. Mm-hmm. Um, and then, you know, last year, right about January, Neil Mohan put out the numbers, what YouTube did in podcast that first year of YouTube podcasts. And they were like, when we crushed over a billion hours of podcasts alone, no shorts, no cat videos, no crafting, podcasts only on televisions, not phones, not cars, not refrigerators, not iPads, on television.

[00:46:25] Doc Rock: Not even the back of seat planes, airplane seats, just TVs. And I was like,” See, it needs to be more like a show. “So we decided to rebuild it to make it like a show. Who knew? Eight months later, they’re gonna announce YouTube shows. And again, I just, you know, I’m not clairvoyant. I have common sense, my guy.

[00:46:42] Doc Rock: Common sense. You go where the people are going and then that’s what the people are doing. Old people, those of us over the age of 40, we’re sitting down and watching YouTube on the couch because my whole reason for this idea in the first place is you have not seen a TV made anywhere in the planet in the last 12 years that doesn’t have a YouTube [00:47:00] button.

[00:47:00] Doc Rock: There is no podcast button. There’s no Facebook button. There’s no Instagram button. There’s no TikTok button. The only button on that remote is Netflix and YouTube, home, options, and mute. Right. A bunch of channel things. So, like, I knew that YouTube was gonna win sooner or later, and so that was why we won the format it as a show.

[00:47:20] Doc Rock: And trust me, people, if you haven’t done so already, sit down with your bot this weekend. You know, I’m not gonna ask you to go crazy, but at least get something a little bit better than JB – Jack Daniels. Get something slightly up. Sit down, ice, chill out, and figure out how to turn your thing into a show.

[00:47:34] Doc Rock: Jeff has been doing this since day one. This is definitely a show. So he could hit the show button and he’s off to the races.

[00:47:41] Jeff Sieh: Yeah. I wonder. ‘Cause I know Dave watches the show, so you guys can find it out even more, but I know, I know what you’re talking about when you

[00:47:47] Doc Rock: say – You know, they. The podcast people, I get it, bro.

[00:47:50] Doc Rock: Somebody snatched your eggs and they still mad about there’s no RSS. Nobody except us originally. I coded my RSS by hand back in the day. Mm-hmm. Right? Like, we had to do XML, [00:48:00] XML files by hand until Podler came out, a couple other tools. So trust me, I get it. But nobody cares about that anymore. People just hit the YouTube thing, and they watch a certain show every single time at the every single time because it’s just like television, and that’s eaSiehr to explain to Muggles than what, you know, syndication is and how to subscribe to it.

[00:48:20] Doc Rock: Half the people don’t even subscribe to the shows they watch. I am a good YouTuber and I try to be a good medicine of the platform. I realize now there’s a handful of shows I watch religiously. I have never hit the subscribe button. I’m amazed that when I hit a friend’s channel and they’re like, “I can’t believe you weren’t suscribed.”

[00:48:35] Doc Rock: I go, “Yeah, but I seen every video. I can tell you what they are verbatim.”

[00:48:38] Paul Gowder: Right. Yep.

[00:48:39] Doc Rock: But because the subscribe methodology is gone, and it’s sad that brand deals still go by subscriber numbers, but, like, subscribers don’t count. And the podcast numbers were a lie anyway, because you, every person listening, has a podcast player on their phone that they described, subscribed to some show that they haven’t listened to for over a year.

[00:48:57] Doc Rock: So the numbers were wrong anyway. It was always BS. [00:49:00] Let’s be factual.

[00:49:01] Jeff Sieh: Yeah.

[00:49:01] Paul Gowder: Here’s. Talk about being clairvoyant. I think Google calling it a show is the phasing out of the word podcast. I mean, this Weekend Tik, Leo talked about this a decade ago. It’s a bad word.

[00:49:13] Doc Rock: Who’s that? What is Dis Weekend Tech?

[00:49:14] Doc Rock: I, I should get on this show.

[00:49:16] Paul Gowder: it’s a bad word, right? It, it. For, like, my mom, she’s never gonna understand what a podcast is, but a show on YouTube, she’s gonna click it and watch it. So I, I, I think we’re gonna see that, that word going away. And- And,

[00:49:27] Doc Rock: and people say, “Ooh, my show is on.” Even for reels where somebody’s just arguing in the grocery store – Right.

[00:49:32] Doc Rock: “Oh, look, my show is on.”

[00:49:34] Jeff Sieh: My parents love watching YouTube. They watch YouTube more than anything on their TV now. Like, they’re in their – Yeah,

[00:49:39] Doc Rock: mine too.

[00:49:39] Jeff Sieh: La- later ’70s, and so I’m like, yeah, it’s where it’s at, so very, very cool. Yeah, Paul, go ahead.

[00:49:45] Paul Gowder: Yeah, so you guys did all this on air. You, you, you did the reframing and, and all the layout and everything.

[00:49:50] Paul Gowder: So now that you’re several months in from redoing it and building it in public, how’s the feedback? How do you feel it’s working? Are you seeing a difference in numbers and [00:50:00] engagement?

[00:50:00] Doc Rock: Uh, yes. Actually, it is. And I think the thing that we added, which is a lot of fun, is the mailbag show. The mailbag part of it has gone really, really well.

[00:50:10] Doc Rock: There’s some polishing more that I wanna do to take it to the next level. And oh, I didn’t wanna skip over. Uh, Jeff, he, he asked a question and I didn’t answer it and I wanna answer it because there was a question there, like, “Were you afraid of X, Y, Z?” And I’m gonna say this again. I am not a special human being.

[00:50:26] Doc Rock: As a matter of fact, I am probably more stupid than most. I am fearless to a fault. Like, why would I worry about something that I can’t control? I just don’t. And I just wanna make sure that everybody understands that I. When it comes to this content creating stuff, ain’t afraid of nothing. It’s like, “Why aren’t you afraid somebody’s gonna say something bad?”

[00:50:42] Doc Rock: Yes, they are. I’m born Black in America. I’ve had bad stuff said to me since I could hear. You know, like, it just, it’s not gonna stop. No one’s gonna tell you. No one’s gonna not call me fat or old or whatever. Like, hey, I’ve been listening to all of that since I had the battles, what do you call? Granimals, the husky version.

[00:50:59] Doc Rock: Th’s right. So, [00:51:00] like, who cares, bro? I don’t care about them people. I tell you what I’m not gonna do, not gonna not eat barbecue with rich. Because somebody said I’m fat, you know? I lost 70 pounds, people still call me fat. So what? I don’t care. Like, I don’t think about that sort of stuff because I have a purpose, and my purpose is to positively infect them, i- i- impact, not infect impact the lives of so many people.

[00:51:24] Doc Rock: And the only way I can do that is stay true to myself. And so, luckily, Katie was like, “Okay, let’s go. Let’s do it.” And, you know, even her, who is probably more cautious and and more common sense, she was like, “Yeah, let’s run. Let’s go run into this brick wall at the same time and see what happens.” Because that’s the only way you learn, you know what I mean?

[00:51:42] Doc Rock: The only way you know how to throw a baseball is throw baseballs. Mm. So, yeah, to, to that point, but it has absolutely worked, and it has increased. And it also makes the people in the, community feel more of a part of the show because they also helped build it, built, built it. What a D. I swear I [00:52:00] can talk.

[00:52:00] Jeff Sieh: It’s early for you. We get it. And you have a line talking about posting and ghosting. It’s killing podcast growth, right? So, and a lot of creators are this way. I’ve, I’ve talked about it in my talks for a long time. Paul and I talk about it in our mastermind that we do. For somebody who publishes and immediately starts making the next thing, what would you tell them to do instead?

[00:52:18] Jeff Sieh: ‘Cause I think as creators, we’re always fighting, think we’re fighting the algorithm and we gotta hit the next thing out, and we never either think about w- what worked and what didn’t work, or we just rush into that, you know, the, the next thing, the next episode, the posting and ghosting like you’re talking about.

[00:52:33] Jeff Sieh: So talk about that. What should we do instead?

[00:52:35] Doc Rock: I would beg everyone in the chat to look at this Men in Black thing right here and then forget you ever heard the word algorithm. It is none of your business. You can’t outdo the algo. You never will. There’s probably 600 people in a room at the bigger platforms whose whole job it is to [00:53:00] manipulate the algo every week in order to best provide a platform for their viewers.

[00:53:06] Doc Rock: Creators got this thing in their head where they think the algorithm’s for them. It’s for you when you’re a viewer, it’s not for you when you’re a creator. The algorithm’s job is to serve the best video to the best person at the best time so that they will spend more time with their butt stuck to the platform.

[00:53:22] Doc Rock: You’re talking about like, “Oh, I need the algorithm to send people to see my video.” If you, if we opened their restaurant and we sat around and waited for folks to walk in, ain’t nobody coming. I can cook, Paul can cook, Jeff can cook. Together, we make some sick food. But ain’t, you know what the best part about our.

[00:53:39] Doc Rock: We’d have Hawaiian barbecue, Carolina barbecue, and Texas barbecue in the same joint.

[00:53:44] Jeff Sieh: That’s right. Yeah.

[00:53:44] Doc Rock: We need a Korean friend to step up. Like we would have all of the barbecues in the same joint and ain’t nobody coming. But what we would do is Jeff would hit his mailing list and Paul would hit. God, Paul’s mailing list would cover us for months.

[00:53:58] Doc Rock: Oh, yeah.

[00:53:58] Jeff Sieh: We wouldn’t have to worry. [00:54:00]

[00:54:00] Doc Rock: I hit my mailing list, and you know what, folks be outside. Hey, let me get some of that Kahlua Pig, you know? Oh, let me get some of that Carolina baby backs, right? Our restaurant would be off the chain, because each one would come with a single malt. But ain’t nobody coming if we don’t do any of that.

[00:54:14] Doc Rock: Creators think you’re gonna post something and ghost it and people just gonna find it. And I’m like, “Well, what did you do to get people to come to your thing?” And they’d be like, “What you talking about, Willis?” And I’m like, “Bruh, the algorithm ain’t gonna send nobody to you. That’s not how it works. You gotta go get your folks.”

[00:54:29] Doc Rock: But then those folks faberge, and s – they tell two friends, and then they tell two friends, and then so on and so on and so on. And that’s where this quote unquote virality comes from. So please stop depending on the algorithm. And if you ask anybody who knows what they’re talking about, the number one statement is algorithm equals audience.

[00:54:47] Doc Rock: What your audience wants is there. And they, “Well, I don’t have one.” Then go get one. And I was like, “Okay, what do you…” Uh, so Paul was doing this thing where he’s doing, uh, piano for, you know, people, seniors, like, “Yo should jump in the piano. It helps stave off [00:55:00] dementia. You have a lot of fun. You know, most of us had to do it when our mom were hitting us with a ruler, but now go back and do this and have some fun.”

[00:55:06] Jeff Sieh: Yeah.

[00:55:06] Doc Rock: And so Paul started. At first, he was just nervous, just doing his thing. And then, you know, he told the other people in his building, it’s a, you know, a senior building, and all of a sudden they started watching it, and then they started dragging other people. Let’s, you know, p- Paul got people at his show, my moderator, Paul, not this Paul, he’s not that old.

[00:55:22] Doc Rock: But you have got to go, do, go to the Piggly Wiggly and put a thing on the bulletin board and be like, “I make a podcast about crocheting. Anybody crochet, come and check me out, hit me up on this number. Yo, they will let you put that on the board at the Piggly Wiggly for free.” But people were still out here like, “Oh, I’m waiting for YouTube to send people to Sorry, no.

[00:55:42] Paul Gowder: Yeah. No,

[00:55:42] Doc Rock: that don’t work, bro. Like, they find you by accident, cool. But then if they find you by accident, you have nothing to make them stay, so you have to have that depth. And Jeff is the king of this. Jeff’s repurposed skill allows it that if you bumped across, you know, anything that Jeff’s doing and you wanna know more, [00:56:00] there’s more.

[00:56:00] Doc Rock: But if somebody opens the door to there’s more and there’s nothing back there, Wizard of Oz, show over. That’s right.

[00:56:07] Jeff Sieh: Well, I mean, and you’ve talked about it before, like, I, because the stuff you, Docs and, and Paul and most all of my guests are evergreen. And so that stuff lasts forever. So, like, I’ll, you’ll see stuff from when Doc was first on the show, like, five years ago still come surface because it’s still good.

[00:56:24] Jeff Sieh: Like, I just feel as creators, we, we’re like, “Okay, we did the show, next thing.” And we gotta, like, squeeze all the juice out of it because this stuff’s hard. Like, it’s hard to be a creator and make content. So, I just encourage everybody to, you know, think of some repurposing things. And by the way, we’re gonna be talking all about that at Creator Camp.

[00:56:41] Jeff Sieh: Make sure you guys go to Creator Camp and find out all you can about everything Ecamm. It’s awesome. Ecamm.com/camp. Doc, this has been amazing, as always. Tell us what you got going on, where we can find you. I know you mentioned you’re gonna be in Dallas, uh, not too long. You and Rich are gonna eat some BBQ, which will be awesome.

[00:56:59] Jeff Sieh: [00:57:00] What’s going on with Doc?

[00:57:01] Doc Rock: So after a car party is over, then it’s gonna be camp. I can’t wait for camp. Camp is absolutely incredible. And then I’m gonna go take a well-loved creator break in Suporo, Japan for a little bit, then head off to New York to go do some stuff with OpsBot. Cam, they got some new stuff coming out, so you’ll be hearing me yap about that.

[00:57:19] Doc Rock: And honestly, I just want everybody to go create something. And if you need help, I’m always available. Jump on the YouTube channel, find me any of my social medias and be like, “Hey, I wanna do this. Like how do I do it?” If you wanna make a product, let me know, like I’ll help you figure it out. Like I just want people to make stuff because my, the thing, Jeff, that drives me crazy every day is when I open the news or I’m in a grocery store and I hear somebody talking about how terrible social media is, and I’m like, “Hey, so have you used it to do anything positive?”

[00:57:51] Doc Rock: And they’re like, “What? No, I don’t like social media. I don’t either.” It’s like, you can’t tell me that it has the power to blow up the world and doesn’t also have the power to save the world.

[00:57:58] Jeff Sieh: Mm-hmm.

[00:57:59] Doc Rock: Because [00:58:00] 225 tons of pulling force is 225 tons of pulling force to pull something down. It’s also the same pulling force to pull something up.

[00:58:08] Doc Rock: It’s still 225 tons of pulling force. So it’s just what you do with it, right? So if you create good, you create happy, you create stuff that makes people’s lives better, then eventually we can drown out the noise that you claim you don’t like. So just outproduce the dumb stuff. That’s all I, that’s all I ask for.

[00:58:28] Doc Rock: That’s what I’m out here preaching and hopefully somebody come to church of Doc and we’ll make something fun.

[00:58:33] Paul Gowder: Yeah.

[00:58:33] Jeff Sieh: And you

[00:58:33] Paul Gowder: gotta Preach, preach, preach. That, that was awesome. Yeah. The last 10 minutes, Jeff, I think you’re gonna have like 18 clips out of this. Doc is, is talking gospel here.

[00:58:42] Jeff Sieh: Oh,

[00:58:42] Doc Rock: he

[00:58:42] Jeff Sieh: woke up. He woke up.

[00:58:43] Jeff Sieh: The coffee kicked in. See,

[00:58:44] Doc Rock: Jeff, I told you to do it an hour

[00:58:45] Jeff Sieh: later, bro. Coffee kicked up. Where can people find the amazing Paul Gowder?

[00:58:49] Paul Gowder: Paulgowder.com. I’m also doing a Facebook challenge if you want to find out how you can use social media for good, pauder.com/facebookchallenge.

[00:58:57] Jeff Sieh: So real quick, uh, Doc, I know you gotta go, but I [00:59:00] wanted to, this is a great quote by your pal rich.

[00:59:02] Jeff Sieh: He goes, “All the catch in the world doesn’t fix the crummy taste of tariffs,” which I though was great. And, and then, uh, a last question, uh, here is from Cartoon says, “Is there a specific version of Power EQ that will work as a plugin inside of Ecamm?” Is that the, the one you

[00:59:17] Doc Rock: mentioned? Uh, the, there’s only one.

[00:59:18] Doc Rock: The other one has been phased out, so the standard Power EQ would just work. The other ones were there, but if you note, if you look at them, it’ll say has been replaced by it. So look at that thing real carefully, but the main one is just Power EQ. Yeah. And it just works. You can download the trial and play with it and you’ll be like, “Oh my goodness.”

[00:59:35] Doc Rock: ‘Cause I know Ed is always talking about like how to make his Pyanner stuff work better. And I’m like, “Bro, you can play Pyanner and make it sound perfectly exactly how you want it to sound now because you can EQ on the fly inside of E-Cam. It’s so good.”

[00:59:47] Jeff Sieh: Yeah. And by the way, we talked about cool stuff that we’re building and making.

[00:59:51] Jeff Sieh: Well, I have the new jeffsieh.com/cheatsheet you’ll get at about three o’clock, 3:30 today, all of this wrapped up into a cool little [01:00:00] cheat sheet that is totally free. Uh, all the links that we’ve talked about, everything that we’ve mentioned on the show today will be there. So make sure to check that out at jefc.com/cheatsheet.

[01:00:09] Jeff Sieh: Thanks to everybody in the comments, they were amazing because we have

[01:00:26] Jeff Sieh: Have a great rest of your day. See you guys next time. Bye everybody.

SHOW TRANSCRIPT

This transcript is automatically generated by Descript.  Any errors or omissions are unintentional.

[00:00:00] Angie Callen: I just think that we still have another 18 to 24 months before the dust kind of settles

[00:00:04] Angie Callen: And then we’re gonna go into something that I think is more, long-term maintainable, to the point that we’re gonna understand how humans work alongside technology in a healthy, sustainable way instead of this very chaotic, sometimes scary, you know, adoption process we’re in the crosshairs of.

[00:00:24] Jeff Sieh: Hello, folks. Welcome to Creator News Live. I’m Jeff Sieh, and you’re not

[00:00:27] Kira Pogge: And I’m Kiera Pulga-Breivik, and this is the show that keeps you up to date on the creator economy and so much more

[00:00:32] Jeff Sieh: You ever been doing everything they told you to do using AI, posting more, automating more, and somehow it’s all landing softer than it used to? Maybe you feel like you’re shouting into a feed where everything already sounds the same. And have you ever wondered whether the thing that actually sets you apart is the one thing that you keep polishing right out of your work?

[00:00:51] Jeff Sieh: If that sounds familiar, well, you’re in the right place

[00:00:53] Kira Pogge: Our guest today is Angie Callen. She’s a former engineer turned people person and award-winning executive coach, author, and [00:01:00] speaker who helps people find and use their voice with purpose, confidence, and intention. She’s the founder of The Modern Coach, the author of Scary Good, and she is known for blending strategy, humor, and humanity to help leaders navigate change, influence authentically, and makes values aligned decisions without losing themselves in the process.

[00:01:19] Kira Pogge: She’s built her whole practice around five words, which I love this so much. Work has changed, humans haven’t. Today she’s showing us what’s actually working now that we all have the same tools and how to lead real people on the other side of it

[00:01:32] Jeff Sieh: So sit back, clear your schedule, clear your mind to get ready for this week’s episode of Creator News Live There we go. So that was cool [00:02:00] to

[00:02:00] Angie Callen: I need that.

[00:02:02] Jeff Sieh: Oh, I will send it to you. So it’s really fun that we were able to do that now. So, this is gonna be a good show. one other thing I wanna talk about, and you kinda mentioned this in your talk, I think, in Wichita, was, and Kira mentioned it, you know, your, your whole brand is built on these five words, kind of your, your focus words that you have, kind of build everything around.

[00:02:18] Jeff Sieh: You know, work has changed, humans haven’t. So unpack that for us. What has specifically changed about work in your opinion, and what is the part that ha- you know, that you’re convinced has not?

[00:02:30] Angie Callen: So I wanna preface those five words with making sure no one thinks it means I’m anti-AI, because I definitely am not. I’m just pro-human, right? So I like to think of us as being AI-enabled humans on purpose in this day and age that we’re living in. And what, and we need to remember the humans on purpose component, because that’s what hasn’t changed.

[00:02:51] Angie Callen: While work has gotten more and more complicated, our lives have gotten more and more complicated than they’ve ever been, and that’s kind of been building over [00:03:00] the last 20 to 30 years as technology has continually seeped into our lives in increasing amounts of presence. And in a way, I think AI is bringing a lot of the challenges that has created to light.

[00:03:14] Angie Callen: And so we’re more disconnected than we’ve ever been, and I think AI is making people realize that. We’ve kind of over-automated, over-technologied a lot of work systems. Hiring is the easiest way to think about this, where fundamentally humans still hire humans. That has never changed. We still hire people the way that we did 40 years ago before you could ever apply to a job on monster.com.

[00:03:39] Angie Callen: However, we’ve put all of these, hoops and technological pieces in between that very fundamental, very simple process that now makes it feel like a very inhuman or un-human, act. And so it’s, it’s just a really specific, almost granular example of how we see, humans [00:04:00] fundamentally still doing things the same way we always have.

[00:04:02] Angie Callen: We are still curious creatures. We’re still connected creatures who wanna be in community and collaboration, yet we have created all of these systems to almost remove those strengths, and the, the environment from our daily lives and our work

[00:04:20] Jeff Sieh: Very true. Very true.

[00:04:22] Kira Pogge: you know, I think the, the claim and the thought that, like, we’re kind of swinging back towards this kind of human-centered approach is something that sounds really good and it feels really refreshing, but I also think it’s something that’s hard for a lot of people to take in and kind of believe just because everything you see is more tech, more AI, more tech, more AI.

[00:04:43] Kira Pogge: And so you have some data to back that up, that we’re kind of swinging to the other side. So what are you actually seeing in the data? ‘Cause I think it’d be great for people to kind of hear you talk through that when all they’re seeing in the news is kind of just AI everywhere.

[00:04:57] Angie Callen: Yeah, and the first thing we have to think about [00:05:00] is, you know, there’s this graph of adoption of new things. It happened, with the internet. It happened with the, the Ford Model T that everyone thought was going to kill them when a car came on the scene, right? And there’s about 15% of the population who becomes early adopters.

[00:05:15] Angie Callen: We are in an echo chamber of those people right now, right? The three of us. but it’s only 10 to 15% of the population, and then, there starts to be this escalation of people adopting whatever the thing is before all of a sudden the bottom falls out of that, and, like, the antitrust starts, and then it comes back up to whatever, let’s say long-term, maintainable, sustainable level of adoption and incorporation, th- society feels we can maintain.

[00:05:42] Angie Callen: So I think right now we are actually still on the ramp-up of early adoption because of the overall low percentage of the accessible population who’s using AI, right? So even if we remove the fact that, like, third world countries have high populations that don’t have internet access, [00:06:00] the people who h- have access to internet and AI ha- are still low percentage adoption.

[00:06:05] Angie Callen: So I think we’re still on this ramp-up into, how the heck does this look in, in society? And because of that, I think all of us are experiencing what is basically the Wild Wild West, right? It is, unroll AI, automate, build a- agents, and do everything we possibly can to use this stuff to, you know, cut time, cut money, cut whatever, whatever, whatever.

[00:06:28] Angie Callen: and it, and if you are on the late side of those, this early adoption, that feels super, super chaotic. Now, what’s ironic is if we look at some, like, granular stuff that’s been happening even in the last year, we’re already seeing super early adopters start to realize we over-indexed on things. So there have been companies, like, even a year ago, Taco Bell, Klarna, there’s a couple other companies, recognizable names you would know, who when AI hit the scene, they’re like, “Sweet, we’re gonna replace all of our [00:07:00] customer service with AI,” and then they went, “Whoops.”

[00:07:03] Angie Callen: And they have, unrolled it, right? That’s a huge cost, by the way. But we’re already seeing examples of, where we’ve over-indexed on a broad scope rollout and realizing it isn’t the way. I just think that we still have another 18 to 24 months before the dust kind of settles on this, like, before all the land in the Wild Wild West has been claimed with its little white flags, right?

[00:07:25] Angie Callen: And then we’re gonna go into something that I think is more, long-term maintainable, to the point that we’re gonna understand how humans work alongside technology in a healthy, sustainable way instead of this very chaotic, sometimes scary, you know, adoption process we’re in the crosshairs of.

[00:07:42] Jeff Sieh: Yeah. it’s interesting because I think, I mean, a lot of the news, at least this news cycle, is, like, the negative, you know, people are not… It, it’s, it’s frustrating people. It’s scary. I think one of the, the things that’s why it’s so scary is it’s moving so fast. Like, I’ve been in technology for a long time.[00:08:00]

[00:08:00] Jeff Sieh: I have never ever, ever seen something this fast, and even the AI, like, gurus or influencers, even our pal Dustin Stout, who is the, uh, founder and CEO, big cheese, head dude over at, Magai, that’s… I mean, I know. Like, it’s, it’s a constant battle to stay up to date on this stuff because these models roll out.

[00:08:17] Jeff Sieh: They get updated almost daily, and it’s, I’m, I, I do not envy his job because even me trying to stay up, you know, up to date on this stuff, it’s just, it can be overwhelming. So you have written that we are using it more but trusting it less, and I think the news cycle shows that people are trusting it less.

[00:08:32] Jeff Sieh: So that’s a really weird, kind of uncomfortable place for a, a whole market to be sitting in. So what happens to a business, you mentioned Taco Bell and some of the other ones, who are on the wrong side of that gap? And so how would somebody, like a small business, a solopreneur kind of people in our audience, how would you know if you are on the wrong side?

[00:08:51] Jeff Sieh: Like, what are some warning signs that you wanna get in front of before your customers start deserting you or you’re having issues?

[00:08:58] Angie Callen: Yeah, I was actually having this conversation [00:09:00] with somebody yesterday about just how in the last few days, like, Claude’s language models changed, and I’m like, “I don’t need a preachy academic giving me five pages of stuff. I just need somebody to help me, like, collate information and pull out the tidbits,” right?

[00:09:13] Angie Callen: So I would say from an individual perspective, if you feel frustrated or you feel like you’re caught in the sycophantic loop is the big thing, it’s time to get human intervention, right? Either your own human intervention or, intervention from a, for, from a third human. I was talking to a client who is literally starting a business, and we’ve talked about the fact that she stays in AI too long, and then she gets really frustrated and can toil on this one tiny thing trying to force ChatGPT to acquiesce to, uh, her request, and at some point you’re just not gonna do it.

[00:09:46] Angie Callen: And so I would say one thing to be cautious of just as you figure out how to use it is to make sure it remains efficient and productive and doesn’t slip into actually creating more work, and more frustration for yourself. So you kind of have to [00:10:00] find that limit. And, and the, the signs of that are, you know, frustration, spending an hour trying to force it to do something it’s just not gonna do, and, and, and bring a human into that process.

[00:10:10] Angie Callen: Now, from a business perspective, to me, you know, again, I fully believe in being an AI-enabled human on purpose, but, but AI and enablement are, key words to making sure that you’re a purposeful human and that you remain so intentionally, right? And so for instance, one thing that’s really easy to do is get into the copy-paste content strategy, and that is what Jeff referred to at the very beginning as basically this, like, sea of sameness that we’re seeing, where, you know, you see a post and you’re like, “Oh, wow, copy paste.”

[00:10:43] Angie Callen: And it’s not because of em dashes, people. Em dashes existed way before ChatGPT, and I had to embrace that fact in my book because I wrote and released my book at the height of the if there is one em dash, it was written by

[00:10:57] Jeff Sieh: Right, right, right

[00:10:58] Angie Callen: however, it’s like a [00:11:00] conversational book, and there was just no way to write it or else there were gonna be 9,000 Oxford commas in it, right?

[00:11:04] Angie Callen: So it, it … Like, you can’t just copy paste because there is a tone, a cadence, a sentence structure that we feel when we read content created by AI, and it’s starting to become more noticeable, and I think that’s where the trust slip starts to happen, where we, we’re using AI more but scrutinizing it more because we’re seeing it everywhere and, and if we’re not careful, it’s gonna become the norm.

[00:11:30] Angie Callen: and so to me, you can, you can outsource, time to AI, but you can’t outsource what fundaly- fundamentally makes a brand you, right? So you can’t just broad scope copy paste without reading it and giving it your own. you certainly please do not- Outsource commenting to an AI bot because I am not gonna engage with you because why do I want to co- have a comment war with a co- a robot, right?

[00:11:58] Angie Callen: And so, like, there’s a bi- there’s this, [00:12:00] especially at a solopreneurial and a creator level of making sure you maintain your human skills and presence in the ecosystem while you’re enabled by AI

[00:12:09] Jeff Sieh: I think that’s great. One of the things, and we talked about this last week, and even my friend Paul Gowder made a little video based off of what we said with, Michael, King Jr., was that I f- I’m finding a lot more time. Like, I’m able to automate things before, like even show prep and stuff, like little minutiae stuff e- like, you know, putting a show and doing all this stuff, like that took a lot of time.

[00:12:28] Jeff Sieh: The problem that I see, and it’s, it’s actually a lot of articles have been written about it, is that the time that we’re saving, we’re filling it with more work. We’re not becoming more creative. We’re not doing, you know, that kind of stuff. And I think we have to, as creators and business owners, is, okay, we’re getting maybe an hour or two back.

[00:12:45] Jeff Sieh: Okay, don’t just stuff it with more admin things. Use it to grow and be more creative, and maybe take a r- a break and rest because that makes you more creative in the long run. So, anyway, I just, when you were talking about that, we can’t, [00:13:00] we can’t use the time we’re, we’re saving and these tools are giving us to just pack it full again.

[00:13:05] Jeff Sieh: That’s just not… And we as

[00:13:07] Angie Callen: And it’s really easy to do that because the tools allow you to sit and develop never-ending strategies and implementation plans that all of a sudden you’re like, “Oh, wow, I just gave myself 29 things to do.” That’s something I did and then had to, like, back off because it was like, how many different strategy conversations can you have across Fortune?

[00:13:24] Angie Callen: But generative AIs, right? And I want to, the one, the one point I wanna make on the, on the end of that, this, this little piece, Jeff, is that in my opinion, we should not be doing anything with AI that we wouldn’t have done as a human without AI. And if you’re going to automate processes and build agents, the best and most effective way to do it is to build that to replace a repeatable, already proven, vetted human process that’s existed in your business, instead of saying, “Hey, look at this AI process I can bring in,” and then either adding something new or trying to [00:14:00] force your humans to follow an AI process that didn’t already exist in the ecosystem.

[00:14:05] Angie Callen: So again, use it as enablement to either replace or augment things that already exist and are already being done by a human before you try to add more

[00:14:15] Jeff Sieh: One of the things is that I love being able to do things that I’ve always wanted to do but I haven’t been able to do before, and an example of that is a, this is a blatant, you know, I’m, I’m you should go sign up for this. JeffSieh.com/cheatsheet. That gives you these cheat sheet, they’re really cool documents that kind of wrap up the thing.

[00:14:33] Jeff Sieh: This will, the one for Angie’s will wrap up today about 3:00, and then it, it’s automatically going to your email inbox, all that cool stuff, JeffSieh.com/cheatsheet. I had always wanted to do that. I saw Amy Porterfield do it y- years ago, and I thought, “That’s so cool.” And now I can do it automatically because of the time that I’m, I’m getting back with some of these AI tools.

[00:14:50] Jeff Sieh: But anyway, blatant, promotion there. So anyway go, Kira, take your question.

[00:14:56] Kira Pogge: I was just gonna say I love, I love what, you know, you were [00:15:00] just talking about, about, you know, we fill, we fill more of our time, what you said, Jeff. And I just, I do feel like that is, like, an American corporate way. It’s hard to, like, unlearn that. B- then all of a sudden when you’re not busy you’re like, ” I should really be busy.”

[00:15:13] Kira Pogge: and what you just said, y- you’re right. You’re sitting there thinking about something that you should be doing rather than e- existing as a human. and what you said, Angie, when you mentioned, like, you kind of did a deep dive on strategy over across four or five LLMs and kind of got lost in that process, and I don’t think you’re alone in that.

[00:15:30] Kira Pogge: I think probably all of us have done that at one point or another. Can you dive a little bit deeper into, like, what that was like and how, how did you recognize that was happening and then take the step back? Because I think, yeah, I don’t think you’re alone in it, and I think a lot of us struggle with, oh, b- but we could do all these things, so how

[00:15:47] Angie Callen: But should you? Just because you can doesn’t mean you should. Also, side note, side note on the shameless plug, I have an entire chapter in my book about how rest is a requirement, not a, a reward, [00:16:00] ’cause that is a hu- And that, AI or not, I am a huge proponent of the fact that we are not supposed to be on 100% of the time.

[00:16:06] Angie Callen: So there’s our little shared, uh, human message for all of you throughout the day. But to answer your question, Kira, you know, for me, what I realized is that I was spending more time in AI than I wasn’t. And I’m a natural, I am a, a natural idea generator. like, I, you, I can’t … You give me an idea, I’m gonna tell you 97 ways to make money on it, and I just can’t help but do that.

[00:16:26] Angie Callen: And so all of a sudden, AI is a blessing and a curse, because it can help take those ideas and actually flesh them out into something you could do with it, but 97 plans on how to make money with something are a whole lot of things to implement, in a small business. And then at the same time, it can also take somebody who’s already an idea generator, 3X that, and create the exact same, level of kind of overwhelming compulsion to do, right?

[00:16:51] Angie Callen: So for me, what I realized is I, I had too many different conversations happening in too many different places. I couldn’t remember where it [00:17:00] was, and even fundamentally I also knew that all those conversations probably had a common thread that really should be in one place. And so at that point it was like, “Okay, we’re gonna back off of this, and I need to just very logistically create myself one dump, one, one conversation where I can dump ideas so that it’s all in one place,” but I also have guardrails on the fact that, one chat is only gonna allow me to do one thing at a time versus 12 chats allowing me to do 24.

[00:17:27] Angie Callen: So for me, it was really my own accountability and realizing I was, enjoying having a strategy partner a little too much. and, and also then you get in the loop, and I realized I needed to intervene with my own humanness

[00:17:39] Jeff Sieh: Yeah, I agree. just back to, and Dusty even said, he says so, he sees so many people just adding a bunch of work with AI that they would, you know, never have done otherwise because it’s unnecessary, but sounded cool, but why not? So I, I really am trying to like, like Angie was saying before, it’s like, okay, what tasks am I doing that I repeat every week, and can I automate them?

[00:17:59] Jeff Sieh: I [00:18:00] mean, it’s very systems thinking, which is something as a creative a lot of us struggle with. We are very much the ooh, ahh, ahh, squirrel kind of thing. A new tool, and like, oh, there’s a new model. I gotta go try that new model, of AI. And so I think that being focused on real outcomes and putting the human back, like I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna fake, you know, my Tuesday, Wednesday emails.

[00:18:21] Jeff Sieh: Those are something I write to my, the people I want to have a message to, and we interact back and forth. That stuff’s not gonna be automated. But, you’re a leadership coach, which means y- basic- the way I see it is you kinda make your living off things that don’t automate, right? Like you, th- you can’t send somebody to the Angie AI w- I mean, I guess you could, but, what is…

[00:18:42] Jeff Sieh: When you look at your

[00:18:43] Angie Callen: one day soon I will be able to. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

[00:18:46] Jeff Sieh: There, there, it’s, it’s getting kinda scary. Um, but when you look at your own work, like, what is the piece AI can generally take from you, and what is the piece you’re never, ever, ever, ever gonna let it touch?

[00:18:56] Angie Callen: Hmm. Are you talking about me personally or the royal

[00:18:59] Jeff Sieh: business, [00:19:00] like your business, like as a leadership coach

[00:19:02] Angie Callen: Yeah. So I, and this is something that, i- ironically maybe AI helped me to put, put words to something I naturally do and did not know. I did, I knew I did, but didn’t know how to say it. You know, I, naturally, I am a systems thinker, by the way.

[00:19:17] Angie Callen: So former engineer who loves people, the best and most exciting problem I can solve is a human one, right? It is the most interesting, complex, and fascinating. It’s way more than designing pipes to flow shit downhill, right? and so for me, that systems thinking and pattern recognition are two things that, I’m naturally wired for, and then having an engineering education exacerbated it.

[00:19:39] Angie Callen: Now, AI can do pattern recognition, but what it can’t do is recognize the patterns for a group of 20 people sitting in a room together. And so for me, it’s really about what container do we need to create for those humans to connect in the way they need to connect in order to get to the goal we’re trying to go to?

[00:19:55] Angie Callen: And AI can’t walk in that room and understand it doesn’t have empathy for that [00:20:00] room. It might be able to recognize patterns based on what it’s told, but it doesn’t know what isn’t being said. And so for that reason, there’s like, that’s where, you know, I really think about engineering human potential, because we have infinite capability to, maximize inhuman or non-human potential is probably the right word, right?

[00:20:19] Angie Callen: So for me, it’s really about making sure that human skills, human connection, and the fact that humans haven’t changed in the curiosity and need to be connected to things is really the, the, the root and the foundation of a group of people and a team, so that as AI comes in, there’s a strong foundation to adopt it instead of it blowing up because that foundation was not created, and that’s something we’re seeing a lot right now

[00:20:44] Jeff Sieh: Mm-hmm. I totally agree. As it moves so fast, it’s easy just to kinda roll with the tide, and I think we need to stop and like, “Okay, what can I make human?” You know? Or not give up. Like, let’s … And I think it’s a slow death. I, I like with, like a thousand cuts.

[00:20:59] Jeff Sieh: I don’t think [00:21:00] people like, “I’m just gonna not be human and give it all to AI.” I think it’s like, “Oh, this is easy,” and you mentioned the easy button and, and people are copy and pasting. same thing when Canva came out. Like, you could go through like Pinterest and go, “Oh, there’s a Canva template. Oh, there’s another Canva template.

[00:21:13] Jeff Sieh: There’s…” You know, like it’s, it’s almost like that like 10X, right? Because it’s so easy anymore. And so I think we, we have to all pause and take those breaks and go like, “Okay, did I really need to do that that way with AI? Maybe I should’ve just fired off an email instead of like, oh, what can chat do for me?”

[00:21:30] Jeff Sieh: kind of a thing.

[00:21:30] Angie Callen: Yeah. I think there’s the, you know, you bring up a good point, and this is, this is an idyllic thing to say, I recognize the fact, that myself included, we all should pause before we open Claude and say, “Do I actually need this to accomplish what I’m accomplishing? Or can I use my human brain to make sure the muscle continues to be worked to get the same result on the same amount of time?”

[00:21:54] Jeff Sieh: Good, good stuff

[00:21:56] Kira Pogge: I love that. I think that’s definitely a process that… I’m gonna write that on a [00:22:00] sticky note and just put it on the wall in front of

[00:22:01] Angie Callen: I think I am too, Kira.

[00:22:02] Jeff Sieh: that’s

[00:22:02] Kira Pogge: constantly looking at it while I’m doing work, ’cause I do think that’s a, it’s a beautiful question to ask ourselves, and like you said, it’s a muscle.

[00:22:09] Kira Pogge: Like, our creativity, ideation, strategy, like, all of those are muscles, and we don’t e- use them if we overuse AI. what about, you know, you talk about authenticity, so authenticity in leadership, authenticity in, in being the human that we are. How do we move forward, and what are you seeing between people online?

[00:22:28] Kira Pogge: Like, what’s the difference between actually being your authentic self and performing authenticity? Like, this is what I think an authentic person in this specific industry would look like or sound like. what’s that difference that you’re seeing when you’re going through coaching people?

[00:22:42] Angie Callen: Oh, that’s a loaded question. I actually have a couple… Oh, I get to shameless plug for a hot second. I have a couple, No More Mondays episodes of my podcast where we dig into this. Because I think authenticity has actually become a buzzword that has diluted and almost ironically changed [00:23:00] what people think authenticity means.

[00:23:02] Angie Callen: And unfortunately, performative authenticity, and the complete irony of those two words together, is almost more normal than j- than, like, genuine, confidence in who you are inside so that that person and that being and purpose and values can go exist outside of yourself. And so to me, authenticity is kind of that, like, self-actualization.

[00:23:28] Angie Callen: now we go woo-woo coach for a minute, right? There is this, it’s a, it’s, it, to me, it’s a sense of knowing and comfort in the knowing of who you are, what you stand for, and what your purpose is in this world, so that you can leverage that internal confidence in order to go out and relate to other people.

[00:23:43] Angie Callen: Now, this is the key, because it is in taking that authenticity and relating to other people that sometimes we have to shift context slightly. Because as a, an authentic human, I am gonna show up slightly differently, in my living [00:24:00] room with friends than I do when I go to a stage. But that doesn’t mean it’s a different person or that either is performative.

[00:24:07] Angie Callen: It means that I am taking my authenticity and putting in context of the container. And I think that’s an important thing to know, because we can very easily slip into abandoning that authenticity in order to shape-shift to fit the container instead of remaining the same with context to who else is in it.

[00:24:24] Angie Callen: That’s where the performative authenticity or the what we call authenticity comes up. You’re not authentic if you’re trying to think about how you need to be to get people to relate to you. Because if you are who you are, you put your ideas out there in context of the audience, they will naturally grav- gravitate towards you.

[00:24:41] Angie Callen: However, when you try too hard, now you’ve stepped outside of it

[00:24:44] Jeff Sieh: Yeah, I think that’s great. one of the things, and I wanna go back ’cause I think this relates to being authentic, is, that some of the time saved that, like, I was talking about, like, it took me, like, all day Thursday to get ready for the show on Friday. Now I can do it in about an hour because of all the tools that I [00:25:00] have to help me get things set up and put it to Ecamm, all the, all the different stuff.

[00:25:04] Jeff Sieh: so what I’m doing for that time I get back is I’m trying to be very, very specific and, you know, think about it, and actually leaving voice messages for people instead of comments. Like, I’m taking that time so I can go back and go like, “Hey, I hadn’t seen you around s- it was so great to see you, you know, comment on my Instagram Reel.

[00:25:23] Jeff Sieh: How are you doing? Tell me about your…” And actually leaving a voice memo instead of just typing it out, and it’s been a change of habits and thinking, and I still have to remind myself to do it, but I’m seeing it pay off because I think if we are very specific on how we’re thinking about, okay, time saved with AI to be more human, that’s the best of both worlds, in my opinion

[00:25:43] Angie Callen: Yes. Ooh, that’s a good way to think about it. And, you know, Jeff, what you just said was actually a part of my answer to Kira’s question I wanted to, but I got on my woo-woo soapbox and forgot, is that what I’m seeing from a practical perspective out there, and I’d be curious to hear what you two are seeing as, as [00:26:00] creators, is people gravitating towards content and types of communication that are genuinely, authentically, no question human.

[00:26:10] Angie Callen: So we’re seeing, you know, unedited videos g- are more popular than something that’s produced. podcasts are a great way. Even email marketing, I think, is seeing a resurgence because people know they can subscribe to something they specifically get from a single human, and they don’t have to scroll through a newsfeed of cat memes and AI slop in order to find it.

[00:26:33] Angie Callen: And, and I experienced this because there was a point where I was like, “Okay, we’re gonna get smarter about content. I’m gonna load all these transcripts from meetings, you know, into Claude, and it’s gonna give me some posts.” Guess what those five posts did? Meanwhile, let’s talk about how I flipped upside down on my mountain bike last week, and I’ll have 12,000 impressions

[00:26:50] Jeff Sieh: Right. Exactly. Yeah. our friend Paul Gowder is, is, he’s like the king of short form video. and he’s been doing, like he’ll do travel stuff, he’ll just do a hot take kind of thing, but [00:27:00] it’s very, you know, what they call those yap type videos where you’re yap- yapping into a thing. And he’s seeing tons of success, and he’s teaching it to other people.

[00:27:07] Jeff Sieh: And like even Sean from But Mostly Disney is, is doing that stuff, and it’s just killing it on these platforms by being authentic and just talking about stuff. In fact, I want to bring up, comment. He goes, “AI seems to be,” I think it means, he m- doesn’t mean pooping, but, “popping in for me, as a skeleton for me to add my own stuff.

[00:27:24] Jeff Sieh: It, it gets me moving through first step or when I am lacking motivation.” And, Paula says, ” AI has hijacked authenticity, and I’ve noticed it’s draining my confidence and self-esteem in ways I never considered.” So that’s, I mean, that’s the kind of the downside of it, as well. So hopefully, like you were talking about, the pendulum will swing back to the other human way.

[00:27:44] Jeff Sieh: I just, this happens over and over again, and, and everyone gets all upset, and then, you know, it comes back. And so I’m … It’s moving so fast, that’s what’s scary, but I think, I think we’re in, for the long haul. We’re gonna get more, more human.

[00:27:57] Angie Callen: I wanna, I wanna say something to what Paula just said [00:28:00] because, one, Paula, thank you for admitting that level of vulnerability, because I believe other people are feeling that and don’t think they should. Because we have access to this, quote-unquote, all-knowing being who knows all things historical data, and I think it feels as if we should be able to have a con- a conversation with it and feel confident in the output it creates or what it helps us do.

[00:28:21] Angie Callen: But because it isn’t human, we have just this little kernel of mistrust in it that actually makes us start questioning ourselves and our sanity. So it’s really, it’s just really interesting, can be a little bit dangerous, and again, ironic, that you can be inside a sycophant and still have, questionable self-confidence because of it.

[00:28:42] Angie Callen: And that is something we need to be watching out for and making sure that we’re still surrounded by humans who can be our sounding boards, validate or, debunk things that, you know, we might be pulling out of it

[00:28:54] Jeff Sieh: Yeah. Totally too. And we, we were talking about, like, the distrust of m- AI and, and we’ve ta- and Kira and I have talked about this in, in the [00:29:00] mastermind group as well, is like, you know, you have to be careful even saying that you’re using AI for your clients. We’re talking about in w- the, kind of the, the small business, solopreneur, area, because in some areas of the culture, it’s like, like young people, they hate it.

[00:29:14] Jeff Sieh: Like they just hate it. And it’s just really interesting ’cause my daughter is kind of on the, the verge of that, and we have some interesting discussions about all the things. and it, and even Michelle says, we were talking about being authentic, she goes, “This makes me more confident on my content.

[00:29:30] Jeff Sieh: It doesn’t need to be perfect. It just needs to be me and relatable.” That is so, so good. Yeah. And then, a great point how to, how to use things is, Tech Trou- Troublemaker says, “I love dumping all the context and content into AI to organize it and sort it out and find patterns, but you are right. This can dehumanize my content.”

[00:29:50] Jeff Sieh: So it’s that

[00:29:51] Angie Callen: That’s the right way to use it, right? Like, r- right? Use it to filter content, take large batches and, and distill it down [00:30:00] into, like, individual sound bites, recognize patterns. Don’t use it for the final output

[00:30:05] Jeff Sieh: Yeah. And speaking of ways to be authentic, well, you know what? You could go live, and the best way to do that is by our friends over at Ecamm. You can find out more about them at Ecamm.com/jeff. You can save 15% on your first purchase by using the code JEFF15. And I was so flustered at the beginning of the show, and I was so excited to have Angie on, I forgot to mention them.

[00:30:24] Jeff Sieh: But no worries, we do have a word from our sponsor So hopefully that you wouldn’t think that is AI slop, but that is something I’ve always wanted to be able to do, and I can do it now with AI, and it’s kind of fun. So

[00:30:53] Angie Callen: Was literally sitting here going, “And that is the perfect use case for AI.”

[00:30:58] Jeff Sieh: It’s, so it’s fun, [00:31:00] it’s novel. I, I enjoy doing that. But, let’s move on to our next section where we’re gonna be talking about, you know, how can we out-human the robots? We’ve been talking about that a little bit already. and I kinda wanna get to, like, the uncomfortable, practical part, and I’m gonna put you on the spot a little bit, Angie, because you have written something publicly that nobody of, at your level kinda says.

[00:31:20] Jeff Sieh: And you, you actually did a, you know, you mentioned your marketing stopped working, your LinkedIn went sideways, SEO leads went quiet or got junky. so if, if this broke for you, then it’s definitely broke for other people. and you wrote that, like, online content is up 57%, since generative AI showed up, and that standing out in that sea of sameness is harder than it’s ever been.

[00:31:44] Jeff Sieh: So in your business, what broke first that you noticed? Was it, you know, what did you see and how long did you take to admit, like, it wasn’t just a slow q- quarter, it was broken. Like, something happened in your business

[00:31:56] Angie Callen: Yeah, it, it it took probably close to a year to realize it, [00:32:00] and, and, and part of that is because i- there’s a, a convergence of things happening right now, a lot like happened, between about 2005 and 2010, where there are, like, multiple factors that are really snowballing, and that’s why it took a little while for me to realize what was happening, and AI is a big contributor to that.

[00:32:18] Angie Callen: But, you know, 2025 in particular was a really challenging year for coaching and knowledge-based businesses because, you know, AI really came in and exacerbated economic factors that were at play, social political stuff that- that’s happening out there that’s creating uncertainty and, and keeping people from investing in themselves.

[00:32:38] Angie Callen: And now you add AI to that, and there is the perception that it can do the things that we do. Now, it can do some of the things that, like, coaching and knowledge professionals do, but in a very limited, a, a limited capacity that we’ve gotta keep guardrails on, right? And so but we also know that in the market, perception is [00:33:00] reality.

[00:33:01] Angie Callen: And so it took a little while to figure out kind of how people were perceiving like, human coaches and human knowledge professionals versus what AI could do, and also to figure out how people were just buying in an economic market that had shifted. And so there were multiple variables there that I didn’t, I couldn’t identify right away, let alone start to solve for until I had both, you know, several months of data to look at and some peers who were s- telling me they were seeing the same thing.

[00:33:33] Angie Callen: And so, you know, it was, it was a really a, a challenge because, you know, I believe from a marketing perspective, we have, we are starting to see the shift away from, like, okay, so we had traditional marketing forever, right? Billboards and phone books and TV. And then we moved into the digital age, and now I believe we are shifting away from the digital age to whatever the new thing is gonna be, and I still think we’re in the, [00:34:00] the messy middle of figuring out what that is about to be.

[00:34:03] Angie Callen: But for years and years and years, a lot of us in knowledge-based businesses got really spoiled by exceptional inbound marketing thanks to digital presence, and that’s the thing that ultimately I star- I started realizing we have to get out from behind a computer and back in front of humans

[00:34:20] Jeff Sieh: Totally agree. Totally agree

[00:34:22] Kira Pogge: I think that’s a great point. And for, I think, you know, for people who are listening who have kind of depended on digital marketing and inbound marketing over the last, like, decade or so, and then some, what would you say is working right now? Because I love how you said the messy middle, ’cause it definitely feels like that, um, still, where people are like, “Don’t be on social, but be on social.

[00:34:42] Kira Pogge: Should you use email? Email is dead.” Like ev- you know, they’re all the headlines exist at the same time.

[00:34:47] Angie Callen: And you can confirm any one of them you would like

[00:34:49] Kira Pogge: Yeah, 100%. So for people listening who are in that space and they’re trying to build their small businesses, what’s working right now as we’re, like, in that transitional period? What would you [00:35:00] tell them?

[00:35:00] Kira Pogge: And do you still think that, like, newsletters and referrals are, are a way to go, at the moment?

[00:35:07] Angie Callen: Oh, there’s a, there’s, there’s many things there I wanna make sure I remember to, I remember to say at a high level, I think it’s don’t react. And what I mean by that is, like, don’t burn your boats, don’t shut down LinkedIn, don’t shut off Google business, don’t stop posting content. Because what I believe, what I believe is that the ecosystem that has al- already been a multifaceted SEO ecosystem has just gotten some new family members, right?

[00:35:30] Angie Callen: And so we wanna keep doing everything that we were doing that was working before, and figure out how to adapt, add, or modify based on the new family members that are generative search. OpenAI now has ads. So there’s just some things there that, you know, unfortunately, here’s a hard truth, we kind of need to be everywhere all at once.

[00:35:49] Angie Callen: Now, that’s where AI can help streamline that a little bit if we’re careful. but to me, it’s like, you know, the last year and a half of LinkedIn, LinkedIn has been my platform of [00:36:00] authority for almost 10 years, and in the last year and a half, I can’t feel like I can’t eke out an impression. And, that’s, that’s one because of the jump of 50% more content, but also because they’ve li- they’re changing their algorithms.

[00:36:14] Angie Callen: And so what we have to be cautious of is not to over-rely on any single source, and having kind of a diverse lead generation system, that has maybe, like, 20% from five places, or 10% from 10, right? because if somebody changes something you don’t have control of, or the, you know, economy changes and it shuts down one angle, you still wanna have some, some diversity elsewhere.

[00:36:39] Angie Callen: That can feel overwhelming, but it’s not quite as bad as i- as, as you think if you don’t react and you just keep doing kind of what used to work in any iterative form of the process while testing out some kind of new stuff. And for me, I have definitely seen the human, the human stuff really come back and connect.

[00:36:58] Angie Callen: So referrals have always [00:37:00] been a really high aspect of my business, but it’s, it seems even stronger now, because, people are shopping around, but referrals don’t shop around. and so it’s, it’s a, you know, high close rate, quality clients, and people that you wanna work with.

[00:37:15] Angie Callen: and the, the newsletter thing, you know, I, I write a weekly newsletter called Combating the Sunday Scaries: Seven Tips to Improve Your Week, and that thing still gets 40 to 50% open rates. And it has, no matter whether I have 500 or 5,000 people on a list, because it has trusted content with, like, loyal readers who know they want to read what I’m giving them.

[00:37:35] Angie Callen: And so that’s where it seems strange, because there’s a whole lot of emails I don’t open, but, there are a lot of people out there s- opting into that as their means of content consumption because it doesn’t have as much noise around it. So y- it’s, it’s, in a way, it’s almost like we’re coming full circle and g- doing things the way we used to do them

[00:37:55] Jeff Sieh: Yeah. One real quick follow-up, ’cause I, I agree with you. Like, one of my favorite things is sending out [00:38:00] newsletters and getting response back, is never automate your responses back. Like, don’t use AI to, to write those. Take the time and converse with the people who are reading your emails. I just think it’s such a great way to, talk back and forth.

[00:38:13] Jeff Sieh: I mean, it’s, it’s a little… I, I love, like, doing live because I can pull up comments and like, “Oh, this person…” And it’s harder for email ’cause there’s, like, s- you’ll write a great email and then you’ll hear nothing. And then you’ll, you’ll do your, like, your story where you flipped over your mountain bike, and people are like, “Oh my gosh,” and everybody responds back, and it’s like, it’s so bizarre.

[00:38:30] Jeff Sieh: But, I, I agree, but don’t automate that, for goodness’ sake, whatever you

[00:38:34] Angie Callen: No. And that, you know, Jeff, that is, it- that is fundamentally what I mean when I say get out from behind the computer and out in front of your humans. It doesn’t mean, now I do mean literally sometimes, get out from behind your digital marketing, go to an event and be with people in the flesh. But ultimately it’s also don’t hide behind your automations and make sure you’re out and communicating directly with your people, and responding individually to e- like, to emails is one great way to do it

[00:38:59] Jeff Sieh: [00:39:00] Yeah. One, so one thing, and this is one of my favorite things, you have written. And by the way, go get her book, Scary Good. It’s really great. And I loved, ’cause I’ve never seen this before, and I may steal it if I ever write a book, but I loved how you, for every chapter, and you had breakout spots of a companion podcast that kind of goes over that topic.

[00:39:17] Jeff Sieh: I thought that was genius. I hadn’t seen that done before. Kudos to you, ’cause that was really, really cool. So great

[00:39:23] Angie Callen: Thanks

[00:39:23] Jeff Sieh: Yeah. the thing that I wanna talk about is, like, this is probably the f- the best thing I think you’ve written, is like you, and I want you to tell the whole story here. You accidentally sent out like a template email that had never been filled out and was totally blank.

[00:39:37] Jeff Sieh: and it was the, totally the wrong send, but it got more replies than your normal newsletter. So what did that… What was the t- what, what did that teach you about that no strategy that you, like AI would tell you would have? Like, what did that teach you having that happen?

[00:39:53] Angie Callen: spend a whole lot less time thinking you need to perfect things. No, to me, it reinforced what we were talking about earlier with if it’s clearly human, [00:40:00] people will respond. So the story is, since there’s a lot of creators and probably people who do marketing around here, you know, we use ActiveCampaign for all of our marketing communications and our funnels.

[00:40:10] Angie Callen: And I had an event funnel set up, for a big event I run in January where, they had, like, three or four emails up until it, up until the event, and then there were some, like, follow-up emails afterwards. And there was an email in the sequence that just never got updated but was still connected to the sequence.

[00:40:29] Angie Callen: And so it was one of those just placeholders, like, “Hey, write this email,” and nobody ever actually wrote it. And so it sent out the ugliest template you’ve ever seen. The background color was, like, this skin color beige, which should never be in an email to begin with, and it had all these, like, cookie cutter stock images and writing that any normal human should realize was nothing I would even ever think about sending out.

[00:40:51] Angie Callen: And one of the buttons was schedule a session with me. I got, like, 12 responses that were like, “Hey, the, the scheduling button’s broken.” And I’m like, “Of [00:41:00] all the crap in that email, that’s the thing that you found?” and so whether that means that was 12 people who wanted to schedule a session or they just wanted to let me know the button was broken, I thought it was hilarious that, like, in this complete ugly email that went out that had no value, not only was it opened, but it actually warranted a response from people.

[00:41:22] Angie Callen: And so it’s just, we try so hard to perfect things, but ultimately it’s like, who had pooped instead of popped in

[00:41:28] Jeff Sieh: Yeah, Sean.

[00:41:29] Angie Callen: earlier? Yeah, I’m gonna remember that,

[00:41:31] Jeff Sieh: Because Sean, you, he could have said poop. That’s what’s so funny is like most of the time he would’ve, but anyway, that was, that was good. Yeah. it’s so funny you said that because one time, so I usually schedule the Friday morning emails to talk about the show at like 7:15, and I screwed it up and it went out 7:15 in the PM, right?

[00:41:47] Jeff Sieh: Like, really easy to do on your scheduling. Everybody emailed back going, “Hey, I got this at night. What’s going on? Are you okay? What’s the sh-” It was so funny, but it was the exact same thing as like, you know, until something breaks, you, you don’t know if people are out [00:42:00] there or not, but when they, when it

[00:42:01] Angie Callen: tells us maybe we should break things more often

[00:42:03] Jeff Sieh: yeah. When I did magic, so I’ll go back to my little magic stuff, one of the things, I would always screw up a trick at the beginning It was a comedy bit, but it would make the audience, it would endear yourself to them. Like, “Oh, this guy.

[00:42:13] Jeff Sieh: Oh, poor guy.” And then it would be funny, and then, you know, it worked on. So there’s, there’s whole psychology behind that, but anyway, I digress

[00:42:19] Kira Pogge: I think that’s the human connection though too, right? It, that, you know, they see you kind of mess up and then they, they cheer for you the rest of the time, even though it was intentional, right? ’cause they want you to do well, and you, like you said, you endear yourself to them. Um, Imperfection is relatable,

[00:42:34] Jeff Sieh: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:35] Angie Callen: ’cause no one’s perfect

[00:42:36] Kira Pogge: Absolutely.

[00:42:36] Kira Pogge: And it, and it also I feel like gives you that accessibility, you know, ’cause we all make mistakes, and I think sometimes people hold, like a creator or s- or an author, somebody that they really have valued their content to like a really high standard, right, they’re on a pedestal. and then they have imposter syndrome about what they’re doing ’cause they’re like, “I’ll never get there.”

[00:42:56] Kira Pogge: but we’re all just human, like you said, like your T-shirt says. so [00:43:00] you said, you know, when it comes to, you get so many responses in that email. When it comes to sales, I love that people were like, “Hey, I need this button to to book a call with you.” When it comes to sales, you said people are kind of committing less, and it’s n- less about the cost and more about the commitment.

[00:43:16] Kira Pogge: So instead of saying, “Oh, you have six months of access to somebody for coaching,” or whatever, instead of that being a selling point, it’s like, “Oh, it’s six months.” Like, is, they’re kind of uncertain about it. They have to make the commitment to do it. Am I gonna spend money on it and then not follow through?

[00:43:32] Kira Pogge: Like, when you’re trying to sell a product or a service that has that type of commitment, how do you meet people where they’re at, and why do you think that commitment issue is coming up now?

[00:43:42] Angie Callen: I love some of the words you’ve used, because meet people where they’re at has ha- is how I’ve actually been, you know, coaching some of my small business owners and, like, coach clients in how to be, what I call offer agility, right? We have to be, be a little bit more nimble in how, how we sell and how we, even [00:44:00] package our, our services and our offers now.

[00:44:02] Angie Callen: because you hit the nail on the head with, like, you know, I … People used to want these longer engagements where they felt like it would be everything they need to complete some sort of outcome or get to a certain milestone. And to me, the, you know, 2025, in my opinion, w- had the tagline, “Everything is uncertain, therefore everything is uncertain.”

[00:44:21] Angie Callen: And that really creates complete lack of decision-making in, and it happened in businesses, it happened individually. We saw it kind of across the board that everyone just sat on their hands. And that sentiment started to shift a little bit in the beginning of ’26 to the tagline, “Everything is uncertain, and that’s a certainty.” And what I believe that has done is it makes … It’s now making people want to move because they realize they can’t wait any longer to do the thing, implement the new initiative, hire the member, whatever it is. But, at the same time, they, they are hesitant to go all in on it. And so what we have found is that, especially in knowledge [00:45:00] services where it can be hard to get people to invest in themselves, giving them an entry point to build the confidence that, one, they will get value out of it and they will put the work in to get value out of it, is better.

[00:45:10] Angie Callen: And then giving them ways to kind of continue a journey with you is more effective than saying, like, “Yep, I’m gonna get you to the top of the mountain.” and, and it’s funny that you ask that question the way you did, Kira, ’cause for eight years in business my bread and butter was selling getting you to the top of the mountain.

[00:45:27] Angie Callen: And so I’ve psychologically really had to change how I sell and present my offerings to be much more almost modular or multi-phase, which means now getting better at upselling and cross-selling and introducing an- you know, an, an, a continuation versus this idea of, like, sell them once and give them everything they needed more.

[00:45:48] Angie Callen: and that to me is how we’re meeting people where they’re at. Because I’m also seeing that people are more willing to vocalize an objection to something b- because they wanna work with you, they just aren’t willing to [00:46:00] do it in the big way, and they’re more willing to say that so that you can work together to find a solution that is gonna get them enough value but fits within whatever level of, like, risk tolerance they’re willing to take on.

[00:46:11] Angie Callen: So, you know, being agile in our sales process is being nimble and, and, and accommodating to, to an extent, and meeting people where they’re at seems to be working a lot better than, here’s everything you need to be successful.

[00:46:25] Jeff Sieh: So do you think that’s why, you know, there’s still people putting out courses, but do you think that’s why cohorts where you’re kind of working along somebody, are becoming a lot more popular? Like, instead of like, “Hey, here’s a course. Go through it at your own pace,” it’s more like, “Hey, we’re getting all these group of people together.

[00:46:38] Jeff Sieh: We’re gonna go through this, and by the end of the cohort you’ll have this, this, and this.” Do you think that’s why it’s more popular?

[00:46:44] Angie Callen: I think that’s part of it. and I think that, that to me it that dovetails into the, the need for m- more human connection, and people want- don’t wanna be alone together anymore. They wanna be together, together. But the other side of that coin, in my opinion, Jeff, is we have complete digital fatigue.[00:47:00]

[00:47:00] Angie Callen: People don’t wanna be in meetings anymore. They don’t wanna sit in front of, like, asynchronous digital content, because they also, c- don’t know whether they’re gonna be accountable to doing it. And so I think that a, a live, you know, a live experience, even if it is digil- digital, is more palatable than just more screen time, and they have the, you know, connectedness and the community of other people for accountability.

[00:47:24] Angie Callen: So I think there’s a bunch of factors there

[00:47:25] Jeff Sieh: Got it. the last question of this section I wanted to talk about was, like, you have said the goal is not to out-market the robots, it’s to out-human them. So let’s make that really concrete. Like, if somebody watching this has, like, one hour on Monday morning, what’s the, the single most out-human thing they can do with it?

[00:47:45] Angie Callen: reach out individually to other humans

[00:47:48] Jeff Sieh: Oh, that was easy. Mic drop there. Okay. So practically, like just call them, do FaceTime with cinema text? Like what w- like when you say reach out to other humans, how can we do that? What’s, [00:48:00] what is your favorite way to do it?

[00:48:01] Angie Callen: Well, and I, I decided to just have the moment, because then there’s multiple ways that could look, and I think it depends on who those humans are. you know, none of us pick up the phone. Literally, I got a call from an unknown number 17 times in a row in the last 12 minutes, right? I’m not gonna pick up the phone.

[00:48:15] Angie Callen: and so to me, it’s thinking about the human or humans that you’re reaching out to and what’s the best way to meet them where they’re at from a communication standpoint. So very simply, that can often be the method with which you most often communicate. So if you’ve decided that every Monday in that hour you are going to text a friend you haven’t talked to in two or three months and go through a cycle, that’s a great way to do it.

[00:48:40] Angie Callen: Maybe it’s going on LinkedIn or Facebook or wherever your primary, like, group of contact contacts or, customers are, and sending individual messages to 10 of them. it could mean going into your email and sending an email to a prospective client that you talked to three months ago to say, [00:49:00] “Hey, you popped into my mind.

[00:49:01] Angie Callen: How are things going?” Right? So it’s, it’s, to me, it is taking the very individual route to communicate with another individual human in the method that they typically communicate with you in order to show you’ve taken that time to personalize outreach to them versus something mass

[00:49:19] Jeff Sieh: Got it. But, you have this one line I keep coming back to: “Strategy without empathy is a plan no one follows, and empathy without strategy is just good conversation.” So where do you see people watching this land, and what does the fix look like for each side?

[00:49:38] Angie Callen: So let’s decode that for a second, because strategy without empathy means go implement this thing, I don’t care what it does to you as a human, right? So classic example of that is, you know, an autocratic leadership environment where there’s, s- if everything is moving so fast, everybody’s gonna get burnout trying to implement a strategy, [00:50:00] right?

[00:50:00] Angie Callen: the flip side of that is if, if all you have is empathy with no strategy, you’re gonna sit around a room and talk about your feelings a whole lot and never get anything done, which is great in therapy and not very effective in business. and so there is a happy medium in which we think about how to implement a strategy, leveraging the strengths and caring for the humans that are going to carry it out

[00:50:24] Jeff Sieh: I, I just wonder as leaders, as we do this, like, what, what’s really concrete that we can take away? Because, you know, like we said before, this is changing so much. Like, how do we, how do we act- actually implement, like, doing it in, in real life?

[00:50:38] Angie Callen: Yeah, and, and, and let’s be clear. There has never been a more complex time to lead in business today, and I don’t care whether you’re leading yourself as a solopreneur or you’re leading, you know, a team of hundreds and thousands inside a Fortune 500 company. It is way more complex. And to me, where we bring together strategy and empathy as a [00:51:00] leader is to make sure we’re in tune with the strengths, motivation, and interests of the individuals, and even the fears of those individuals, so that as we roll out strategic initiatives, we’re not doing it at the expense of them

[00:51:14] Jeff Sieh: So let’s say you’ve been told by a manager or a partner or whatever, like you need to be more empathe- empathetic, right? Like you’re, you’re lacking that maybe in your leadership skills, or maybe you even know, like I struggle with this. Where can people go or how do they learn to be more empathetic?

[00:51:30] Angie Callen: you know, I think empathy, if you don’t have it naturally, is something that you h- it’s, it, it’s a like, go back to muscles, right? It’s, it’s essentially like, stepping into, a, you know, a weightlifting gym when all you’ve ever done is run. You are about to experience a com- very new act with muscles that are not used to that activity, and they won’t build to their, you know, full strength overnight.

[00:51:54] Angie Callen: And so to me, em- you know, you have to kind of set the intention to be more empathetic in order [00:52:00] to build that muscle. And things you can do are, if you lead a team, go sit down and have a half-hour one-on-one with every single one of them and ask them about individual goals, personal motivations, challenges that they’re having, and see them as another human who has aspirations and, and fears, right?

[00:52:18] Angie Callen: And, and then take it another step and be willing to do something about what you hear, because you may have somebody working on your team who is the right butt in the wrong seat, and you’re holding them to a performance standard that they’re never gonna meet because you’ve never taken the time to activate them properly.

[00:52:36] Angie Callen: Those are really empathetic acts that make a huge difference for an individual, and if you are willing to hear things you may not wanna hear and act upon them for the betterment of someone else, now you are looking at, you know, empathy. The same thing can happen at home. And to me, in the leadership world, and this is a little bit of a soapbox, we have to remember that leadership is not about you.

[00:52:58] Angie Callen: It is about the [00:53:00] people whose care has been stewarded to you. And in that is where empathy will help build more trust, more retention, better performance, and better productivity. So there’s a whole lot of business outcomes from bringing this to the table. However, it’s something that you will have to practice over time if it doesn’t come naturally.

[00:53:18] Jeff Sieh: That’s one of the things I highlighted in your book when you were talking about leadership, and it was like leadership is not just bossing people around. That’s not leadership, right? Leadership is exactly what

[00:53:26] Angie Callen: That’s

[00:53:27] Jeff Sieh: Yeah, you talked about like leadership is getting people to and encourage them to get to this goal together.

[00:53:32] Jeff Sieh: It’s not like, “Hey, do this,” which I think is, has been confused in our society. So I love that part of your book, so

[00:53:40] Kira Pogge: Yeah, I, I think it’s so easy, right? Everybody says it’s not personal, it’s business, but like what you just said, it’s the opposite. Nothing’s really just business. It’s all personal ’cause we’re all humans, and what you just said, you said, you know, yeah, sure, it leads to good business outcomes, but it, it starts with humans first, and if you’re not taking care of them, none of that other stuff is gonna happen.

[00:53:59] Kira Pogge: [00:54:00] So when you talk about leadership in a space that’s kind of filled with AI and leaders can kind of leverage that for strategy or kind of lean on it maybe a little too heavily, and maybe it does, like, half the work, you know, you, you said that leadership is really borrowed and that trust can be lost and gained very quickly.

[00:54:18] Kira Pogge: So if they’re using AI for a lot of their work, like, what does, being a leader in today’s world mean, and how can they make sure that they’re not losing that human el- element?

[00:54:30] Angie Callen: You know, with AI specifically, in my opinion, it’s, as AI likes to say, take a beat, right? Take a beat before just hurrying up and rolling out the next shiny thing. And, and what I mean by that is intentional implementation of AI within an ecosystem where humans are leveraging it and remembering that the humans are driving that ecosystem, right?

[00:54:54] Angie Callen: We still operate the vehicles, people. I don’t care what Waymo’s doing right now. and so remembering that [00:55:00] is important to what I would say the intentional use of AI is, and looking at where within a team do we bring non-human coworkers, and how do I talk to my humans to make sure that integration and that onboarding is gonna go well?

[00:55:16] Angie Callen: So it’s almost, as weird as this is gonna sound, thinking about AI being a coworker who has to be onboarded into a team that already has a culture, already has a connectedness. And so, you know, that, that just, granularly with how AI should come in and how we should be thinking about it as leader- as leaders is important.

[00:55:35] Angie Callen: Because then you could also have the flip side happening, which is everybody on the team is using whatever AI they want, and nobody’s ever put guardrails around that. That’s similarly a space where we need to have intention. And so to me, where we come back to strategy and empathy, is sitting down w- like, with your team.

[00:55:52] Angie Callen: Get input, people. This is like, like, newsflash in leadership. Input is a good thing to get and to share, [00:56:00] and for some reason there are still… there’s still some autocratic leadership out there that’s like, “Stay in your lane.” And that’s the worst thing you can do to bring empathy to an environment, build trust, have people wanna stay and work, and feel like there’s enough transparency, appropriate transparency, to work in the environment.

[00:56:15] Angie Callen: And if you’re bringing agentic coworkers in, you best have transparency and a conversation with the humans to make sure these people aren’t just gonna operate in fear of losing their job every day.

[00:56:25] Jeff Sieh: That is such a great point. And I love agenic AI. I think it’s super cool setting up the teams and all that

[00:56:31] Angie Callen: So nerdy

[00:56:32] Angie Callen: and

[00:56:32] Jeff Sieh: it is, I am very nerdy. But the thing is, is it’s so cool. now, now y- I said that, so Yes. So, I love agentic AI. I think it’s great. We’re, I’m building teams right now. But I think what you said is so key is that, is you make sure that you don’t scare people. Like, you let them know if something’s, if you’re trying a new tool or you’re doing something, let them know, [00:57:00] “Hey, I’m testing this so you can use it to save more time or do whatever.”

[00:57:03] Jeff Sieh: So don’t just like, “Hey, I’m gonna replace you with this bot.” Don’t… Oh my goodness. Come on, folks.

[00:57:08] Angie Callen: And you know, I wanna add one thing to this. by the way, former engineer who loves people, nerd alert, love it. the same sentiment should exist in human hiring as well, right? We should be thinking about intentionally bringing people into a culture and, and, and having a culture, right?

[00:57:26] Angie Callen: ‘Cause if you don’t have one, you have one, and it’s probably not a good one. But, but it’s this, it’s a similar, it’s a similar sentiment, different actions, to creating an environment where people want to work, feel they can be heard, and that the trust exists. The s- the same need is there when you bring a new human into that as when you bring a non-human into that as well, and that to me is this idea of, you know, empathetic leadership, but being very intentional about how that looks in practice

[00:57:53] Jeff Sieh: Yeah. So many good things. We could talk all day, but I know we can’t. So I wanted to give the, the perfect amount of [00:58:00] time for you to be able to tell everybody, Angie, this has been such a great conversation, where they can find you, where they can get your services if they need them, your podcast, all the things that is Angie Callen.

[00:58:10] Jeff Sieh: Please tell us where we can find you

[00:58:12] Angie Callen: the easiest place is themoderncoach.co, which is where you can learn about all the things we’re doing to engineer human potential. my podcast, No More Mondays, is all about, the fact that humans still matter, mediocrity is expensive, and ownership will change that. And we, have an episode every Monday morning to help you kick off your week in style.

[00:58:33] Angie Callen: And, if you wanna follow along in my antics, I post about them, probably more than you would like on LinkedIn

[00:58:39] Jeff Sieh: Very cool. Yeah, her book’s amazing, and see, you’ve already got people buying it. Paul says, “Grabbing your book, Angie. Great session

[00:58:45] Angie Callen: Yay

[00:58:46] Jeff Sieh: It is very, very cool. Where can f- people find out the amazing Kira? Where, where are you at, Kira? Where can people find you?

[00:58:51] Kira Pogge: can go to kirapokee.com, and they can follow me over at Instagram @kirapokeecreations, where I talk about being a theater nerd turned marketer who’s now [00:59:00] shifting to work more with theaters, ’cause I too am a nerd. Nerd alert.

[00:59:03] Jeff Sieh: right. Well, and, and Kira has been doing some really cool stuff over at Instagram where she’s taking songs and talking about them. So if you are any sort of theater geek or like musicals, make sure you guys go check out Kira, ’cause she’s got some really cool stuff, and great content. So, and as always, we love you guys.

[00:59:18] Jeff Sieh: Thank you for, Ecamm for sponsoring the show. You can find out more about them at Ecamm.com/jeff. If you like this show, well, guess what? I take the notes for you. You can go to jeffsieh.com/cheatsheet and it’s free. You don’t have to sign up, but if you’d like them in your inbox, it’ll come every week.

[00:59:32] Jeff Sieh: But you can also just download them there if you don’t want another email. Either way, go get the stuff that Angie has. It’s amazing. And you guys in the chat room are amazing. Tech Troublemaker, Fun in Key West, Sean from But Mostly Disney, Magai, Dustin Stout, of course. You guys are amazing because you are

[01:00:02] Jeff Sieh: [01:00:00] Thank you guys so much for watching. We’ll see you guys next time. Have a great one. Have a great weekend. Bye everybody

SHOW TRANSCRIPT

This transcript is automatically generated by Descript.  Any errors or omissions are unintentional.

[00:00:00] Michael King Jr.: creativity doesn’t happen without margins.

[00:00:02] Michael King Jr.: Creativity happens in the margins.

[00:00:04] Jeff Sieh: how do you change your mindset to get those margins? Because it’s easy to say we all need more margin, but then all of us have kids that are getting sick or we have to take care of our parents or whatever. So How do we get those margins in our lives?

[00:00:18] Michael King Jr.: build by design, build by intention. put the things into your calendar and into your life that you want. Like you know, if you’re a small business or an entrepreneur, maybe you’re another coach or a consultant, and you’re saying, “Hey, listen, I wanna dedicate only four hours of my time to actually doing one-on-one meeting, and the rest of my time I need to make sure I’m prioritizing space, I’m prioritizing creativity.”

[00:00:34] Michael King Jr.: allow that breathing room to actually end up in your strategic outputs, and put it in there as a strategy.

[00:00:45] Jeff Sieh: Hello, folks. Welcome to Creator News Live. I’m Jeff Sieh and you’re not

[00:00:49] Zac Brown: And I’m Zac Brown, and this is the show that keeps you up to date on the creator economy and so much more

[00:00:54] Jeff Sieh: You ever felt like the you that shows up online isn’t quite the real you? Maybe, like you’re performing a [00:01:00] version of yourself for that algorithm. And now with AI able to fake almost anything, you might be wondering what’s even left that makes you, well, you. But today we’re gonna be talking about finding your authentic identity, staying human in an AI world, and how to actually make a living being a creative

[00:01:18] Zac Brown: Our guest today is Michael King Jr., founder of Teams.Coach, a two-times best executive coach and keynote speaker who’s genuinely a category of one. He opens every keynote with a live saxophone solo and an original cinematic film. He’s part artist, part analyst, and today he’s showing how creators, solopreneurs, and small business owners can build something real around who they truly are

[00:01:42] Jeff Sieh: So sit back, clear your schedule, clear your mind to get ready for this week’s episode of Creator News Live [00:02:00] That’s right, folks. That’s the whole doggone game. Uh, I actually added a little bit of sax to this one today just in honor of you. Nothing like he sounds. He’s amazing, but I thought it would be a little bit of fun. Thanks for coming on, Michael.

[00:02:21] Michael King Jr.: Honored to be here. No, that’s pretty, that’s pretty classy, Jeff. Way to go.

[00:02:24] Jeff Sieh: Well, I always get a little nervous when a, when a guy who is, his whole business is music and he plays for a living, it makes me a little nervous to do that. But thank you for being a good sport about this. But we’re gonna be, we’re gonna be jumping right into it because I was so impressed with your talk, and you were very open, and you were very sharing, and we got to hang out a little bit in Wichita.

[00:02:43] Jeff Sieh: But, one of the things that you do in your presentations, you also ha- you not only play the saxophone when you start, but you also have, like, a movie that you show, and you have this new film called Paid to Pretend, and

[00:02:55] Jeff Sieh: I wanted to ask, for, like, a creator who’s performing a, you know, like, a polished version of themselves [00:03:00] online for years, a lot of people do this, so how do you even tell anymore which parts are real and which parts are not?

[00:03:08] Michael King Jr.: I have no idea

[00:03:10] Jeff Sieh: This could be a short show.

[00:03:13] Michael King Jr.: when we’re, when you, when… Th- this conversation ha- has come up mult- multiple times, like in business and in enterprise space, even in solopreneur and entrepreneur type space, because I think burnout ends up happening a lot because, like, when you’re, when you’re trying to show up and you’re literally trying to do whatever you can to be able to make the business work, make the family work, make it all work together, and you can literally die trying. And somewhere along the way, there’s a reason why strategies don’t work, and it’s not because of lack of good ideas. It’s not because of lack of creativity. It’s not. It’s literally like I… In fact, you’ve probably, you’ve… I, I think everybody could agree with this, is I- I’ve [00:04:00] seen some of the worst ideas that I could ever possibly think of actually get traction and work, and then you walk away going, “Didn’t see that coming,” you know?

[00:04:09] Michael King Jr.: but when you, but when you think about the idea of why strategies don’t work, it has nothing to do with, with the lack of creativity or the lack of a good idea or a bad idea. Typically, what it’s rooted in is the idea that maybe your strategies aren’t working is because they’re not yours. It’s not you.

[00:04:26] Michael King Jr.: And when you think about, you know, even, like, this podcast and the, and what you’re doing here, this is done really well. Like, you’re doing a lot of original things, and it’s very specific to your brand. It’s what Jeff can only do. Like, nobody else is doing this the way that Jeff does it. And there’s something about your existence that has to somehow translate over into your brand and into your identity.

[00:04:49] Michael King Jr.: What is the only way that you can show up? And I promise you this, is that, like, copying somebody else’s blueprint for success is not gonna work today. You’re gonna find yourself burning out and trying [00:05:00] to run everybody else’s plays, but the reason why they’re not working is because they’re not built for you

[00:05:04] Zac Brown: Mm.

[00:05:04] Jeff Sieh: That’s good. And, and I, I, and I think your is, y- your talk is a perfect example of that because I don’t know of a- any other speaker who gets up there and plays saxophone. Like, I mean, that’s, that’s you, and that’s your, your whole brand

[00:05:18] Michael King Jr.: Yeah, I was, the last couple weeks I’ve been on the road a lot. we did the Sports Philanthropy Conference, Sports Philanthropy World Conference in DC last week, and then we did some things in, in College Station. We did some stuff in Dallas, and then we, this week I was back in Dallas for the board of advisors, conference.

[00:05:36] Michael King Jr.: And I, I think even Like for me, I’m a good keynote speaker when I have my saxophone with me because it’s like breathing to me. It’s something to where it’s like I can get up there and I can, I can, I can level set the emotion of the room, and before I even say one single word, I’ve already kind of bared my soul.

[00:05:55] Michael King Jr.: Does that make sense? And that’s where for me it’s, [00:06:00] it’s, it’s not just a performance. It literally is just like going, “Okay, listen. I’m gonna literally lay everything out there and at the risk of making a fool out of myself.” Now I’d be … If I was a horrible saxophonist, it would be even worse How horrible would that be to open a keynote with somebody that was

[00:06:16] Michael King Jr.: horrible,

[00:06:17] Michael King Jr.: right But, But when you do think about it, though, there is that part of being an artist and being a creative, and especially even like with the cinematic films and the original music that we produce that we show later in the keynote experience, it’s like you’re either gonna love it or you’re gonna hate it, and I usually know that within like the first two to three minutes, you know?

[00:06:36] Michael King Jr.: And it’s pretty vulnerable

[00:06:38] Jeff Sieh: Yeah. I, I was super impressed. So we’ll dive … Well, I know we’re gonna dive into, to more of that because I, there’s so many creators and creative people. Like, I look at Sean, who’s doing amazing video stuff when he’s doing his travel stuff, and Dustin, who’s an incredible entrepreneur. So all these, and Paul Gowder, who is in the audience as well, who is an incredible, um, his powwows.com that he’s put together for years and years and [00:07:00] years.

[00:07:00] Jeff Sieh: they’re all very creative, and so I think this is gonna be a great conversation. Zac, you had a question?

[00:07:04] Zac Brown: Yeah, I so resonate with what you just said because talking about the things that are inherently you and what you bring, you know, you can’t fabricate that. And

[00:07:15] Zac Brown: I can’t tell you how many conferences that I’ve been to lately when everybody is just shouting, “Be authentic.” Authenticity is just like this word that is just everywhere.

[00:07:25] Zac Brown: but it’s become kind of like a performance kind of on its own. Like it’s a, the authenticity is a brand that you perform. Where do you feel that the line is between being real and just marketing your realness?

[00:07:38] Michael King Jr.: Um, execution.

[00:07:40] Michael King Jr.: You know? And, that’s where I can s- you know, like I’m thankful that right now I do believe that there’s a lack of, lack of people that can actually demonstrate that. so that’s a little bit of the niche that I, that I fit within. like my most requested keynote right now is a, is a talk that I give called Authentic Identity: Your Last Competitive Advantage. I’ve heard [00:08:00] other variances of the same type of concept and the same type of idea. but everybody has their own unique story, et cetera. But like everything about what I’m bringing to the table is, is exactly about that, is execution. Like everything is, is literally showing up and going, “Okay, I’m gonna peel this layer back and I’m actually sh- gonna show you exactly what this means to show up in the real and in the now.”

[00:08:20] Michael King Jr.: I think a lot of other pe- I think a lot of people understand the concept that, yeah, this is a, this is something that’s valuable that you should talk about. But how are you actually truly really showing up as your authentic self in your relationships, in your business transactions, in the identity of your company?

[00:08:35] Michael King Jr.: boy, those are good con- those are really great, great questions, you know?

[00:08:39] Jeff Sieh:

[00:08:39] Jeff Sieh: you know, one of the things that a leader has or a creator has in this AI age is their genuine humanity, and you talk a lot about that in your keynote.

[00:08:48] Jeff Sieh: But now AI can clone, like, a voice, a face. Like, you only need like a one minute of audio, I could clone, what you s- and Zac sound like. if a machine can fake my authentic voice, what’s actually [00:09:00] left that it can’t copy?

[00:09:01] Michael King Jr.: it can’t copy your convictions.

[00:09:04] Zac Brown: Hmm.

[00:09:05] Michael King Jr.: it can’t copy, like, your values. it can’t copy your heartbeat and the way that you care. the emotional connection between you and your audience, and empathy. Like, those are things that it, it shouldn’t and it won’t come close to those things.

[00:09:20] Michael King Jr.: Now, here’s where the, the compromises come into place, as leaders. Like, we want to be able to optimize the short game. You know, we want a fast return, and a lot of times we’re not actually thinking about the reason why people bought into us in the first place was because of high level of trust.

[00:09:35] Michael King Jr.: And the very things that we’re sacrificing to be able to go faster are the very things that we’re putting on the altar of, of sacrifice and that we’re giving up, and we’re losing trust because we’re not able to show up as our true, authentic selves in a world that is optimized for speed and autonomy

[00:09:55] Zac Brown: Yeah

[00:09:56] Jeff Sieh: Mm-hmm. That’s really good

[00:09:58] Zac Brown: It’s powerful. Michael, I [00:10:00] think kind of going off of that, a lot of creators are scared in a way that posting less polished, less produced, just really more human content will tank their reach. Have you seen anyone who’s dropped that performance showing up authentically and have it genuinely cost them?

[00:10:21] Zac Brown: And what did they do next?

[00:10:24] Michael King Jr.: I haven’t seen that. Now, there, there’s a, there’s a methodology and there’s thoughts about how our social media platforms they’re built to reward volume now. And so you’re seeing this to where, to where it’s, it’s like, the quantity of content versus the quality of content.

[00:10:42] Michael King Jr.: And, and then it goes into the next section of differentiators, like, okay, is it AI or is it not AI? Okay, if it is AI, let’s make sure we put a little badge on it. But again, we can’t A- and, and again, this conversation’s not about AI being bad. That’s not it at all. It’s just about the idea of like, as a leader and as a [00:11:00] human, are you actually authentically showing up first and foremost?

[00:11:02] Michael King Jr.: Because if you, if … ‘Cause again, like, if you’re actually showing up truly as who you are and you’ve got that identity section dialed in, guess what? The AI tool in your toolbox, boy, there’s a bunch of stuff there that can really help amplify and exponentially increase your reach as an authentic human, right?

[00:11:17] Michael King Jr.: As an authentic brand. but don’t lose yourself, don’t lose yourself in that, right? But like, for example, we, like our film series, I don’t know how many millions of views that we have across the whole film series across all verticals now, but we, we actually make sure that we don’t, we specifically don’t use AI at all in the creation process of it at all.

[00:11:38] Michael King Jr.: We kinda wanted to go old school with making sure that everything was done in a, in a, in a, in a really high level cinematically produced environment. so there’s that side of it to where it’s like, no, haven’t necessarily seen people lose their impact. Now, I will say this, is that like in a world that says qual- you know, like there’s some guys out there that are saying, “You gotta, you gotta post [00:12:00] content 10 to 20 times per day in order for you to, to, to beat the algorithm.”

[00:12:05] Michael King Jr.: Let me t- let me just remind us all of this. Like, we all use social media and we’re on social media now today, but 92% of your future business is gonna come from one of four spaces. It’s gonna come from the stages that you speak on, the rooms that you network in, the relationships that you already have, and the people who refer business to you. Did you notice I didn’t say anything about social media?

[00:12:24] Jeff Sieh: Yeah

[00:12:24] Zac Brown: So good

[00:12:26] Michael King Jr.: And where we end up burning out is like, dude, okay, great. For that, 8% of your future business that’s gonna come from these social media platforms, you’re probably gonna have a higher conversion ratio if you’re actually showing up authentically yourself in all spaces

[00:12:38] Zac Brown: Come on. It’s so good.

[00:12:41] Jeff Sieh: So, This is so true, and I can trace back the … Like, I do Guy Kawasaki’s podcast, big client. I’ve done it for over, I think, close to 10 years now. And that all came from a thoughtful comment back on Google+. There you go, Dustin Stout. And that led to a relationship. I saw him at South by Southwest one [00:13:00] time, and then Peg Fitzpatrick got me to do stuff for him, and then that was for his social media, manager.

[00:13:05] Jeff Sieh: And it just organically happened all this time ago. But I can trace everything, like how business started and compounding and all that stuff, from relationships, like being in the room. How I met Michael, who’s actually on this show, is because we were at a conference. We connected together. He saw me speak.

[00:13:21] Jeff Sieh: I saw him speak. And so, and then we were able to talk about stuff. And so that’s, I think, is the key thing. I think social media has its place, but I use social media to help me get people to this show, where we have relationship and we can talk and I can bring up comments. I think it’s like, like you were saying, Michael, it’s, it’s so much a tool.

[00:13:37] Jeff Sieh: And one of the, the, some of the comments, I want to pull up is Michelle says, talking to you, like, “I love how you open your talk. So compelling and attention graph- grabbing by playing the, the saxophone.” And then David says, “You have to be you. You can’t be, to be anybody else.”

[00:13:51] Jeff Sieh: And that’s what I wanted to ask Michael, is like, if you strip away the saxophone, the films, you being on a keynote stage, the spoken word, the applause you get, who is Michael King [00:14:00] when nobody is clapping, and how did you figure that out?

[00:14:03] Michael King Jr.: I’m a horrible human being you’re gonna take that clip right

[00:14:08] Jeff Sieh: That’s right. Exactly. Exactly. That’s gonna be it.

[00:14:11] Michael King Jr.: you know, the, as a, as a creative, creativity has to be a re- a direct reflection of the, the overflow of your life. You know? So as a singer-songwriter, it’s like I’ve been writing songs for, you know, for decades. I’ve worked with some great artists, and I’ve been involved in that creative circle for a long time.

[00:14:31] Michael King Jr.: And I, I remember one time, … So before I was an executive coach, I was, I was an executive pastor in one of America’s fastest growing churches, and also a worship leader and a worship artist, and also a recording artist. and I used to, I used to tell my team this. I said, “If there’s ever come to a point in time that you see me that I stopped writing and stopped creating, I need you to check in to see how I’m doing, because it- that’s probably a good sign that I’m not okay.”

[00:14:56] Zac Brown: Yeah

[00:14:57] Michael King Jr.: And so when you strip all this away, the [00:15:00] fact like that, like right now in this, in this season, like, like I get to create, I get to make things, I get to, put on display like the things that I care about, the things that I love about. Like creativity literally is a manifestation of the things that I care about the most.

[00:15:12] Michael King Jr.: But at the very, very basis of this is that I’m just a leader that’s incredibly gracious, incredibly, incredibly grateful for the life that I get to leave. And every room that I walk into, regardless of, regardless of anything, like I am committed to making sure that I leave every environment better than I found it.

[00:15:33] Michael King Jr.: That comes into the context with my coaching, comes in context with, with the people that I love and care about. And, I think that that’s why the creativity, it works because it’s a reflection of what’s already happening. Does that make sense?

[00:15:45] Jeff Sieh: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:15:46] Jeff Sieh: I would love for your thoughts on how to be more creative. Like we’re s- we, we feel kinda like we’re pressured in. We’ve gotta put all this content out, like you said, as creatives, and we see all these people telling us, “You’ve gotta do all this other stuff.

[00:15:58] Jeff Sieh: You gotta do this many posts a day. [00:16:00] You gotta be on Threads. You gotta be on all these places.” What do you tell creatives who are, you know are creative, and they have that gift, but are struggling to actually be creative, like because of the pressures of the world?

[00:16:13] Michael King Jr.: So creativity without margin doesn’t exist So think about that. And, and it’s even, like, even in the way that our, our, mind, i- our, our brains, like the actual, like physiology of who we are as humans, there’s something that’s absolutely crazy that ends up happening when we actually allow our br- our mind and our heart and our souls to not be under stress and n- not be under pressure, not be under the compounds of meeting the next, you know, deadline.

[00:16:46] Michael King Jr.: You know, like I got into an argument with my calendar earlier today and I just said, “Hey, you’re no longer allowed to go bumper to bumper between meetings. I need at least 30 minutes between, between commitments,” you know? And so made some adjustments [00:17:00] on that. But when you think about that, creativity doesn’t happen without margins.

[00:17:05] Michael King Jr.: Creativity happens in the margins. And some of the best songs that I’ve ever written, some of the best leadership concepts and ideas that I’ve written have happened, like where I’ve woken up in the middle of the night, it’s 3:00 in the morning, and I wake up and I just have this aha moment. I have a lyric that dropped.

[00:17:22] Michael King Jr.: I have a melody that dropped. I have a leadership concept that dropped. I’m thinking about something for one of the clients that I serve and I wake up and I, and I jot down the idea immediately. So it’s, there’s something that happens, like when we actually have open space. I remember sitting in a room at a leadership event and hearing Warren Buffett talk, they were talking about how he kind of built his calendar, and I can’t remember.

[00:17:43] Michael King Jr.: It was a, it was years ago. But I walked away from that idea of like, he literally has like one commitment per day, and then the rest of the time he lit- he kind of made the joke, joke about how he just spends his time looking out a window. Well, that wasn’t a joke. Like that was literally him going, “I’m doing whatever I can to actually protect [00:18:00] my margins,” because that’s when great things happen.

[00:18:03] Michael King Jr.: so anyway, did that answer the question?

[00:18:06] Jeff Sieh: yeah. ‘Cause I think the … We hear, okay, we need to have margin, right? Like, I know that. Like, I can, I know I’m more productive and more creative when I take breaks, but it is really, really hard. Like, I have this constant, and maybe it’s just me, but I have this, I don’t know it’s the way I … And I wasn’t, I had a great childhood.

[00:18:25] Jeff Sieh: I was raised, my parents were great. They didn’t put a lot of pressure on me. But I feel like if I’m not working, I’m lazy, right? And I almost have to use my downtime as like a prescription, like that if I, if I don’t do then, then my creativity’s gonna suffer, just like my health would suffer if I didn’t take a certain medicine or something.

[00:18:39] Jeff Sieh: how do you change your mindset to get those margins? Because it’s easy to say we all need more margin, but then all of us have kids that are getting sick or we have to take care of our parents or whatever. So what are your strategies to have that margin? I mean, you talked about talking to your calendar.

[00:18:56] Jeff Sieh: How do we get those margins in our lives?

[00:18:58] Michael King Jr.: I’m just being honest with you, like I’m a complete [00:19:00] hypocrite on this today. Like, you know, like so I don’t have it all, all the way together. But I will say this, is that like strategic design and making sure you’re time blocking the things that deserve priority and deserve space in your life. You know, build by design, build by intention. Like put the things into your calendar and into your life that you want. Like you know, if you’re a small business or an entrepreneur, maybe you’re another coach or a consultant, and you’re saying, “Hey, listen, I wanna dedicate only four hours of my time to actually doing one-on-one meeting, and the rest of my time I need to make sure I’m prioritizing space, I’m prioritizing creativity.”

[00:19:30] Michael King Jr.: allow that breathing room to actually end up in your strategic outputs, and put it in there as a strategy. Now, if you’re like me, I kind of feel like I’m building two s- separate things right now. And so life gets a little bit hard. Like I have this speaking career that in the last year that has, has kind of taken an astronomical uplift.

[00:19:54] Michael King Jr.: And I wasn’t … I, I was dreaming about it and I was hoping for it, but there’s also that side of like, okay, but I [00:20:00] also own two other companies that are successful, and I have team members, and I have clients that I wanna serve. And so j- trying to figure out how to make it all work, but at the end of the day, you, you have to be able to put together a strategy that’s going to work for you, and making sure that you’re actually prioritizing your emotional, psychological, and spiritual health, and that becomes the why, right?

[00:20:18] Zac Brown: Yeah

[00:20:19] Jeff Sieh: Yeah. Yeah. It’s such a struggle. I think everybody does it, and it’s like, you know, you hear all these, the gurus say like, “Okay, you know, work-life balance.” And my thing, I think it’s more of a seasons. Like I ha- my season was different when my kids were home. Didn’t travel as much. Now I can go and do stuff.

[00:20:35] Jeff Sieh: And so I encourage the, the younger people who are in the middle of like, “Oh my gosh, my life is chaotic ’cause I have kids and we’re taking them to school and soccer and whatever.” I always say like, “It’s a season.” Like, you can write the stuff down, think about it, but your k- family’s priority, you can have time for do, to do this stuff later.

[00:20:50] Jeff Sieh: So that’s kind of my soapbox answer.

[00:20:53] Michael King Jr.: Soccer will always take people

[00:20:55] Jeff Sieh: It will. Any sort of sports. Like, yeah, exactly. Exactly

[00:20:59] Zac Brown: I [00:21:00] just so resonate with you saying this about just the rest and the margins and the seasons, like you were saying, Jeff. Like, there’s a natural rhythm to all of this. You know? Th- there, the ground has seasons. You know? There’s a reason that farmers don’t just till up the ground every day to check to see that things are growing.

[00:21:16] Zac Brown: Like, we breathe in, we breathe out. Like, there needs to be this ebb and flow of work to rest ratio that I don’t think that we think about as much. You know? Like, we have AI, like you’re talking about things to make it easier. Those are there to give us margin. It doesn’t mean that we need to fill the space that that has alleviated.

[00:21:33] Zac Brown: So just one of those things that I’m very much in line with what you’re saying. And I want to go back to what you said a couple minutes ago about with your team. You had kind of given them this kind of personal check that if you were out of order from, you know, not creating, not writing, like, to let you know.

[00:21:52] Zac Brown: But from a leadership standpoint, what is your tell when, you know, someone is performing versus [00:22:00] being real?

[00:22:00] Michael King Jr.: Oh, that’s a really good, that’s a really good question. you know, the closer that you are to people, you, you kind of, you, you’re able to kind of tell, like, whether they’re, whether they’re engaged or whether they’re disconnected or not. the farther you are away from a leader, it’s really hard to be able to tell, like, are they just kind of like, are they just showing up in their brand, or are they showing up for real?

[00:22:22] Zac Brown: Yeah

[00:22:23] Michael King Jr.: and and I think, again, it’s, hard to tell the, the farther away you are from a specific person. But I think as a leader, not everybody can have close proximity to me, but the people that are close proximity to me, I want to be all in. You know? I want to be tr- as transparent as I possibly can.

[00:22:40] Michael King Jr.: I-

[00:22:55] Michael King Jr.: have you ever been in those relationships with people before to where it’s, it’s like every now and then you find out something about them, or you find out that they might have an opinion, or they might have a, a certain alliance with something that just threw you a curveball, and you’re, like, going, “What in the world? Where did that come from?” You know, I had this, I had this team member, and, I, and now I c- I c- come from a ch- a little bit of a ch- well, a lot of a church background, but I’m also very, very careful when it comes to things like manipulation and anything that [00:23:00] kind of feels like spiritual abuse type stuff.

[00:23:00] Michael King Jr.: I’m super, super cautious and careful to making sure, like, w- ’cause there’s, there’s real stories there, right?

[00:23:18] Jeff Sieh: right?

[00:23:20] Jeff Sieh: Right.

[00:23:21] Jeff Sieh: Yeah. Yeah

[00:23:22] Michael King Jr.: And I got invited onto this podcast a couple years ago, and I got blindsided by it. I, I didn’t, I was recommended by this guy to, to be on a, a podcast, and so I showed up on his podcast, and it, it literally felt like something that was just incredibly gross and spiritually manipulative, and it was not something that I would ever want to be a part of.

[00:23:41] Michael King Jr.: And I, I went back to my team member and I said, “Let’s not do that ever again.” Like, it doesn’t make anybody feel good. It doesn’t make anybody feel safe. It’s not, it’s not where I wanna be. And, and d- and here, but here’s the, I wanna be clear about this, is that just in case somebody tuned in, like, right when I was saying that, is like, I’m [00:24:00] a, I love Jesus, and I’m a, I’m a pretty huge fan of, like, the type of life change that can happen when you’re, when you’re in line with God’s will. But here’s the thing, is that, sometimes, like, those environments do bad things and, like, if a leader goes unchecked. Well, after I got done with the podcast and I said to, said to the team member, I said, “Let’s not do that anymore,” well, a couple years later, he, now this guy’s n- was no longer on my team, I noticed, like, he’s on this guy’s podcast.

[00:24:29] Michael King Jr.: Like, he had ag- everything that we had talked about that I’d shared openly with him about, like, that’s not who we are, and, like, it just kinda confirmed, I’m like, there is a reason why you’re not on my team right now, is because, like, I had, I have to constantly guess, like, who you are and what you’re about and what you’re aligned with, because I couldn’t, I could never actually feel comfortable because everything was a curveball.

[00:24:47] Jeff Sieh: Mm-hmm. So, um, and I think, I think we’ve all had that when somebody in our, our sphere throws you that, throws you that curve ball, and you’re like, “Okay, how do I deal with that?” Like, I had no idea that Zac was a flat Earther, but, you know, it’s okay.

[00:24:59] Zac Brown: Stop. [00:25:00] No, don’t. Do not tell people that. That is not

[00:25:03] Jeff Sieh: just kidding. Sorry, Sorry, that was… I had to do it, but

[00:25:08] Michael King Jr.: I thought that was an inside joke

[00:25:09] Jeff Sieh: No, no, no. he’s not. I’m just giving him a hard time. so I was so excited to have Michael on, I forgot to, uh, talk about, our sponsor of the show, which are our friends over at Ecamm. You can find out more about them by going to ecamm.com/jeff. They are what we’re doing to actually produce this show, have all the cool screens, do all the things.

[00:25:26] Jeff Sieh: And there’s actually Creator Camps coming up, and, Sean was even saying, “Hey, Billy, looking forward to meeting you at Creator Camp.” So that is coming up actually really soon, on September 28th through the 30th. They still have some tickets available, but if you’d like to find out more about that, go to ecamm.com/camp.

[00:25:43] Jeff Sieh: And I wanna ask the audience as we’re talking about this stuff, and

[00:25:45] Jeff Sieh: I feel like this is, like, almost therapy for me. It’s really good to, like, talk. I love creativity. I love talking about what makes us more creative and how we can be creative, and I think everybody’s creative. I always talk my, in my talks of about I believe we were created by the Creator to be creative.

[00:25:59] Jeff Sieh: That’s kinda my [00:26:00] mantra. but as a creator, what is one thing, and you guys can drop it down wherever you’re watching from, what is one thing you know in your heart is a gift, but you’ve never figured out how to charge for it, or even if you should charge for it? So let us know in the chat. What is one gift, like maybe…

[00:26:16] Jeff Sieh: I was, I grew up and everybody said, “Oh, Jeff, you’re so creative.” I stunk at school, so I think that was the only thing they could say. Uh, you got the creativity award. but, is there something that you know in your heart that you’re good at, but you’ve never really thought about make, should I charge for that?

[00:26:30] Jeff Sieh: Does it make it icky if I charge for that? What are your thoughts? Drop it down below, because we’re gonna talk about how to make a living as a creative. we kinda talked about the identity piece with Michael, knowing who you really are. But you can’t just know your authentic self. You gotta, some of us need to t- turn it into a business that can pay the bills.

[00:26:47] Jeff Sieh: So let’s talk about that, because I know a lot of people in the audience are that way. So you mentioned before you spent close to two decades making music and serving in ministry before any of this pays the way it probably is now. I was [00:27:00] a preacher’s kid. I worked in churches. I know how much most pastors get.

[00:27:04] Jeff Sieh: It’s, not great. But, what’s the honest version of how long you were broke or underpaid before you figured out this business side of what you really were called to do?

[00:27:14] Michael King Jr.: Until about 15 minutes ago.

[00:27:16] Jeff Sieh: There you go.

[00:27:17] Jeff Sieh: Good.

[00:27:17] Michael King Jr.: you went and you, you went and you Venmoed me, I think it was in the, like, was it, like, 20 bucks for

[00:27:22] Jeff Sieh: Exactly. that’s that’s the thing. Don’t s- don’t start a, a thing here. Yeah

[00:27:29] Michael King Jr.: Thanks, Jeff. yeah, no, I think, you know, like, the- there’s a longer st- there’s a longer story on that. But I think …

[00:27:35] Michael King Jr.: A true creative isn’t going to, like, put this different … I- they’re not gonna put a measuring stick as far as, like, whether they’re a creative or not. They’re not gonna put a green light or red light on creativity based off of monetization.

[00:27:46] Michael King Jr.: They’re just not, you know? I think for, so for me it’s, it’s, you know, we started incorporating in, the creativity of, of what I do i- in the last year and a half because my creative director had a conversation with me [00:28:00] and saying, “Hey, listen, just to be honest with you, there’s 4.2 million people on the planet who call themselves coaches, and there’s a lot of middle-aged, white, chubby dudes that are speaking on stages.

[00:28:08] Michael King Jr.: Like, how, what makes you different?” You know, type of thing. And we joked around about it a little bit, and so, but he was really pushing me and saying, “You’re probably one of the only executive coaches that’s also a, like, a legitimate recording artist. Like, let’s do something with it. Let’s, let’s figure that out.”

[00:28:23] Michael King Jr.: So that’s a good conversation. That, that was really good. We gave it a chance and, like, even if there was no audience for it, we’d still do it, you know? It’s, there’s something about it that m- it brings out a better side of, like, what I do. Now, we would probably keep tweaking it and adjusting it to try to figure out, like, is there a way for us to be able to get it to tick, to find its audience, et cetera.

[00:28:44] Michael King Jr.: but again, what’s your motivation of being creative? If it’s just simply to monetize, you’re probably not a true creative because a cr- a true creative just creates. And you’ll find ways to be able to utilize that within your business. Now, that’s what I do with people, is that, like, with, with our coaches, [00:29:00] consultants, other entrepreneurs, even small businesses, we actually take them through our id- identity framework to be able to find out, like, is there an actual edge or something that you should be doing creatively that can help you stand out?

[00:29:11] Michael King Jr.: Like, what creates that category of one type of experience so you can be able to do the things that you love, but also be able to, to run a business from it as well. and it’s been, it’s been really, really life-giving to be able to work people through that process.

[00:29:25] Jeff Sieh: That’s awesome

[00:29:25] Zac Brown: good I love that where you said you have to do those things like that are necessary so that you can do the things that you love. You know, it just kind of feeds the, the other creativity aspect of it. You know, I, I think most creatives resist turning their art into like a system or whatever because it feels like selling out.

[00:29:45] Zac Brown: You built a proprietary method, which is amazing, and a platform out of yours, and you named it The Creative Leadership Engineering. How do you productize a gift without engineering the [00:30:00] soul out of it?

[00:30:01] Michael King Jr.: it’s really, really easy. You know, Zac, if, if I was to sit down with you specifically and I would say, “What gives you life?” You know? Where does Zac show up as his best version of himself? you know, what is it that even Jeff, like, when you’re y- when you’re producing the things that you produce, like, if I came to you and I told you, “Hey, you are no longer allowed to do the thing that you love,” man, that would suck, wouldn’t it?

[00:30:25] Michael King Jr.: Like, that would literally, that would literally say, man. And it just happens to be, like, when it comes to business and entrepreneur, entrepreneurialism type of thing, this is,

[00:30:38] Michael King Jr.: there’s no off switch for this. Like, there’s no such thing as … Like, for me, it’s like I, I’ve always had a little bit of an entrepreneurial bent to me.

[00:30:45] Michael King Jr.: Like, even before I was doing this, like, when I was, when I was in ministry, I, I also owned a, you know, an imprint record label that we helped develop recording artists in the Christian music industry. So, like, there’s always been that type of thing. And so there’s always that little bit of that [00:31:00] hobbyist culture that comes to entrepreneurialism, right? it’s it’s fun. Like, it’s fun doing the things that we get to do. so, like, this is not about selling out. This is about helping our souls come to life. Like, this is the thing that we were created to do, and can you lean into that? Can you be honest about that? Like, I think the guys that are telling you, like, they’re trying to s- you know, like, they feel like they’re

[00:31:22] Michael King Jr.: I,

[00:31:22] Michael King Jr.: I’m not throwing shade on people that are, like, a little bit more of the purists that, you know, they, they feel like they’re, they want to do a little bit more of the grunge work and they feel like the only true expression of art is grabbing an acoustic guitar and sitting out underneath a pine tree for the squirrels.

[00:31:36] Michael King Jr.: That’s great if that’s your thing, but, like, art and entrepreneurialism, they go hand in hand. Like, we are creating and we are building. It’s for other people to enjoy

[00:31:46] Jeff Sieh: Yeah.

[00:31:47] Zac Brown: Paul Gowder

[00:31:48] Jeff Sieh: So it’s, it’s interesting you say that ’cause, like, I, I … My two favorite days are Mondays and Friday. Mondays I have Mastermind and I have an, two amazing Mastermind groups that we get together and we talk about stuff, and then we, on Fridays, [00:32:00] this is this show. Like, I get to talk to people, and like you said, if, if I wasn’t getting paid for this, I’d still do it.

[00:32:04] Jeff Sieh: Like, right? Like, don’t tell Ecamm. But, like, this is, I would still do this because it’s so much fun. I enjoy talking to people, and it’s how I can connect if I can’t get on a stage. but also it can kinda be, like, frustrating.

[00:32:16] Jeff Sieh: and I know a lot of musicians who would love to make it their full-time career struggle.

[00:32:20] Jeff Sieh: So what do you tell people who they can’t seem to monetize it?

[00:32:24] Jeff Sieh: Is it a reframing of their dream, or is it like you can’t … Like, I think this is why American Idol works so well is because they get ’em up there and they’re horrible, and you have great television because these people stinking, and they’re s- and I can’t watch it, ’cause I, I, like, it just, I can’t, I cringe.

[00:32:41] Jeff Sieh: It hurts my heart to see people who … Because grandma’s told them when they sang in church that they were amazing, and God wasn’t even happy about what came out their mouth. I’m sorry. He wasn’t. And so when do you tell people the truth like, “Hey, this can’t be a full-time career, but you can still do it as a hobby.”

[00:32:57] Jeff Sieh: Like, ’cause I know a lot of people probably come to you in your coaching [00:33:00] business, Michael, and, and sometimes you have to tell them some hard truth like, “I don’t see how this can be a, a money maker for you.” So how do you realize that yourself without having to go and get a lot of therapy and, you know, crushing your dreams and that kinda stuff?

[00:33:13] Jeff Sieh: What do you tell people who have a dream but maybe you, you can tell it’s not gonna make any money?

[00:33:18] Michael King Jr.: Do you want the pastoral answer or do you want

[00:33:20] Jeff Sieh: Oh, you can do both

[00:33:22] Michael King Jr.: let’s crush people’s

[00:33:24] Jeff Sieh: That’s right, right

[00:33:25] Michael King Jr.: You know, I, I used to get so frustrated as, as an early artist, to where I was in multiple bands that did showcases for people and we, we would, we… You know, a record label would bring us in to be able to do a showcase or, or whatnot, or maybe we did a, maybe we did a smaller scale, like a battle of the bands or something like that as an indie artist.

[00:33:43] Michael King Jr.: And then somebody would say the, the, the absolute cringe words that you never wanna hear as an artist. ” Maybe the thing that you’re doing is really just for you.”

[00:33:53] Jeff Sieh: Yeah.

[00:33:54] Michael King Jr.: and that’s, that’s really hard to hear, you know? and I, I don’t think that we live in that space to [00:34:00] where, like, it’s only that option or the other.

[00:34:03] Michael King Jr.: Like, it’s not. Like, and I think specifically there’s a lot of different, there’s a lot of different pathways to be able to get your art to be heard and to be seen. And to even to the person that wrote the, the comment up there that said it’s really hard being a songwriter these days. Absolutely. It’s super, super hard, especially with AI coming on the, the pace of…

[00:34:22] Michael King Jr.: now I know that there are some codes of ethics and different things that record labels and publishing companies are putting in place to making sure that, that the impact of AI is, is slowed down a little bit, but the effect on that industry is h- is huge, and it’s never gonna be the, the exact same again.

[00:34:37] Michael King Jr.: But I will say this, is that now more than ever, for you to be able to create your own space, for you to be able to create your own vertical, and for you to be able to create your own platform built on the thing that you love to do, you might not be necessarily great, but you might be able to find your audience.

[00:34:51] Michael King Jr.: You might be able to find your niche audience about specific things. Now, I remember when I went back, this is, you know, so a year and a half ago when we ha- started this [00:35:00] conversation, I started talking to some of our publishing partners and some people, at the record label of saying,

[00:35:05] Michael King Jr.: “Hey, I got this idea for what I wanna do with my next season as a writer.

[00:35:08] Michael King Jr.: I want to write songs about things that leaders are refusing to talk about.” And they literally looked at me and they said, “That’s the worst idea we’ve ever heard in our lives.” That there’s no way, there’s no way that that’s, that that would probably work. And, and then somebody else said, ” But usually it’s the horrible ideas that get traction, so let’s go ahead and give it a shot. You’ve been around long enough. There’s enough trust in this relationship. Let’s go ahead and give it a go.” And it worked.

[00:35:37] Michael King Jr.: It worked. Why? ‘Cause there’s, there isn’t anybody doing what I’m doing. It’s, like, a very niche type of thing. And I’m not, I’m not looking … We, we do releases to radio and, and to Spotify and Apple Music, all that stuff as well, but, but it’s not designed to be Top 40 radio. You know what I

[00:35:52] Jeff Sieh: right

[00:35:53] Michael King Jr.: It’s very much it used to for a specific purpose.

[00:35:56] Michael King Jr.: So, so in those spaces, like, if you, [00:36:00] if, if you’re a writer, find the place for you to continue to hone your craft. Find your place. Or a creative. Find your place that you can collaborate to where it’s a two-way street. Like, you’re creating, but you’re also getting better at what you do. Be consistent with building your stage, finding out how you build your own stage.

[00:36:16] Michael King Jr.: Build your own platforms. Become known for the thing that you love, and help your love for the thing that you do become contagious so it can bring out the best in other people around you. Does that make sense?

[00:36:25] Jeff Sieh: Mm-hmm. an example that I would just … So, like, at 1:00 today, we started this new show where I’m with Katie Fawkes, where I, I carve and she crochets. We’re not making, like, money. Like, it’s not … We had a, a sponsor who got us a camera. That was great. I’m very, uh, thankful for that. But it’s mostly of us enjoying what we do together.

[00:36:43] Jeff Sieh: She’s in New Hampshire. I’m here in Texas. And people show up and, and enjoy it. Like, but I did that not for making money, but it’s something that allows me to have a creative outlet and hang out with cool people in the comments. So I think maybe, like you were saying, is sometimes [00:37:00] you can do a mindset shift a little bit about, like, I can still be creative and do it in this, a new way, on a different, maybe a new even go live or whatever, and it can give me that, that creativity juice that I’m wanting to do and, and kind of maybe reframe it.

[00:37:13] Jeff Sieh: And I’m sure you do that with your clients in your coaching, is help them reframe that thought. Like, “You know what? You could do maybe this instead of, like, I’m gonna be a professional, you know, basket weaver,” which did not work out well for me

[00:37:24] Michael King Jr.: Yeah, absolutely. And, and, and, and because the desire, the desire or the reframe is it, it comes from a place that, that you need to, you need to scratch that itch. Like, there needs to be some sort of output there. but yeah. And maybe it’s not, maybe it’s not something that is necessarily meant for public consumption, but, like, there’s something that you can do to, to come to the table

[00:37:44] Zac Brown: Michael, a Fortune 500 executive called you the Jonah Hill from Moneyball but for business, which is such an incredible moniker. I just love that. For a solopreneur watching, anybody who’s in the chat today or watching this on the replay, how do you find the two or three weird [00:38:00] things that you’re great at that nobody else is combining?

[00:38:05] Michael King Jr.: and even in the context of all that, so like specifically that comment was made because, because I’m a weird kid. I’m super I’m just, I’m just goofy. But, but yeah, I’m, I’m left and right brain. One of my clients also calls me kind of like a unicorn. I’m incredibly creative, but I’m also incredibly strategic.

[00:38:24] Michael King Jr.: And then we, for Teams.Coach, which is our company that we do executive team coaching, and also high-level executive performing that. So we, we help build the world’s highest performing teams. But there’s a method behind it. It’s about communication. It’s about emotional and psychological dynamics that actually make up a team.

[00:38:41] Michael King Jr.: And so through what I’m able to do, I’m able to give accurate percentage increases as far as top-line revenue by making shifts on the org chart, by having higher levels of clarity within a team to be able to help optimize communication and culture and, and, and different things like that.

[00:38:57] Michael King Jr.: so for me, like the way that I found [00:39:00] out like my differentiator, you know, those two, there was a couple different things, is understanding, okay, what do- what is a relevant offer? Like, what does the business community need right now more than anything? And what is a specific perspective or a specific gift set that I bring to the table to be able to fit within those specific things?

[00:39:18] Michael King Jr.: That’s where there’s a lot of different opportunities that can come up.

[00:39:23] Michael King Jr.: So you might be, you might be a paintless dent repair shop, and your marketing, your angle, how you show up in your community, the things that you’re known for, they might be buried. Unbury them. Like making sure that when it comes to that identity quotient, that there’s something about, you know, these five specific questions like who am I?

[00:39:41] Michael King Jr.: What do I do better than anyone else? What’s the biggest problem that I solve? how do I make people feel and what do I want to be known for? And then the sixth one would be who am I for? Like again, brand and existence, they have everything to do with one another. And sometimes our brands are wrong because we built it off somebody else’s blueprint.

[00:39:59] Zac Brown: [00:40:00] Wow.

[00:40:00] Jeff Sieh: That’s really good. And that’s why I keep, I keep going back to … ‘Cause I, I s- kind of study keynote, ’cause I always wanna be a better speaker. I always, look and kind of try to analyze people who are … I see up on stage, and that’s what really got me about your talk, is like you, like no one does it, right?

[00:40:16] Jeff Sieh: Like you went for it and it worked. It could have not worked. People could’ve like, “What is this guy doing playing the sax in this movie?” Like, but it wasn’t, it worked. At least in the, the audience that I was in. it, it … You know, ’cause audiences can change. But,that’s what I think the people who have a chance to see you speak would be like, “Okay, take note on what he’s doing and how he’s doing it and how he’s saying it,” and, uh, I think you can learn a lot from that.

[00:40:36] Jeff Sieh: So once again, kudos to you for your, for your talk. But one of the things that I wanna kinda, before we get into some comments, is that what you are doing on stage, like the saxophone and the cinematic films, those things cost like real money and time to produce, right? Like you didn’t start there. That’s where you, you’re currently where you’ve ended up from many years of working.

[00:40:57] Jeff Sieh: So how do you decide when [00:41:00] an expensive, hard to scale, like signature experience is worth it, and what is kind of nice to have? Like, like we, we talked about before the show, I don’t take my five-string banjo up and play just because of the logistics of carrying that thing around. Somebody may have an upright bass. That might be hard to ship around the country doing talks, like a big huge, like a harp or a upright bass. So how do you balance what, “Okay, this is gonna set me apart. I’m gonna invest in making this happen,” and verse like, “Okay, I’m not there yet. I can see that in the future. I’m gonna work towards it”?

[00:41:30] Michael King Jr.: trial and error. You know? before I started incorporating this type of stuff into my keynotes, I’d been traveling and speaking on stages as, you know, the, the business strategist, the teams guy, for a while, and I got kind of tired of trying to be … And then this is just an internal thing.

[00:41:48] Michael King Jr.: This might not be for anybody else, but maybe you can relate to this.

[00:41:55] Michael King Jr.: But there’s this pressure that you feel as a communicator to try to be the smartest person in the room at times. and I got tired of that. I also got tired of being in rooms that were [00:42:00] boring. I got really tired of hearing horrible communicators getting up because they’re a business owner and they maybe had success in their specific thing that they were doing, but they just weren’t good communicators.

[00:42:11] Michael King Jr.: But they were invited on stages, and they were headlining events because they were successful at their one thing, but their communication skills really lacked. does that make sense?

[00:42:21] Jeff Sieh: Yeah, I think

[00:42:23] Michael King Jr.: it’s like, “Hey, here’s, here’s, here’s what I do. Here’s how I did it, and here’s what you should do. Now buy my book.”

[00:42:29] Michael King Jr.: No. Like, that’s, I, I’m about a transformational experience, and I wanted to make sure that I was somehow creating something that made sure that boring keynotes never exist ever again. Like, I was like, “Let’s kill that.” Um,

[00:42:44] Michael King Jr.: but, but along the way, like even before that, just because of relationships, I kind of had like

[00:42:51] Michael King Jr.: So there’s, you know, like in different worlds that I was a part of, like whether it’s like social media marketing world or Jessica Suter does an event up in, up in Ohio called, Social [00:43:00] Media Week Lima.

[00:43:00] Jeff Sieh: Mm-hmm. Yeah

[00:43:01] Michael King Jr.: Part of their speaker parties that they have is that they have a karaoke night

[00:43:04] Jeff Sieh: Yeah, yeah. Ecamm does that too. Yeah

[00:43:06] Michael King Jr.: Yeah.

[00:43:07] Michael King Jr.: And so I’m like, it was kind of like this weird, almost like this, this parlor trick to where I’d like, I would show up and somebody’d say, “Yeah, you should go do the karaoke.” And then so I’d go up there and I’d bust out a song, and they’re like, “What in the world? Where did this guy c- Like, he’s a real singer.

[00:43:22] Michael King Jr.: He’s not allowed here. Like, this should be illegal.” and that was kind of … And then I would start showing up with my saxophone and just doing lobby music just as a nich- an additional relational thing for the conferences I was speaking at. And then I was like, ” People seem to enjoy this.

[00:43:36] Michael King Jr.: Maybe I should start incorporating this into my, my talks.” And then once I got that on lock, then it was like, okay, so I had piloted it, I had tested it, I had felt how other people engage with it, and then I’m like, “Okay, I’m gonna invest a little bit into this and see.” And that’s when I started to actually write original compositions for my opening saxophone piece.

[00:43:56] Michael King Jr.: ’cause early in the day I used to do, like, cover songs. Like, [00:44:00] Don’t Stop Believin’. Or I used to, I used to Rickroll the rooms with, Never Gonna Give You Up, you know, ty- type of thing. But it was still fun, but the real impact actually started to unlock when I started to write my own thing, so.

[00:44:13] Jeff Sieh: So I think … When I started speaking, like y- you were told to, there’s a certain way, this is how you do it, and you get up there. And I’m like … And I would, it would make you nervous, and then you would go off and you’d feel gross, ’cause it was like that’s not really me. I just, I did a, I was an actor performing Jeff.

[00:44:28] Jeff Sieh: I wasn’t really Jeff. And then when I started incorporating weird stuff and, like, funny bits and, like, telling weird stories, that’s when it kind of unlocked. You know, kind of exactly your, your kind of same, same sort of thing. Um,as we kind of wrap up, I wanted to bring up some comments, ’cause we had some great questions from people.

[00:44:45] Jeff Sieh: But this is a great, comment from Apollo. She goes, “Do we believe our work is valuable because someone pays for it? Or do we make money from it because we first believe it has value?” So I thought that was a great,

[00:44:55] Jeff Sieh: great

[00:44:55] Jeff Sieh: point. Yeah. and this is a question from the amazing Mr. Fred. It’s good to see you, [00:45:00] Mr.

[00:45:00] Jeff Sieh: Fred. He says, “Do you hire towards a specific type of person? Or do you train them up to meet the requirements of your team? Or is it both?”

[00:45:09] Zac Brown: Good question

[00:45:09] Michael King Jr.: That’s a great question. So, c- let’s dive into that just for a second here. I believe in building by design, understanding, you know, what are we trying to accomplish as an organization? What’s our true north? What type of team do we actually need in place for us to be able to execute at the highest level?

[00:45:24] Michael King Jr.: Like, you have to have a clear vision as far as strategically building out your team by design. However, people change, and you’re not always going to find out, like, who is going to be the best fit. Specifically coming in from the outside, you have to have a strategy for development always.

[00:45:40] Michael King Jr.: And what you’re gonna find is that there, there are gonna be people that are part of your organization that are, that, that have high levels of loyalty, but maybe not high levels of performance.

[00:45:49] Michael King Jr.: And so there’s always a level of, of development that needs to take place. The last thing I’ll say on, on this, by the way, is that

[00:46:00] Michael King Jr.: we have metrics and KPIs in place within our organizations to be able to [00:46:00] measure performance and to evaluate it, but we don’t have anything really necessarily in place for us to be able to measure trust.

[00:46:06] Michael King Jr.: We have to be able to figure out how to get that gap, and that’s why internal development is so important because it’s sometimes you have a high-level trust player that’s not a high-level performer. Well, guess what? We can, we can change that

[00:46:18] Jeff Sieh: That’s great. I love that. It’s all about training and, and taking care of your team. So thanks for that question, Mr. Fred. Appreciate you, my friend

[00:46:25] Zac Brown: Fred’s always got good questions. Michael, you’ve said that whoever tells the best story wins. What is the most common place that you see creators and small businesses telling the wrong story about themselves without even realizing it?

[00:46:39] Michael King Jr.: Let me flip that just a little bit. Maybe the wrong story that you tell maybe you’ve made it about yourself a little bit too much You know, a really, really great place to tell your story, especially like on, on platforms, et cetera, like so if we’re looking at social media strategy or if we’re building our business, try to figure out a way to be able to make the story about your customer.

[00:46:57] Michael King Jr.: You know, like Burger King just did, uh, Jeff was [00:47:00] at my, uh, was at that keynote when I, I played a Burger King commercial that’s out right now on TV. It’s really a good play, but Tom Curtis, their CEO, he does a whole play on this idea of like, “We got it wrong. We actually put the, the wrong king in place.

[00:47:12] Michael King Jr.: We, we, we believe that it was about us, but it was actually about you.” And he did this whole reset about their brand to literally say, “Hey, we got it wrong. Let’s tell the right story.” And I think again, like, so if you’re challenging yourself, again, tell as many stories about your people as you possibly can.

[00:47:30] Michael King Jr.: we do that. It, and it’s, it is valuable. But then if you’re going to tell the story about you, tell something about transformation. Talk about that story because you’re gonna find people that have similar experience

[00:47:43] Jeff Sieh: That’s awesome. And the, the funny thing is, it j- I mean, I think it was in the news this week, is that Burger King just hit number two. They went up on the list of, like, the fast food burger chains. they went above, Wendy’s I think for the first time in a long time, and it’s because of that turnaround that you talk about in your talk.

[00:47:58] Jeff Sieh: So I thought that was very, very [00:48:00] cool

[00:48:00] Michael King Jr.: Super interesting. So it’s a, it’s a g- it’s a good play. It

[00:48:03] Michael King Jr.: really is

[00:48:03] Zac Brown: now I really want a Whopper

[00:48:05] Jeff Sieh: this has been, now I’m hungry. Now I have to go get lunch. So this has been great. I so appreciate of you giving… I have so many more questions, but I wanna make sure I value your time. I wanna let you have, uh, the last few minutes here to talk about, you know, what you’re doing, where people can find you.

[00:48:20] Jeff Sieh: If they want to come see you speak or they wanna book you as a speaker, like, where’s the best spot for them to, to find you? But once again, thank you so much for all your valuable insights today and all that you have,given us, uh, during our time together.

[00:48:32] Michael King Jr.: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. You know, when I first started this journey of creating this central resource, I created it with the idea that maybe I could possibly create something that lived forever and was meaningful and was talking about things that leaders are refusing to talk about.

[00:48:48] Michael King Jr.: So if you, if you’re a company or if you are running, running a team at all, please check out michaelkingjr.com. Please subscribe to my YouTube channel and feel free to reach out to me for our collaborator [00:49:00] package. It’s free, but I’ll actually give you access to a full leadership resource guide that goes along with our films that you can actually incorporate into your internal HR and your human development systems on your teams.

[00:49:11] Michael King Jr.: So you can have something a little bit more creative and maybe a little bit emotional to be able to bring to leadership development within your company. now I am the CEO and founder of Teams.Coach, so I’m the architect of some of the world’s highest performing teams. You don’t have to do this alone.

[00:49:25] Michael King Jr.: You don’t have to make the same mistakes over and over again. You can have some of the highest performing teams that break world records. So please reach out to me. You can check out teams.coach for my, coaching company, but you can also find everything you need through michaelkingjr.com

[00:49:37] Jeff Sieh: And it’s amazing resource that, he has put together. just in a m- if you have a chance to s- see him speak, go hear him speak. really, really fun. He was at Social Media Marketing World, but he’s, he’s, like, touring across the country, so if you see him, make sure to go and check him out and say, say hi.

[00:49:51] Jeff Sieh: Zac Brown, where can people find out, uh, more about the amazing Zac Brown?

[00:49:55] Zac Brown: You can check out my new website, ZacBrownCreative.com. There you will find my [00:50:00] podcast, my new book, and sign up for my newsletter. I would love to connect with you in a number of ways and share some incredible stories

[00:50:06] Jeff Sieh: And thanks to the amazing folks over at Ecamm. You can find out more about them at Ecamm.com/jeff. Don’t forget about their Creator Camp. it’s gonna be amazing. So many cool people in the chat are gonna be there. But I wanna thank the people in the chat, like Mr. Fred, Paula, George, Dustin Stout as always, David I get to hang out with him at Momentum all the time.

[00:50:24] Jeff Sieh: So thank you guys so much because you guys are Thanks so much for watching everybody. We will see you guys next time. Bye. Have a great weekend

SHOW TRANSCRIPT

This transcript is automatically generated by Descript.  Any errors or omissions are unintentional.

[00:00:00] Billy Thorpe: And then it was after I got into Amazon that people, started saying, “Hey, there’s all these companies in China, basically they don’t have a budget and they want us to make videos. Ha ha ha.” And I was like, “Well, wait a minute. And I started thinking about Starbucks. I’m like, Starbucks doesn’t make great coffee.

[00:00:14] Billy Thorpe: If you’ve ever had great coffee, then you know Starbucks doesn’t make great coffee. But they make consistent coffee all the time, and they don’t charge the most amount, but they don’t charge the least amount. And they can, you know, just burn and churn these, mediocre cups of coffee all day long.

[00:00:29] Billy Thorpe: So I was trying to think like, how do I be the Starbucks of video? Like, how do I… I don’t have to be the best top producing person. I don’t have to be bottom of the barrel, but how can I you know, like stack the… And I’m like, if Starbucks can sell $5 coffees and have a profitable business, surely I can sell 10, 15, 20, 25, $50 videos and have a profitable business.

[00:00:49] Billy Thorpe: And I can probably make a video faster than they can make a cup of coffee.

[00:00:57] Jeff Sieh: Hello, folks. Welcome to Creator News Live. I’m Jeff [00:01:00] Sieh, and you’re not

[00:01:01] Zac Brown: And I’m Zac Brown, and this is the show that keeps you up to date on the creator economy and so much more

[00:01:06] Jeff Sieh: Have you ever passed on an opportunity because it felt too small or too weird or a little bit beneath you? Maybe you’re tired of hearing that you need a certain follower count before anyone will pay you. Or maybe your whole income runs through one platform, and you’ve started to get maybe a little nervous about what happens if the rules change.

[00:01:25] Jeff Sieh: If that sounds familiar, you are in the right place

[00:01:29] Zac Brown: Our guest today is Billy Thorpe, the founder of Deal Billy HQ, back with us for a third time, the hat trick. He has produced somewhere around 4,500 videos in the last 44 months. Goodness. He has over 1,500 brand contacts, and he built the entire thing himself from Puerto Rico in about 25 hours a week. He got there by taking the deals every other creator in his space was too proud to touch, and today he’s showing us how to find that kind of opening in our own businesses

[00:01:59] Jeff Sieh: So sit [00:02:00] back, clear your schedule, clear your mind, and get ready for this week’s episode of Creator News Live That’s right, it’s the amazing Billy Thorpe here today. It, it was so funny ’cause it pulled that line, you actually said, “Hold my beer,” on the last

[00:02:34] Billy Thorpe: Hold my beer

[00:02:35] Jeff Sieh: so I was like, “That’s, that’s too good. I gotta leave that in.” So, that so much fun to have you here. Thank you for being on once again, Mr.

[00:02:42] Jeff Sieh: Thorpe

[00:02:43] Billy Thorpe: Absolutely, man. I, dude, I love what you do with all your guests. Like, that makes me just feel so special, and I’m now happy where I wasn’t, you know? No, I’m

[00:02:50] Jeff Sieh: What, what time is it? Is

[00:02:51] Billy Thorpe: me up.

[00:02:52] Jeff Sieh: what time is it in Puerto Rico, by the way?

[00:02:53] Billy Thorpe: I’m ahead of you. I’m like an hou- I think I’m, I’m 11:00 AM,

[00:02:56] Jeff Sieh: Okay, you’re good. Okay, not bad. All right, so

[00:02:58] Billy Thorpe: So I’m… Yeah, we’re good[00:03:00]

[00:03:00] Jeff Sieh: I wanna do a big shout-out because, Billy’s gonna be there as well, but the show is always sponsored by our friends over at Ecamm. You can find out more about them by going to ecamm.com/jeff. You can save 15% by using the code JEFF15 with your first purchase.

[00:03:13] Jeff Sieh: But we’re having the amazing Billy. He’s gonna be at Creator Camp. That’s right, Creator Camp, September 28th through the 30th, 2026. You can guys go and find out more about that at ecamm.com/camp. I’m gonna be speaking. Billy’s gonna be speaking. Paul Gowder’s gonna be speaking, Pat Flynn, Michael Hyatt.

[00:03:30] Jeff Sieh: Amazing people are gonna be there, so you guys wanna make sure you guys go check out Ecamm at ecamm.com/camp. It’s gonna be amazing. Billy, what are you gonna be talking about, by the way? I’m sure it’s something to do with,

[00:03:40] Billy Thorpe: I don’t know. Probably making money with content.

[00:03:43] Jeff Sieh: There you go, exactly, which we’re gonna be talking about today.

[00:03:47] Billy Thorpe: Hopefully Katie’s not listening when I said I don’t know. I’ll be getting an email.

[00:03:52] Jeff Sieh: exactly. but we’ve got some, some funny comments from… Rafael says, I’d be happy to hold Billy’s beer and watch him cook.” Well, there you go. [00:04:00] I don’t know. I, I, I don’t… Are you a good cook, Billy? I don’t

[00:04:02] Billy Thorpe: No. Absolutely, absolutely not. Actually, uh, no, not at all. I messed up breakfast this morning, actually. It’s sa- it’s, uh, it’s, it’s pretty fresh of sadness there.

[00:04:12] Jeff Sieh: Got it. Got it, got it. So, I wanna ask you guys, if you have, struggled with doing, like, deals, we’re gonna get into entrepreneurship. I’d, I’d love to know what’s your biggest struggle you feel as an entrepreneur, small business owner, solopreneur, what it is that you’re struggling about. Put it down in the comments, and we wanna bring it up and talk about, like, the biggest, you know, hurdle that you’re trying to get through.

[00:04:33] Jeff Sieh: But we’re gonna be talking about right now is the, the deals that nobody else wanted, and then that’s what Billy has done. So I want to talk about, first of all, kind of a thing I can’t really stop thinking about when I, think about Billy is when you were doing those $5 and $10 videos, you said, and I quote, Pissing everybody off in the creator video space.”

[00:04:52] Jeff Sieh: And people were telling you that they were, that you were ruining the industry. So take me back to that time. I remember when you were kind of, [00:05:00] you were in the same kind of circles as I was when we first started this Amazon stuff. what were they actually saying to you, and, what did you know that they didn’t?

[00:05:07] Billy Thorpe: I mean, what, yeah, what you said, like, “Hey man, what are you doing? You’re gonna- you’re messing it up for us.” Like if we all… You know, and it was kinda that whole thing, like if we all charge the same rates and we’re all super high priced, then we can, you know, we can all benefit or whatever. So, that was one of the things that people kept getting onto me about.

[00:05:23] Billy Thorpe: But it was kind of the sector of people that I was in relationship with at that time, like especially like on Clubhouse, a lot of big creators, a lot of YouTubers, a lot of people who spent a lot of time building an audience to then leverage for brand deals and sponsorship deals, and I didn’t really have any of that stuff.

[00:05:45] Billy Thorpe: So I was like, “Well, I think the one thing that I have is time, energy, and a s- repeatable system to create quality content quickly, and you guys are on YouTube, and YouTube is a whole other beast.” And so I, I think the [00:06:00] edge that I had was, was Ecamm. I mean, to be honest, like I was already producing a saltwater fishing podcast.

[00:06:06] Billy Thorpe: I got into content, you know, as a business, not as a creator, and so I was already making money from my saltwater fishing show. And so I thought, “Well, if I can do an hour show and switch scenes, I can do a two-minute video and switch scenes, and get it done in two minutes and make $10. Like, who else is paying me $10 for two minutes of my time?

[00:06:26] Billy Thorpe: Nobody. And I get a free product.” So that was, that was kinda my mentality going into it. I wasn’t a big content creator creating 20-minute YouTube videos and having all this overhead and workload. So that’s, you know, it’s understandable, but they just didn’t, you know, get the game, I guess, that I was trying to understand and play.

[00:06:47] Billy Thorpe: They… I really didn’t even know, to be honest, until I just tried it

[00:06:50] Jeff Sieh: Right. So really quick, a follow-up to that question is, do So you were doing, like, these videos and getting paid to do videos, which to me is a little different [00:07:00] than, they’re kinda like, they’re more of a sponsored video than actual getting a brand deal. So can you talk about, like, the first time you got a brand deal versus, like, just, you know, cranking out videos for the Amazon platform?

[00:07:11] Jeff Sieh: What did that look like? And maybe even explain kind of the difference between a sponsored video and, like, a, you know, a sponsored brand deal kind of a thing.

[00:07:18] Billy Thorpe: Yeah. Well, and, and I always wanna like kinda lay it out like this. Like, and I’ve been trying to make this make more sense over the years to be simpler to explain. And so I kinda think of it as like three different things. Like, and I like fishing, so I always talk about that. But like a pond, a lake, and an ocean.

[00:07:34] Billy Thorpe: And so, you know, I, I f- find that the Amazon Influencer space in particular is like a part of the video market. And the video market is all the way from home videos to Hollywood. Like, it is a huge industry, and there’s all kinds of little niche markets in between. And I, I think most people when they got in early to the Amazon program, they were thinking like YouTubers and that they were just thinking like, “This is the way it’s done on YouTube.”

[00:07:59] Billy Thorpe: And so, you [00:08:00] know, one, I think like brand deals or sponsorship deals or whatever you wanna call it, they kinda all mix and muddle together in UGC content, and you really have to go in there and split hairs yourself to understand how each one of those segments kinda work and operate. And some of this stuff is new, like Amazon Influencer Program.

[00:08:17] Billy Thorpe: And I just went and met a market where it was. So I didn’t really like create this low… I wasn’t going and saying, ” “Hey, I know this guy’s doing $10,000 videos. I’ll do it for

[00:08:28] Jeff Sieh: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:29] Billy Thorpe: I wasn’t doing that. I was responding to people who said, “I only have $5. What can I get for five bucks?” And I go, “I think I can create something for five or 10, and I didn’t have, you know, anything going on there. But anyway, so before that though, I had done like a $10,400 deal from my s- podcast sponsorship, and that was more of like sponsored content, like what, you know, would be more traditional like brand deal type of

[00:08:55] Jeff Sieh: And they give you direction and that kind of stuff. They tell you what to do kind of in

[00:08:58] Jeff Sieh: [00:09:00] Okay. Okay, good.

[00:09:02] Billy Thorpe: I

[00:09:02] Jeff Sieh: You just do what you’re at. Yeah. Okay

[00:09:03] Billy Thorpe: you know, but yeah, like in more of a UGC deal, that’s more where it’s like, “Hey, here’s this brief. Now you’re gonna go through this, and we need these 30 separate pieces of B-roll in here, and it’s all gonna be smashed into 30 seconds.” And, you know, and that’s real work. I’m not really doing that.

[00:09:18] Billy Thorpe: I’m hitting record, doing my video, hitting stop, trimming the ends, and uploading it. so once again, man, I think there’s so many different, like, little nooks and crannies in this video space, and there’s so many different ways to monetize. but yeah, there’s, you know… I take a line from Liz Wilcox pretty often, where she was talking about her community, and she said, “It’s low ticket, low responsibility.”

[00:09:41] Billy Thorpe: And I’m like, I love that. Like, I do that in my own business where it’s like I’m doing video, but it’s low ticket, low responsibility. If I, you know, screw up a $50 video, I’m not getting a phone call from someone’s lawyer. Like, they’re just sending me an e- they’re sending me an email going, “Hey, can you fix this one thing you messed up?”

[00:09:58] Billy Thorpe: And I go, “No, [00:10:00] I’m… It’s 50 bucks.” So I’m, “Okay, whatever. What product do you want now?” You know? So, so yeah, I don’t know, man. There’s a lot of ways to chop up the, the video space for sure.

[00:10:09] Jeff Sieh: Very cool

[00:10:09] Zac Brown: Billy, somebody offered you the easy out recently. You know, you’ve talked about this, that, you know, that you undercut the market by accident, and you cut them off, and you were like, “No, I know exactly what I’m doing.” So walk me through, like, what was the math that you were running there? How did you know that a $50 video was a business and not just cheap labor?

[00:10:28] Billy Thorpe: I mean, to be honest with you, in the beginning I didn’t really know anything. I didn’t really know what I was doing. ’cause once again, I was on this app called Clubhouse, and I was, I was talking about sponsorship deals for podcasters, and everyone else was talking about YouTube, and then Amazon came into the, into the picture.

[00:10:43] Billy Thorpe: And then it was after I got into Amazon that people, you know, started saying, “Hey, there’s all these companies in China, basically they don’t have a budget and they want us to make videos. Ha ha ha.” And I was like, “Well, wait a minute. And I started thinking about Starbucks. I’m like, Starbucks doesn’t make great coffee.

[00:10:58] Billy Thorpe: If you’ve ever had great coffee, then [00:11:00] you know Starbucks doesn’t make great coffee. But they make consistent coffee all the time, and they don’t charge the most amount, but they don’t charge the least amount. And they can, you know, just burn and churn these, you know, mediocre cups of coffee all day long.

[00:11:15] Billy Thorpe: So I was trying to think like, how do I be the Starbucks of video? Like, how do I… I don’t have to be the best top producing person. I don’t have to be bottom of the barrel, but how can I stack, you know, like stack the… And I’m like, if Starbucks can sell $5 coffees and have a profitable business, surely I can sell 10, 15, 20, 25, $50 videos and have a profitable business.

[00:11:37] Billy Thorpe: And I can probably make a video faster than they can make a cup of coffee.

[00:11:40] Jeff Sieh: Right. Yeah

[00:11:41] Billy Thorpe: I’m like, I think I’m doing better than Starbucks. I just can’t s- I just can’t scale as well.

[00:11:48] Jeff Sieh: So tell me if this is what kind of the big lesson is. I think, you know, a lot of the big creators in the space kind of had egos on these high ticket deals, and you, you pretty much went, “No, that’s not what I’m gonna do,” because you, you [00:12:00] were making money. So how much of your advantage do you think was strategy, and how much of it was just like, “I have nothing to protect”?

[00:12:08] Jeff Sieh: Like you said, like the $50 video, you’re not gonna get a call back from a lawyer. So how, how do you balance kind of that? Is that, you think that’s why you got the success that you got?

[00:12:16] Billy Thorpe: Yeah, I think in the beginning I just didn’t have any, you know, I wasn’t like these other content creators. Like, they spent years building their brands, building their channels, building their reputation online, and I was like new kid on the block who had already pushed back against the podcast industry pretty hard that, that would say I needed all these downloads and stuff to get a brand deal and a sponsorship deal, and I already went and, and did that with a fraction of what I was told I needed.

[00:12:41] Billy Thorpe: And so I was al- I’ve always been kind of that entrepreneurial, like, scrappy, like, “Oh, yeah? Well, let me see if I can do it.” Now, I could’ve been super wrong and tried it for 90 days and, and, you know, been crying and licking my wounds, but I tried it for 90 days, and I just told my wife, like, I’m gonna go all in for 90 days, and I’m gonna just [00:13:00] see what happens.

[00:13:01] Billy Thorpe: And at the end of that 90 days, I’d made way more money than I did on that first sponsorship deals for my podcast and what I was making off of my podcast. So I’m like, all right, I’m gonna give this a few more months, and then I’m flipping the script. I’m out of here, you know? so I mean, I think I f- you know, I figured it out on accident, but then strategically built the system to meet the need in this piece of the market

[00:13:24] Jeff Sieh: Very, very cool. ‘Cause I remember cause everybody kind of pooh-poohed some of the, the, ‘ cause a lot of it came from overseas, and a lot of people were like, “Uh, it’s n- don’t waste your time on that. It’s junk,” and like, and you were like, “Nuh-uh. I can crank this out and I can make money.” So I think that was, I mean, that was really fascinating, ’cause I remember seeing it happen.

[00:13:39] Jeff Sieh: Like, I was there in the comments watching, stalking the Casio, you know, all the people saying stuff, and I’m like, “Okay.” And then, then you, I, you know, as we got to know each other and I was seeing like, “Oh my gosh, this is pretty amazing,” I love it that you took stuff that people didn’t wanna do and did it.

[00:13:53] Jeff Sieh: It’s almost like Dirty Jobs. It’s almost like Mike Rowe. Like, you know, like something that nobody wants to do, like, “Oh, you know what? I’m gonna do it and I’m [00:14:00] gonna make money at it.” So kudos to you, my friend. That, it’s

[00:14:02] Billy Thorpe: There’s a lot of guys out in the world right now, guys and girls, cleaning up someone’s else’s dog poop and making a ton of money. Like, And they don’t have any ego. I mean, you gotta just go in there. And I think that’s when you look at the numbers, when you look at the big scheme of like a b- or big picture, I guess, of any business, it’s like, I don’t really care how the money comes.

[00:14:25] Billy Thorpe: Like, s- if I’m doing what I want and being able to make the kind of money that I want and hitting all those goals at the end of the year, what does the profit look like? That’s all I really care about as a business owner. And I think that’s where I had a little bit of a edge coming into this thing that most people didn’t have, is they got into content for content and whatever their goal was with the content.

[00:14:46] Billy Thorpe: I got into it ’cause I’m like, “I’m here to make some money. I think this is a, a profitable industry

[00:14:51] Jeff Sieh: Yeah. Very, very cool

[00:14:53] Zac Brown: Billy, you have this line that I love, that if you read in a blog that you need 10,000 followers of a certain follower count, [00:15:00] that that number is probably just wrong. You’ve proved it by selling a $10,400 sponsorship on 400 downloads. So how does somebody watching today you know, how do they figure out which gatekeeping rule in their own industry is fake?

[00:15:15] Billy Thorpe: Well, uh, you know, a couple things, man. I think if somebody is just harping on something like, “This won’t work, this won’t work, this won’t work,” one, kind of look at their, what they have currently going on. And so this is what I did. The, the person that I… And I’m not gonna say who they are, but the person that I was following a lot in the podcasting space kept saying this 10,000, 10,000, 10,000.

[00:15:37] Billy Thorpe: Well, when I dug into what they had going on, they had their podcast, they had some podcast business stuff going on, but they worked, like, a full-time job. And I’m like, wait, this guy does- this guy’s trying to tell me I can’t make money doing something that he did. He’s not even trying, so let me go try and just have a different conversation and figure out what do brands and sponsors and companies actually want, not just [00:16:00] what we assume they want.

[00:16:01] Billy Thorpe: And so that was the, the thing that I took into this business, was a sales background where I, first of all, owned a business that was all T-shirt sales, so if I didn’t make sales, I didn’t make money, so I had to think about how to have conversations, overcome objections, all that stuff. Then I got in the podcasting world, same thing.

[00:16:20] Billy Thorpe: The big objection that stops everyone was like, “You gotta have a huge audience. You gotta have all these downloads.” That helps. Trust me, if you have a million followers, like, that’s gonna be way easier, but it’s not impossible. You just have to find what that company actually wants. And so we had a, a saltwater fishing show on the coast of North Carolina, and they sold boats to people who lived on the coast of North Carolina.

[00:16:41] Billy Thorpe: And so the math was mathing for them and for us. And then there were some other things that you, when you have these conversations and, and it w- on a business-to-business conversation, not just a, “Hey, I need money, and I’m a podcaster, and I’m a creative, and I, I really gotta pay for my, you know, hosting plan.”

[00:16:58] Billy Thorpe: But it’s like when you’re [00:17:00] saying like, “Hey, tell me about your business. How does this work? How does your advertising budget work?” And then come to find out boat dealerships get compensated from, you know, motor companies for ads that their motor you know, presents in. So, ” Whoa, cool. Well, you don’t even have to pay for this ad.

[00:17:15] Billy Thorpe: What’s the price? How much are you gonna give you? Well, that’s the price of the ad. Let’s move on.” You know? You, you get free advertising, and we get some money, and we, you know, we’re partners, so let’s go. so yeah. I think that’s the thing that a lot of content creators are not doing, is thinking like a business owner.

[00:17:32] Billy Thorpe: And it’s ha- I mean, it’s tough. It’s not like I did either, you know? I’ve just owned a lot of failed ones to have a successful one so.

[00:17:40] Zac Brown: But I like how simple that is that…

[00:17:41] Zac Brown: so many people were just seeing the one closed door and taking that as the end all, you know, be all, end all truth and walking away. You took a second step, a second glance to go, “Well, m- what else is out there?” You know? Maybe that is true for your avenue, but you’re like, “Let’s see how this can work for what we’re [00:18:00] doing.”

[00:18:00] Zac Brown: It’s just that second step of curiosity and just asking questions to get the door open

[00:18:05] Billy Thorpe: Well, and you know, a big– and the numbers game is really because of a CPM rate. So it’s cost per milli or, or, you know, it’s like, “I’m gonna pay you $10 for 1,000 downloads.” So whatever times 1,000, right, downloads. So, that’s how everyone was selling sponsorship deals, everyone, when I got into the game. And I’m like, “Wait a minute.

[00:18:23] Billy Thorpe: I’m putting your advertisement into my show forever, and as long as it’s on YouTube and I’m h- paying my hosting fees for my podcast, I’m baking in that ad, and it’s gonna be there forever. So am I to send you an invoice in perpetuity, like forever? Or do you just wanna pay me a premium fee for a one-time ad spend?”

[00:18:45] Billy Thorpe: Like, it’s a one-time ad spend for a lifetime ad. And when I started having that conversation, even with big marketing agencies, they’re like, “No, it’s CPM or nothing.” I go, “Well, I’ll send you an invoice forever. Like, I don’t know what we’re gonna talk about

[00:18:58] Jeff Sieh: right

[00:18:59] Billy Thorpe: [00:19:00] You know? It’s like, you can pay me a premium and we can just move on and, and it’s gonna be in there f- forever and ever and ever, and those videos are gonna get watched, those podcasts are gonna get listened to.

[00:19:09] Billy Thorpe: and you know, it’s not dynamically inserted and taken away. I’m too lazy for that. I’m like, I’m not… I’m putting it in, I just leave it. I don’t care. I’m never gonna look at that again.

[00:19:17] Jeff Sieh: Yeah.

[00:19:18] Zac Brown: So good

[00:19:18] Jeff Sieh: Yeah.

[00:19:19] Jeff Sieh: one of the things, that I think that a lot of people struggle with is, you know, they, they see these gurus and these influencers and, you know, I’ve done it too, and you’re like, “Oh, I can– If I just replicate their system, I’ll make their same success.” And you’ve gotta remember, the algorithm has changed.

[00:19:37] Jeff Sieh: Like, the YouTubers who have, like, 100,000 followers, YouTube was different when they started than where you are. Now, you can take– I’m not saying don’t take anything they say, but kinda filter it. Like, okay, this is different than it was. There’s some best practices I can do, but I’ve still gotta experiment and try new things.

[00:19:54] Jeff Sieh: And, this is one thing I w- really wanted to talk about with you, Billy, is like, you know, someone watching [00:20:00] who runs a small business or makes content, and there’s an opportunity in their world that everyone agrees is, like, beneath them or too small or too weird. how do they find it? Like, what does an un- an unpopular opportunity actually look like from the outside before anyone knows it works?

[00:20:16] Jeff Sieh: Because you try to see ahead, you try to see all the different angles, and you’re not– I think the other thing is, is you’re not scared to try things, and if it doesn’t work, you move on. Am I right in thinking that?

[00:20:26] Billy Thorpe: 100%. Yeah, 100%. I, I think you have to always… If you’re gonna be an entrepreneur, you have to always try to, like, have your head on a swivel and get ready to pivot at any moment, ’cause it can just change. And the minute you think that, “Oh, I’m… This is great. My system’s perfect, and I’m gonna make money and do this forever,” something will change.

[00:20:47] Billy Thorpe: And so, you know, I think first of all, you have to be okay with the lifestyle of entrepreneurship. Like, it’s a lifestyle. Like, I’ve had wins and losses and successes, and there’s times I’m looking on Indeed going, “I’m [00:21:00] just gonna go work for somebody else. I can’t deal with this anymore.” and it happens to all of us.

[00:21:04] Billy Thorpe: And, and I think really to find those things, like, I always go against the grain just because that’s my personality. I’m pretty skeptical most of the time. Like, my baseline is like, “Nah, I don’t really know.” So if, if it’s good or bad, I’m like, “Yeah, I don’t really know.” I’m gonna go have to… You know, I’m the dumb kid.

[00:21:21] Billy Thorpe: I gotta go figure it out myself and go, you know… just to get off topic a little, we got one of those little fly mosquito zappers, right? So I got one of those. I take it home to my wife. I go, “Look, honey, somebody sent me one of these things.” I’m zapping mosquitoes, and I go, “Oh, I wonder if it really hurts,” ’cause it says, “Don’t touch.”

[00:21:37] Billy Thorpe: And I’m like, “Eh, pshew.” And I’m like, “Yep, it hurts.” You know? I’m that guy. So, you know, and so when people are like, “Oh, low-ticket brand deals don’t work,” or, or whatever, just take a, take a look at it from all angles. You know, life is like a diamond, I guess, or whatever, like a box of chocolates. Like, look at it, like, from a bunch of different ways and just see, can I serve this market, and can I do it in an [00:22:00] efficient way that will be profitable?

[00:22:02] Billy Thorpe: ‘Cause I mean, that’s all that matters is, like, are you gonna profit, or are you not gonna profit? Like, if you’re not gonna profit, who ca-… And who cares about revenue? By the way, I guarantee you, most content creators and most people in this business, they’ll be the fastest people to show you the top line, but they will not show you what actually comes out the other side after all the stuff runs through.

[00:22:23] Billy Thorpe: And so if they’re not willing to share that, then walk away. It’s crazy

[00:22:27] Jeff Sieh: There’s a lot of people who, like, they’ll say, like, “I have six-figure income,” but they spend seven, right? Like, they just like… It’s a little crazy how they, how they do that. but you and I are a lot alike. I mean, you know, you said you’re experimenting with things and, like, the bug zapper. Yeah, I peed on an electric fence when I was a kid.

[00:22:42] Jeff Sieh: it’s, it’s really bad. now whenever the microwave bell goes off I lose control of my bowels, but other than that it’s fine. I’m okay. Um,but I think we are a lot alike in some of the stuff, trying some new things. God, I mean, uh,Zac, you have a question?

[00:22:54] Zac Brown: All I’m just picturing is, “Hi, I’m Jeff Sieh, and welcome to the cow fence.” you know, Billy,

[00:22:59] Jeff Sieh: That’s right. [00:23:00] Don’t do that, man. I’m not wearing my Depends. Go ahead

[00:23:03] Zac Brown: we’re off the rails. I love what you were saying about, like, being okay with the, you know, entrepreneur life. Like, that is a mental game. And, you know, so there’s mental hoops to jump through. I’m so interested in those valley moments because we wanna do this, it looks fun, and then things get difficult.

[00:23:20] Zac Brown: Things get tricky. How do you get out? Like, what are those hoops for you, like, in all honesty, that you have to go through, and what do you do to keep going?

[00:23:28] Billy Thorpe: I mean, there’s a l- you know, there’s a lot of stuff that, that happens n- I mean, you, you don’t expect. You know, like earlier last year there was like a bunch of tariff stuff going on. All my clients are overseas. They’re in China. That’s like everything that I get into my, you know, studio to make a video of is coming from, from China, has a tariff attached to it.

[00:23:50] Billy Thorpe: And so there was at one point where I just looked back and said like, “Man, I’ve been in this space for almost five years. I’ve spent four years you know, and I’ve made over…” I [00:24:00] didn’t update the bio, but I’ve made over 4,800 pieces of content on Amazon, 4,500-plus paid, you know, paid deals, and I’m, you know, early 20- ’25 like looking at this thing going, “Oh, it’s all over.”

[00:24:13] Billy Thorpe: Like, it’s over. And, and I thought it was 2020 all over again ’cause that’s how I lost my T-shirt printing business. Like, I catered to huge audiences, and we all know what happened. And so I’m like, I just looked at my wife and said like, “This sucks, but what’s, what’s next?” You know? And I think that’s, some of it’s in your control, some of it’s out of your control, and that’s why I’m real passionate about the business model that I have because I wanna be in more control than not.

[00:24:39] Billy Thorpe: Not that I’m always in… N- we’re… none of us are fully in control ’cause we have to have other people and people do business with people and all that. But, yeah, I think it’s one of those where it’s… I mean, the first couple times you get kicked in the pants, you’re just like, “I’m never getting back up.” But then after you get kicked in the pants like 10, 15 times, you build up a tolerance to getting kicked in the pants and you’re like, “All right,” like, [00:25:00] “let me go pee on the electric fence now to train more,” you know? So

[00:25:05] Jeff Sieh: Well, the, the thing i- I think it does make you more resilient. Like, I know now, like, I’m like you, like I’ve got burnt enough times that I, I’m very diversified. Like, I know I can pull another lever if I need to, if something happens. and I don’t want anything to happen, but I think I’m confident enough, like, if something changes or I lose a big client or, you know, I can’t go on do live streaming anymore, I’m pretty confident that I can figure something out.

[00:25:28] Jeff Sieh: Like, I don’t know what it is, but I’m pretty confident that… I mean, this has happened in the past, it’ll happen again, and I’ll just deal with it because I’ve had to. Is that what kinda you’re saying there?

[00:25:36] Billy Thorpe: 100%. Yeah. Yeah. And it’s like, and I can always clean up dog poop. I know those people make money, so I’m going.

[00:25:42] Jeff Sieh: Exactly.

[00:25:44] Billy Thorpe: I’ll see you in the backyard, you know? It’s like

[00:25:46] Jeff Sieh: right. You do- yeah. So, in 2024 when you were on the show, you told us the mistake is niching down too far, and you said you should be the guy talking about toothpicks and electronics.

[00:25:58] Jeff Sieh: Do you still feel that way [00:26:00] two years later?

[00:26:01] Billy Thorpe: I, you know, I, well, and we’re probably more talking about the Amazon space. And if it’s the Amazon space, I still feel the same. I still feel like diversifying in that space, especially early on, creating more content’s gonna get you more, more people looking at your con- it’s gonna get you more notice.

[00:26:17] Billy Thorpe: Like, every piece of content’s my best sales guy. My next piece of content’s my best sales guy. And so I think in the Amazon space in particular, yes, that is true. I don’t know that I b- I, I don’t believe that with podcasting or YouTube or, or anything else. I think you have to, like, keep your, keep your wits about you and know, you know, like, be 80/20.

[00:26:39] Billy Thorpe: Like 80%, we know what’s going on, we know what you’re gonna talk about. 20%, you’re off the rails. Like, it’s fine, you know? But, Amazon, no, man, just do toothpicks. I made a lot of money doing fingernail videos in the beginning, so fingernail clippers, you know?

[00:26:54] Jeff Sieh: That’s right.

[00:26:55] Billy Thorpe: Not, not fingernails. I would, but I

[00:26:57] Billy Thorpe: didn’t know how to press them on

[00:26:58] Jeff Sieh: so one of the things I, I [00:27:00] wanna talk about, like I think a lot of people miss about Billy in this next section. You know, everybody hears, like, cheap videos and they think how much he’s hustling, and I really think it’s kind of the opposite.

[00:27:09] Jeff Sieh: Like he has a CRM, he has software that auto-connects his content, he pushes one button and uploads 50 videos a day, and he works 25 hours a week because, um, we’ve talked before even offline, like you want that time to spend with your kid and your family. and you told Matt Stagliano on The Generator something that stopped me, You said, “If you’re relying on the click, the algorithm, the view, the watch time, you do not own a business, you own a side hustle.” So let’s, let’s talk about that in the next section because if you are relying on the click, the algorithm, the view, or the watch time, this is gonna sting for a lot of people because e- even me, that, you know, we, we kind of talk about like that’s how important that is.

[00:27:50] Jeff Sieh: So let’s talk about what’s the actual dividing line on that and what did you mean by that quote you, you gave to, uh, Matt?

[00:27:56] Billy Thorpe: Yeah. So, you know, first of all, I think being, like I [00:28:00] said, in more control than not of your business is the most important thing. And like you said earlier, Jeff, like being able to pull the lever and have something happen for you is the most important. You know, if you don’t have leverage, you don’t have, you don’t have anything in business.

[00:28:14] Billy Thorpe: And so in my particular situation, you know, working with Amazon for the last five years, and, and they change, they change stuff in their business every, like, two months it seems like. It’s, it’s like, oh, I gotta chase another algorithm. I gotta chase another thing. Well, vertical video works, horizontal video works, thumbnail works, no thumbnail, sit up upside down on top of your head, like, share offsite, share onsite.

[00:28:38] Billy Thorpe: You know, you c- put your grandmother in the video. It’s like there’s so many different things. And then, like, even for YouTube, I mean, I f- I follow this guy who’s over at Think Media, and it’s like every two months it’s like, “The algorithm changed. What you need to know now.” You know, it’s like, okay, well, hold on a second.

[00:28:53] Billy Thorpe: Like, I just figured out what I was doing two months ago. so, you know, one, for me, I’m just not that detailed. I’m like I [00:29:00] don’t keep up with platforms that much. And so I’m like people do business with people. People don’t do business with clicks and algorithms and all this stuff.

[00:29:08] Billy Thorpe: It’s like if I can’t email someone or call them or get creative and help them solve their problems and their business, then I just don’t think it’s a good business model. And it’s a great… I mean, I call it all maybe money. You know, I’m wearing my shirt that says, “No maybe money.” It’s kind of a lie. I love maybe money.

[00:29:24] Billy Thorpe: I make a lot of, “I’m gonna upload the video. I hope it gets on the carousel. Maybe it gets clicked. Maybe it gets viewed. Maybe it gets bought. Maybe it doesn’t get returned. Maybe it gets shipped.” You know, there’s a lot of maybes there for you to make money on Amazon. But one thing that’s, like, guaranteed is I got paid for that video before I hit upload.

[00:29:41] Billy Thorpe: And so that’s where I’m a little bit more… I’ll, I’ll not make as much money off of a platform as I could because I wanna protect the future of my business, and so that’s where I’m, I’m, I’m a little dogmatic about that. Not that everyone should, ’cause some people, if you work a 9:00 to 5:00 and you got a great [00:30:00] salary and you plan on staying there for a long time, then sure, who cares?

[00:30:03] Billy Thorpe: Make all the maybe money, take all the risk. Like, if you don’t care to lose it, then invest into their business. But I’m trying to invest into mine, not Amazon’s.

[00:30:13] Jeff Sieh: Well, the, also the, the thing that you, because you’ve made that system so fast, you kind of like, even if it doesn’t work for that particular video, you’ve got another one coming up right behind it that’s already been paid for by a sponsor. So you’re not double-dipping, but I mean, we’ll get into how you make money, like, with all those videos in a little bit, because it’s really genius.

[00:30:32] Jeff Sieh: You make it on the, the front end, what the platform does, but then also selling the product later on the back end, which is genius. You got a full circle kind of way that you do things, which we’ll talk about, but, great, great stuff

[00:30:44] Zac Brown: I love what you’re talking about, Billy, about the relationship and the people, like that you’re connected with them. you know, you have over 1,500 brand contacts, and you said if Amazon kicked you out tomorrow, you would just email, you know, all the people that are following you and raise your prices.

[00:30:59] Zac Brown: So [00:31:00] practically, how do you capture and keep those contacts warm, and what would that email actually say?

[00:31:04] Billy Thorpe: That’s a great question. so I’ve been watching your guys’ podcast. I’m trying to learn how to keep those emails warm and get that email list right and nurture that. And, you know, a lot of these companies are, like, overseas, so it’s not, it’s not like they’re reading my articles trying to figure out anything, you know?

[00:31:19] Billy Thorpe: So it’s, You know, for me, I, I think it’s just about having that contact info, having that brand’s information, and then if, you know… I mean, God forbid Amazon does that. If they kick me out, I’m losing a lot of money, but I’m not out of business, and that’s my most important thing is, like, I don’t wanna be out of business.

[00:31:35] Billy Thorpe: And so, yeah, my… You know, the email would probably be like, “Hey, this sucks, but, I’ve been working with you for years and I’ve been uploading the video. Now it’s double the price. You can have the video.” And they would… ‘Cause all, all these companies want is content, right? And it’s like they either wanna use it on their platform, you put it on your platform.

[00:31:52] Billy Thorpe: Like, they all need marketing material. They all want to educate customers, and they wanna get people across the conversion line, you know? So it’s like, I will just [00:32:00] offer a different And once again, I’m with Jeff here. I don’t know exactly what that offer’s gonna look like, but I know it’s gonna be made, and it’s gonna be made thousands of times with one push of a button because I have done the work to collect those, relationships and those emails and, and especially with, you know, people I work with all…

[00:32:17] Billy Thorpe: I mean, there’s some people I’ve worked with for four years every single week. Like, they’re sending me two, three, four products. So it’s like I have some really good relationships there. or I broker other people’s deals, you know, with those relationships. So

[00:32:31] Billy Thorpe: something there’s gonna happen for sure.

[00:32:33] Billy Thorpe: I, I mean, I got a lot of outs when I have s- pay- paying customers. I got a lot of outs

[00:32:38] Jeff Sieh: Yeah, so I, well, that’s one of the things I think is so smart about what you do is, like, you’re not scared to ask for money. Now, it’s not a, you know, not, it’s not all the time, like, thousands of dollars, but you’re like, ” I’m not doing this for free.” Like, I, I think that was the, the one thing that I think both of us when we first started, like, it’s really cool to get products from stuff.

[00:32:55] Jeff Sieh: Like, when you’re first starting, like, it’s really cool to get drones and, like, all, all the [00:33:00] drones. I still have drones. that’s really fun, but that’s not a business. That’s, like, you getting stuff to fill up your house that your, your wife’s gonna get mad at and you’re gonna have to throw out later. I’m speaking hypothetically.

[00:33:10] Jeff Sieh: Of, of,

[00:33:11] Billy Thorpe: It’s a therapy session

[00:33:12] Jeff Sieh: Right, but you’ve gotta, you’ve gotta, think it through and, and not be scared to ask money, even if it’s for a little bit. Like, you were talking about brokering deals. Like, If you’re gonna broker a deal, you need to be compensated for your time. So, we’re always talking about in our mastermind, I’m al- always pushing them, like, you know, “Ask for more money.

[00:33:29] Jeff Sieh: Ask for more money,” because that’s y- if you don’t ask, then, I mean, the worst they can do is say no, right? Like, you gotta keep asking.

[00:33:35] Billy Thorpe: 100%.

[00:33:36] Billy Thorpe: Yeah

[00:33:36] Jeff Sieh: I wanna talk about the thing that I think you did this year that I think is kind of the most Billy move of all, right? so you built this Whatnot audience of, like, 3,000 buyers.

[00:33:46] Jeff Sieh: Then you moved to Puerto Rico, and that shipping math kinda broke. Like, it was three times the cost. You had no y- United States Post Office contract. And, you know, everybody else would kinda give up at that point. But you went and started [00:34:00] building, like, a local reseller network on the island instead. So walk me through that decision and what that actually looks like.

[00:34:06] Billy Thorpe: Yeah, I mean that wa- yeah, that was basically the decision. ‘Cause I was having a lot of fun live selling on Whatnot. And if you’ve never done it before, you should go to a garage sale this weekend, buy a bunch of junk, get on there and try to sell it. It’s like so much fun. And I was having a great time. I mean, I sold over like 2,000 orders on there, which some orders were multiple products, and I built an audience of over 3,000.

[00:34:27] Billy Thorpe: and it was so fun. And anyway, when I get to, got to Puerto Rico, I immediately did a show and realized like, “Oh my God, the shipping is… the contract does not include Puerto Rico,” even though it’s part of the US or whatever. And, you know, I kinda hung my head for a while and it, you know, once again, like, “God, this c- this is a kick in my pants.”

[00:34:46] Billy Thorpe: But then the product keeps stacking up ’cause I could still do the business here. So I, I would have to solve that problem, and I just started telling people like, “Yeah, I have all this product for sale.” And then a couple people would invite me to like a local market, and so I’m like, [00:35:00] “Oh, that… Okay. Well, the dominant language here is Spanish.”

[00:35:03] Billy Thorpe: Like everyone speaks… They learn Spanish and English, but it’s like predominantly Spanish. And I’m like, “I don’t even know. Whatever. Like, I guess we’ll just figure it out. Like, I’m going. Where’s my translate app?” And so I, I went and did one of these, uh, markets, and then I did another market, and then I did ano- And so anyway, so then I’m like bu- you know, building these relationships locally now to where now people come, they’ll come to my office.

[00:35:29] Billy Thorpe: Had a couple people this week just drop by and go through the stuff and figure out what they want, and then some resellers will come by. And so, a- and then also, I, I’m selling stuff here for like 50 to 75% of retail as to where on Whatnot I was probably getting like 5, 10, 15, maybe 20% of retail depending on how the show would go, uh, and then fees and all that kind of stuff.

[00:35:53] Billy Thorpe: So yeah, I mean, it was just one of those like get uncomfortable and sort of str- you know. And there’s, there’s one of my best buyers, she [00:36:00] didn’t speak a lick of English, I don’t speak a lick of Spanish, and we just use translate apps, and we have a good old time and laugh and, and just I… she makes a bigger pile and I make a better deal.

[00:36:09] Billy Thorpe: So that’s how it works.

[00:36:11] Jeff Sieh: So I, I think there’s gonna be across the country, it’ll be like Thorpe Thrift Stores, like is what’s gonna happen. Like, it’s gonna be, it’s gonna be a chain. it’s

[00:36:17] Jeff Sieh: it’s gonna be you’re the next, you’re the next Sam Walton kind of a thing is what’s gonna happen.

[00:36:21] Billy Thorpe: Yeah, it’s a fun, it’s fun, man. There’s always a way to figure it out. It might not be the way that you want. Like, do I want to go set up on a Saturday and sit for five hours behind a table, and try to speak a language I don’t speak? No. But I do wanna get paid, and I do wanna get rid of all this stuff.

[00:36:36] Billy Thorpe: More importantly, get rid of all the stuff.

[00:36:39] Zac Brown: Now you, you’ve said that the simpler you make it, the more repeat customers you get, and then you lock people into a rate instead of negotiating every deal. So for a service business watching this, let’s say a photographer, designer, consultant, how do you build an offer that people buy over and over without you selling every single time?

[00:36:57] Billy Thorpe: You know, and that’s, uh, I mean, for those industries, [00:37:00] that’d be interesting to, to try to figure out, especially like for a photographer. I was actually thinking about this, like, how could you… How about you prepay for all five of your daughter’s weddings, huh? Let’s do that, you know?

[00:37:10] Jeff Sieh: go

[00:37:12] Billy Thorpe: Maybe some repeat business.

[00:37:13] Billy Thorpe: a- and I’m not really sure, you know, with other companies how… But I often think about the membership model. You know, it’s like I don’t charge, like, my clients are not, I’m not on a retainer, which you could, I guess. That’d be the simplest thing for, like, consultant or photographers. Like, you know, if you’re especially like a food photographer or something and restaurant needs, they’re always adding to their menu or needing new pictures or whatever, or marketing materials, I guess you could think about a retainer.

[00:37:40] Billy Thorpe: You know, I mean, that’d be my best answer, I guess. But I, I don’t really… You know, and it’s kind of an unspoken rule in my industry, or for me anyway, it’s like I say, “Hey, it’s 50 bucks a video,” and they go, “Cool.” And I just never talk about that price again. I just send the invoice and it gets paid. So,

[00:37:56] Billy Thorpe: um-

[00:37:57] Jeff Sieh: I, I would say too, and tell me if I’m wrong [00:38:00] about this, Billy, but I think a lot of entrepreneurs think they have to be so many levels ahead of everybody else before they can give advice and charge for their services. So like f- like for me, um, Like, AI is such a new technology.

[00:38:12] Jeff Sieh: it’s the Wild West. Like, there’s no gurus. Even if they say they’re a guru, it’s not been around enough to be like a super, super, super expert. But I know more than a lot of people, right? So I can sell those services, and you mentioned retainer. I have a couple clients that h- I’m on retainer for that I help them with their AI.

[00:38:28] Jeff Sieh: I look at their products and services, and I help them streamline or give them ideas on how to do stuff, or show them how they can speed up their workflows, and I’m not really selling anything, but they pay me monthly to ask me questions. So, and I’m not a AI guru in n- in no way, but I, I’ve used it in my own stuff to make, you know, push it ahead and move ahead in, in how we do things and streamline everything.

[00:38:51] Jeff Sieh: So I, I think it’s really cool what you’ve done. Like, you haven’t figured out everything, but you figured out the next step for a lot of people that they’re not doing, and you can help them do that [00:39:00] even with your membership and stuff like that. Am I right in thinking that? And I think a lot of entrepreneurs don’t kinda think that way.

[00:39:05] Billy Thorpe: Well, yeah, I mean, I, and I think that’s one of the biggest, hurdles that I jump through every day is like, what do I know? Because, you know, you, ’cause you’re this close to it every day. You’re, you’re doing it, and you just don’t realize it. And then you jump on a podcast and, or a membership group and, you know, I have people in my, in my membership group and, and I’m saying something and they’re like, “Wait a minute.

[00:39:24] Billy Thorpe: Like, you’re just gonna brush over that? Like, that’s a genius idea like we’ve never even considered.” And I’m like, ” I, I just do that every day.” Like, you know? So I think sometimes we have to surround ourselves with other people in different industries to be able to, you know, realize the genius that’s on the inside of us sometimes.

[00:39:43] Billy Thorpe: And I, I say that like, not like I’m a genius, but, I had this happen, speaking of AI, a I met a new guy here in Puerto Rico and he has very successful business. And so we got together and he’s telling me about, his early business about selling, PDFs and e-books and things like this. And [00:40:00] so I, and I said, “Yeah, man, I’ve thought about that, but I don’t know how to write anything.

[00:40:03] Billy Thorpe: I’m, I’m a big dumb,” and, you know, whatever. I can barely read, like, more or less write a book. And then he’s like, “Well, tell me a little bit about your business.” So I’m telling him, just like we’re talking here, I’m telling him all this stuff. He goes, “Dude, you’re sitting on like a, a half a million dollar e- you know, e-book idea.

[00:40:18] Billy Thorpe: Like, what are you doing? Here’s Claude Cowork. Use Claude Cowork. Do this, this, this, and that.” So, I mean, within three days I’d used AI from his advice sitting down for a cup of coffee to build out a full offer, a full playbook and some other products and some email, like, grabbers or whatever you call, I don’t even know what you, see I don’t even know what you call them, but they’re working.

[00:40:39] Billy Thorpe: They’re on my website right now working. And so, you know, I, and then I built another AI, like an- another Chrome plugin to extract data from other, you know, people’s storefronts or whatever. I won’t talk too much about that. I’ll get beat up but, you know, it’s like, I don’t know. Anyway, so it was me being around this person who just said, “Yeah, dude, this is a good i- these are good [00:41:00] things that other people need to know.”

[00:41:02] Billy Thorpe: And here I am thinking like, well, I’m only one or two steps ahead, so I’m not, that’s not valuable information. And then this guy who’s like, “No, dude.” And so I already made 500 bucks off that e-book. Took me three days to get it from start to finish and, you know, and all I did was took content, like, I took one of our podcast episodes, took the transcript, threw it into a folder.

[00:41:23] Billy Thorpe: I did that on like five different episodes where I was the guest off my own podcast, threw it in there, and was like, “Let’s work on a playbook.” And it’s like, bloop, spits one out. And I mean, it’s everything I’ve ever done in my business in that playbook, and it’s insane.

[00:41:37] Jeff Sieh: Yeah. Very, very cool. really quick, when you, you talked about that, one of the things with AI is doing things that I’ve always wanted to do but I’ve never been able to, or I’ve not had enough time, and now it’s automating stuff, and that leads right into what we have now as a offer.

[00:41:51] Jeff Sieh: It’s free. It’s totally free. You can go to jeffsieh.com/cheatsheet, and about, oh, I don’t know, an hour or two hours after a show is done, it actually takes it, makes [00:42:00] it a cheat sheet. It gives you all the takeaways, all the links, everything, the action plan, and it does it automatically, and you can get it for free at jeffsieh.com/cheatsheet.

[00:42:08] Jeff Sieh: So go check it out. Kick the tires. Tell me what you think about it, ’cause, I thought it was pretty cool. It’s always something… Amy Porterfield used to do this all the time with her podcast. She’d have, like, a download every week, and she’d have her team put it together. Well, now I have an AI team that can do it, so I’ve been really stoked about that.

[00:42:21] Jeff Sieh: So go check it out. You have a question there, Zac. What’s, what’s your question?

[00:42:27] Zac Brown: Yeah, Billy, you mentioned in January that you charge extra to put a video on YouTube. What else is an upsell that you think creators are just giving away for free?

[00:42:36] Billy Thorpe: Oh man, so much. Every platform you post on could be an upsell. the, the video itself, like if the company wants to use it as like an ad or they wanna use it in their own promotion, like that’s an upsell. I mean, I think it’s a pretty common one, but a lot of content, a lot of Amazon influencers don’t think that way.

[00:42:51] Billy Thorpe: and I went back and sold videos that I made a year ago. A company will reach out and go, “Hey, we, we wanna use this video.” And I go, “Cool, here’s the fee.” And they pay me another [00:43:00] fat fee, and then I give them the file, and then, you know, we move on from there. so I think, I think like any of that stuff, like any, any type of content or UGC stuff or, you know, vertical or horizontal, like those are all upsells.

[00:43:12] Billy Thorpe: Like vertical, horizontal, like that’s a different– same v- I mean, I’ve charged two fees for two different formats and it just, I just chop it up or create it at the same time. It’s like, but that’s two fees. You know, they don’t know. They don’t know if I spent two hours chopping that up or one second. Who cares?

[00:43:28] Billy Thorpe: and then I think like going in the live selling space, like live selling for other people, live selling for other brands, you know, anything that you can do as a talent to get on camera and make content is huge. It’s like, dude, you could just go to your local businesses and go, “Hey, I just wanna make your social media content about pizza.

[00:43:49] Jeff Sieh: Right.

[00:43:50] Billy Thorpe: And here, here’s 12 ideas. Let’s try a couple, see how they do, and if they work, you pay me 1,500 bucks a month and I’ll come in, eat free pizza, drink free beer, and make videos.”

[00:43:59] Jeff Sieh: [00:44:00] That’s too dangerous. I couldn’t do that. That would, that would be dangerous for me. But, by the way, speaking of something that’s not dangerous, remember, Billy’s gonna be at, Creator Camp. Uh, this show is als- also sponsored by our friends, over on Ecamm, and you can find out more about them, but we have a quick word from our sponsor That’s right. Thank you to our friends over at Ecamm. You can find out more about them, and camp at ecamm.com/camp. Thank you guys so much for sponsoring the show each and every week. All right, so we’re gonna go into our next and final section. So Billy, I wanna know straight up, right now, this month, what are people telling you that is a waste of time or beneath you and you’re like, “Ah, I got an idea”?

[00:44:58] Billy Thorpe: Oh man, I’ve thought about [00:45:00] this question. You know what? I don’t think there’s anything that they would say that I’m doing is dumb. They’d probably say what I’m not doing is dumb. so right now in my space in particular, leveraging the Amazon Influencer program, the big move that all these top platform earners are doing is product research and investing into products.

[00:45:19] Billy Thorpe: And I just find it to be something that I, I’m not even f- because I have a proximity problem, like Amazon won’t ship a lot of stuff here, and so therefore I just kinda know my limitations and I’m okay with that. Even though I have a little bit of FOMO, even though I think I could crush this strategy, people will think I’m absolutely nuts for not doing, a ton of product research and spending a bunch of money in hopes of a product video getting on a carousel.

[00:45:46] Billy Thorpe: So that’s probably what they think I’m crazy for not doing,

[00:45:49] Jeff Sieh: Well crazy like a fox. Yeah.

[00:45:52] Billy Thorpe: ‘ Cause what I’m doing is we’ll let them do all the product research, and then I’m leveraging my 4,800 pieces of content to go get a brand deal with [00:46:00] the same company that they’re paying for the product. I’m gonna get paid to do the video and the banger product.

[00:46:06] Billy Thorpe: see you on the carousel.

[00:46:07] Jeff Sieh: I think too, people don’t understand that you’re only working 25 hours most weeks on this. Like, you have, are very, like, I know, like, you get up and you bang stuff out, and then you got the rest of your day free, which, like, man, so many people would love that. They would, they would gladly work those hours that you’re doing and making the money you, you do.

[00:46:24] Jeff Sieh: So don’t, discount that part of the equation too. That is very, very cool

[00:46:29] Billy Thorpe: That’s true, yeah. Yeah, and, and, and I think it’s a huge lesson for all of us is like in business, because in business there’s no like, “Oh man, I’m… There’s enough.” Like, if you, if you don’t say there’s enough, there’s never enough. And, and no matter what you do, you’ll always watch someone online who says what you’re doing is not enough and you should be doing more, more, more, more, more, and it’s just that, you know, mentality that we’ve, especially in the States, we’ve just like grown up with, of like just grind, grind, grind, hustle, hustle, hustle.

[00:46:54] Billy Thorpe: And you know, my wife and I looked at each other the other day, we’re like, “We live in a tropical paradise that most [00:47:00] people want to vacation in.” So we live in other people’s vacation spots, we’re debt-free, like we have cash flow, so after all our bills are paid, we’re still making money. Like, what are we thinking about so much when it comes to money?

[00:47:13] Billy Thorpe: Like, this is stupid. Like, most people would, would kill their mom to live like this. Like, what are we doing, you know? Some people have. I’ve seen the documentary. but you know, it’s like… So anyway, I think there’s a lot of times like, man, just to pause and just be grateful for the moment you’re in and the season you’re in, and it always hasn’t been this way, and I’m not flexing saying like, “Oh, whatever.”

[00:47:34] Billy Thorpe: I mean, trust me, I still gotta work. Like, just c- yeah, I… Just ’cause I have a yard in paradise doesn’t mean I can pay someone to mow it, okay? So I’m here,

[00:47:42] Billy Thorpe: I’m working.

[00:47:43] Jeff Sieh: Gotcha

[00:47:43] Billy Thorpe: Okay? So don’t, don’t hear what I’m not saying, but it’s like at the same time, just like be grateful for what you do have and the opportunity that you have.

[00:47:53] Billy Thorpe: And I’m, I have to be reminded of that every day, especially when you see people saying they’re making [00:48:00] 4 or 5X what I make, 10X at times. You’re like,

[00:48:03] Jeff Sieh: But a lot of those people are miserable, my friend. A lot of them are miserable and have horrible home life. So yeah, it’s–

[00:48:09] Jeff Sieh: you always have to dig a little deeper. But yeah, I, that’s why, that’s why I love having you on the show, man, because you, like, you tell it how it is. You work really, really hard, but you also stop and you know what you want, and you’re getting what you want.

[00:48:20] Jeff Sieh: So I think that’s really, really cool

[00:48:21] Billy Thorpe: You know what I mean? It’s a lot of fun. It’s all about the journey. There’s no destination. I don’t care who tells you that. They’re lying.

[00:48:29] Zac Brown: Billy, I know we just met, but I wanna push back on something that you said that hits a little close to home for me. You said that if somebody does not do this full time, they will probably not succeed, that a 5:00 to 9:00, not 9:00 to 5:00, a 5:00 to 9:00 will not cut it. And I know a big chunk of the people that are watching right now are part-time with a day job.

[00:48:47] Zac Brown: I want you to make the case against yourself. Who actually pulls it off part-time, and what do they do differently?

[00:48:54] Billy Thorpe: Okay, this is not hard. I don’t know why I s- I talk too much if I said that. Like, that’s dumb. I shouldn’t have said that. ’cause [00:49:00] I know a lot of people who make good money doing this. Like, I have some people in my community who are working, you know, full-time jobs actually, and they’re doing this at a part-time level, and they’re making a salary.

[00:49:10] Billy Thorpe: You know, they’re making probably, like, an average yearly salary from it. so yeah, I would probably take that back actually and strike that from the record of bad advice, or bad, bad mentality ’cause, I definitely… I mean, I’m doing it too now. Now that I’ve built this system, I- it’s… That’s what I think is the most important part of, of any of this stuff is, like, you have to build the system, even if it’s…

[00:49:33] Billy Thorpe: even if you have to do 5, 10, $15 videos in the beginning. I’ve since then, like, 10X’d my revenue as far as brand deals go, but I’m still doing the same amount of work in less time because I’ve really just dialed in the system to be able to, you know, do that. And so I think if people are working a full-time job or they’re working part-time, they’re trying to do this part-time, as long as you have the right system and you can be disciplined, and that’s for any business, [00:50:00] that’s not just for this, but it’s like you just have to have the system and show up for yourself.

[00:50:04] Billy Thorpe: And the people who just keep showing up and showing up and showing up, I mean, I’m, I’m the dumb guy who’s just like, “I ain’t quitting entrepreneurship. I will just… I’ll be homeless before I do that.” I’m like… And so anyway, I just keep showing up and it keeps

[00:50:18] Jeff Sieh: I can’t remember, uh, like, who said it. I think, you know, success, you know, half of success is just showing up, and I think that consistency, so many people don’t do it. I see so many people stop before the finish line. They like, they’re so close and they just like, “I’m done.” And I’m like, “Oh, you’re so close.

[00:50:32] Jeff Sieh: Don’t stop.” So, hang in there. If you’re struggling, you know, it can get better. I mean, I, I look at my friend Dustin Stout, who’s in the audience, who’s had this succ- huge success with Magai. He did a lot of things before he hit it with Magai, but he was consistent, he worked really hard, and it’s great to see the people who, don’t quit before the finish line.

[00:50:51] Jeff Sieh: And I, I see Dustin s- still killing it out there, so, kudos to both Billy and Dustin, and so many other people who are in the chat room. But, Billy, I wanna kinda [00:51:00] w- end with this question, because we’ve kind of talked about AI, and you said something about this in A- in, in January. You told us about an Amazon influencer whose early videos were them holding the product and showing how it worked, and whose newest videos were an A- AI avatar reading the product description off the listing.

[00:51:18] Jeff Sieh: And your line was, “I know you’re trying to be more efficient, but you actually just ruined your brand, and congratulations.” That was like, that was seven months ago. So has it gotten better or worse with this, you know, this AI avatar? I mean, we’re, we’re all using AI hopefully to help us move forward and d- and do some things we were not able to do before, like I mentioned the Cheat Sheet Club before.

[00:51:40] Jeff Sieh: what are your thoughts? Is, is it getting better or worse? Has the line moved on you at all? What are your thoughts on that?

[00:51:44] Billy Thorpe: I, I definitely think the line of, like, AI in general has moved on me. At, at first I was real like, “Man, I don’t wanna… You know, I, I don’t like this,” because, and this is gonna sound mean, but it was like a bunch of wannabes creating stuff out [00:52:00] of things they haven’t worked for or earned, and so that was what was infuriating to me, was like, okay, you’re just using this smart software to basically rip off elements of other people’s work and put it together.

[00:52:13] Billy Thorpe: It’s like you don’t even understand the elementary thing of it. And so I was, like, pretty, like I didn’t really say that too much publicly, but I was pretty much, like, anti-AI for those apparent reasons. It was just like, well, the easy button, you know? It’s, like, irritating me ’cause I’m like, you know, ’cause we worked hard, so it’s like…

[00:52:29] Billy Thorpe: And then when I saw AI kind of taking aim at something I’m doing, I’m like, now I’m even more irritated. Like, what are you doing, robot? Step back before I, you know, Terminator you. And so, I, like, had that, but then when I realized, like especially with, like, Claude Cowork, I’m like, wait a minute, I can take my work and, and, like, you know, turn on the gas and really cook with some oil here.

[00:52:51] Billy Thorpe: I’m like, okay, now this is interesting. Like, so I… You know, my perspective is always changing. I… You know, I think AI in video and especially in product video is still a bad [00:53:00] call. I think even, like, this video that I have, like, this quality and switching cameras and, you know, looking like I’m in a studio, I, I think maybe even that is not good right now because there’s so much polished, perfect, flawless, you know, content going out there, um, and I think people are like, “Wait, I want to know this person’s real.”

[00:53:19] Billy Thorpe: So I’m like,

[00:53:21] Billy Thorpe: just snot in my nose, not fixing my hair. Like, I’m real, trust me. ‘Cause, you know, I think we’re moving from that attention, and everybody says it. I mean, I’m not the, the marketing guru here by any means, but you hear all these Hormozis and, and Vaynerchuks and all these guys who are kind of at, at huge scales talking like, “Well, it’s no longer about the attention.

[00:53:42] Billy Thorpe: It’s now about the trust,” and can a person turn your video on and trust that you’re real and trust that you’re sharing a real experience about the product or service that you’re offering? And also I’ve like, I mean, immediately when I saw an AI video holding up a product and talking about it, I just thought, “Well, this is it.

[00:53:59] Billy Thorpe: I’m [00:54:00] cooked.” And so I immediately reached out to all these companies and go, ” Hey, I see the technology now is pretty much not needing me. Like, am I still needed?” You know, like, “What’s the future?” And they’re like, “No, we don’t want AI. We want real people because we realize that no one’s gonna believe that.”

[00:54:17] Billy Thorpe: You know, so I’m like, “Okay, this is good news for me.” but if I’m like a copywriter, a coder, I mean, I don’t know, man, I feel so bad. But also it’s just different markets, like you said. Like you are helping people with AI, that’s an opportunity. So I don’t think everyone who codes or everyone who does copywriting is out.

[00:54:34] Billy Thorpe: I think they just have to pivot and, you know, make a different, a different approach, a different offer, and think outside the box.

[00:54:42] Jeff Sieh: Totally agree. I always say that like, you know, there used to be blacksmiths on every corner, right? We still have blacksmiths, we just don’t have that many anymore because things have changed, technology has changed, and I think the same thing with AI. And so I think people c- are

[00:54:55] Billy Thorpe: Sh- that’s good. That’s good. I’m gonna steal

[00:54:57] Jeff Sieh: Yeah, you steal

[00:54:58] Jeff Sieh: it all the time.

[00:54:58] Billy Thorpe: credit you when I remember.

[00:54:59] Jeff Sieh: [00:55:00] right. That’s fine. Anyway, this has been great. Billy, once again, you have brought the goods, and I always enjoy our chats together. Looking forward to seeing you at Creator Camp with Ecamm. but where can people find out more about Billy? And, and Dustin actually asked the question, he goes, “I need to ask this question before I forget.

[00:55:17] Jeff Sieh: Where do we hire you to do a video?”

[00:55:20] Billy Thorpe: Oh, perfect. So if you, anybody can reach out to me at just billythorpe.live.

[00:55:27] Jeff Sieh: BillyThorpe.live, everybody. That’s where you can… You got his membership there, all sorts of things. If you have any questions, Billy is more than happy to answer those. He is very available and accessible. He’s a great guy. just reach out to him if you have any questions. And another great guy is the, amazing Zac Brown.

[00:55:41] Jeff Sieh: Zac, where can people find out more about the amazing Zac Brown?

[00:55:45] Zac Brown: Or you can follow me on Zac Brown Creative on all the socials. There you’ll find links to my podcast, The Zac Brown Show, and my new book, An Accidental Education: What I’ve Learned So Far. If you want to connect, DM me. Happy to answer any questions you may have

[00:55:59] Jeff Sieh: Zac’s book’s [00:56:00] amazing. Make sure you guys go check that out. Thank you guys so much for watching. Thank you much for Ecamm for sponsoring this. As always, you can go to get the cheat sheet, for all the ones in the past, but also,Billy’s gonna be coming up here this afternoon as soon as everything fires off after we upload it.

[00:56:14] Jeff Sieh: But go check that out at jeffsieh.com/cheatsheet. Thank you so much everybody for watching all your great comments because here at Creator News Live, we have Thank you guys so much for watching and your comments. We’ll see you guys next time. Bye everybody.

SHOW TRANSCRIPT

This transcript is automatically generated by Descript.  Any errors or omissions are unintentional.

[00:00:00] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: I don’t owe anybody any part of that process. Like, I own and, and now understand, like, every step, from the writing to the s- to the, to the ISBN, to the copyright page, to the editing process, you know, I, I owned every aspect of it and kind of learned everything along the way.

[00:00:18] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: And, like, what came out of it is, like, this baby that I created that is all mine. And yeah, I would, I would absolutely do it that way again. And I think, like, we’re so lucky to live in a time where that’s kind of the obvious option, you know, where you’re not having to, you know, write the book and then, you know, give it to somebody else for approval or disapproval, or whether or not it’s worthy of their investment or…

[00:00:39] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: You know, you can just kind of put it out into the world and, like, trust the universe and your community to, to decide those things for you.

[00:00:52] Jeff Sieh: Hello, folks. Welcome to Creator News Live. I’m Jeff Sieh, and you’re not

[00:00:56] Zac Brown: And I’m Zac Brown, and this is the show that keeps you up to date on the creator economy and [00:01:00] so much more

[00:01:00] Jeff Sieh: You ever been telling yourself for years, that you are going to write that book, maybe build a course, ship the thing, and it’s still sitting in a folder? Do you have real expertise but keep waiting maybe for somebody more qualified to come along and validate it? Maybe you’ve wondered how anyone pays for a project like this before it makes a single dollar.

[00:01:19] Jeff Sieh: If that sounds like you, you are in the right place

[00:01:23] Zac Brown: Our guest today is Lisa DiNoto Glassner, the founder of The Castle Run and a Harvard-educated former corporate attorney who left big law behind to build a business around what she actually loves. Her first book comes out next week, 17 chapters and about 250 pages, whew, published under her own company, funded by partners she brought in herself with a whole ecosystem built behind it.

[00:01:44] Zac Brown: Today, she is showing us how a real book actually gets written, paid for, published, and launched

[00:01:49] Jeff Sieh: So sit back, clear your schedule, clear your mind to get ready for this week’s episode of Creator News Live [00:02:00] There you go, folks. Lisa, I think this is the first time you’ve been on since we’ve been doing custom songs for people, so now you, now you’ve, you’ve experienced it. So there you go

[00:02:24] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: I love it, and the animation and everything. It was

[00:02:26] Jeff Sieh: Yeah, appreciate it. So this is gonna be fun. Um, we’ve had Lisa on before. she’s amazing entrepreneur, done all sorts of things, but today we’re talking about her new book, which comes out next week, and I wanna make sure at the top of the show that I tell you guys where you can find it.

[00:02:40] Jeff Sieh: So if you go to thecastlerun.com/book, that’s where you can sign up to get all that information about when it launches, where to pick it up, all the things. So thecastlerun.com/book. And also, I wanna big a shout-out to our sponsors of the show, amazing folks over at Ecamm. You can find out more about them at ecamm.com/jeff.[00:03:00]

[00:03:00] Jeff Sieh: Use the code JEFF15 to save 15% on your first purchase. And they also have the amazing camp coming up. Creator Camp is coming up J- September 28th through 30th. I will be there speaking with a lot of other cool people like Pat Flynn, Michael Hyatt, the Ecamm team, so many people. you can find out more about that at ecamm.com/camp.

[00:03:18] Jeff Sieh: I would love, love, love to see you there. All right, we are gonna just jump right into this because this is gonna be, so much fun. Once again, folks, ask your questions wherever you are watching f- from, and it’s gonna be a rough one. I, I can see Lou in the comments. I’m gonna try to, like, ignore his little sassy comments, but we will, we’ll pull ’em up if they, if they, they’re appropriateso, Lisa, this is something I remember you talking about at Momentum. So you were a Harvard-trained, mergers and acquisitions attorney during enormous deals, and you were, by your own description in the book, pretty miserable. Like, it wasn’t a fun time for you, and your best friend told you to put an actual date on the calendar for getting out, like [00:04:00] quitting your job, doing something different.

[00:04:01] Jeff Sieh: So why did that one piece of advice work when you were just, you know, when you’re thinking, “I just want out of this thing,” when that didn’t work, that piece of advice really hit home for you?

[00:04:10] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: So, I mean, I think you can want out of something or want change in general, like sort of vaguely without limit forever and never act on it because there’s no sort of point B that you’re moving towards. And I think that the reason that that piece of advice, which I repeat so often when I’m telling the story, ’cause it’s such a central like sort of pivotal moment for me, was because it gave me…

[00:04:36] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: And, and she said, she said, “I don’t care if it’s two weeks from now or two years from now, but whatever it is, like put the date on the calendar.” And, and this was the key to it, the, the rest of that sentence, which was, “And spend the intervening time figuring out, you know, sort of what needs, what you need to wrap your head around,in order to get ready for that moment.”

[00:04:53] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: And that wasn’t just a, a financial thing. It wasn’t really a financial thing at all. We were fine. It was more of just wrapping [00:05:00] my mind sort of psychologically around that change because, you know, as much as I was miserable, and I think this goes, you know, this, this through line goes for, for all of us, you know, not, not just me, but as, as much as I was miserable in that role, it was an enormous part of sort of my identity.

[00:05:16] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: And as much as I might not want to admit it, an enormous part of probably my self-worth at that point because I had worked so long to develop this like level of expertise and, and the value that I sort of contributed to the world, if that’s what you want to call it, as an M&A attorney, was, was sort of took, it took that form.

[00:05:33] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: And so, you know, the date I ended up putting on the calendar was about six months out from that time. It was that August. And so once that date was on the calendar, I could kind of start to wrap my head around, you know, what that identity shift meant in getting to that, you know, getting to that next point.

[00:05:49] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: And I think that was what it was. I think like there are certain aspects of creating change that you can’t sort of start to implement until you have an endpoint that you’re working toward, and [00:06:00] that kind of gives you a framework to start to figure out the rest of it.

[00:06:03] Jeff Sieh: Hmm. I love that part about, yeah, your id- so many of us, our job is so much of our identity, and I, I can understand why that was a huge hurdle. I think we all have had jobs where they’ve either s- you’ve had to change jobs or you’ve been fired or you’ve had to leave, and that initial hit is like, “Okay, who am I?”

[00:06:22] Jeff Sieh: Right? Like, you have that question in your head. Like,

[00:06:24] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:25] Jeff Sieh: time doing this, and then I have to leave. I remember, s- the stuff I’ve had to do with, employers or employees before, I’m like, “Ugh.” It really does take a, a hit. And so, one, I think it was really interesting in that book, you had your…

[00:06:38] Jeff Sieh: You had a, kind of a, those friends that would help you on and ask these questions, like this lady who said like, “Okay, put it on the calendar. Like, put it on the calendar so you have a, a definite date.” So I thought that was a really great piece of advice

[00:06:48] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: Yeah. I mean, I, I think so much of it is identity and, you know, I’ve talked before about things like, you know, imposter syndrome and, and stuff like that, and it all kinda gets wrapped up together and sort of where you get your self-worth from. And, you know, it’s a [00:07:00] conversation for another day, but I think so much of the challenge of becoming sort of an entrepreneur or solopreneur, these things that we all try to do, I think so much of the, the challenge of that is kind of stepping away from a world where you have that, like, externally defined validation every day, and sort of metrics to compare yourself against and, like, you know, metrics for self-growth.

[00:07:20] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: And, and I think stepping into a role where that all suddenly becomes self-defined is a lot of the challenge that we don’t expect coming into entrepreneurship, that a lot of us end up facing.

[00:07:30] Zac Brown: I think the amazing thing, Lise, is that, you know, at your core, you are a writer. If anybody were to pay attention to all the ventures that you’ve done from your blog, your candles, your photos, the, the string that goes through is story and writing. But there’s a, a leap between I can do this thing to putting out a book.

[00:07:49] Zac Brown: You know, you had no publishing background. You had no agent, no deal, nobody telling you that, you know, you were allowed to do this. So what actually convinced you that you were [00:08:00] the person that should write the definitive guide in your space?

[00:08:04] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: So I think it’s wild that this didn’t already exist. Like, the fact that this run- like, this is a huge… Like, there’s so many books on Disney and Disney Cruise Line and, like, you know, all, all of the things. And the fact that, like, this incredibly active, popular, massive space didn’t have a guidebook is wild to me.

[00:08:25] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: You know, all of that being said, you know, I- you can take the, like the girl out of corporate law, but you can’t take the corporate law out of the girl, and I’m still that same, like, hyper-organized type A planner. And, and before every race I would kind of, you know, dissect the information that Disney kind of put together in its, its, you know, its way, which c- tends to be very difficult to navigate, and digest that, and, and for myself.

[00:08:50] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: And then over the years I started sharing that very same thing on my blog and on my Instagram, and it became a sort of hub for that kind of information with the through line of a lot of sort of [00:09:00] heart and, you know, all the other… You know, just the way that I tend to present things. And so, you know, I kind of go- I was realizing over the years that so much of what I was putting out there was evergreen.

[00:09:10] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: Like, a lot of it is sort of race weekend to race weekend, and things that change, and the little detailed policies and things like that, but so much of it is evergreen. And so much of it belonged in, like, between two covers of a physical book that you could kind of hold it all in your hands at one time and feel like, you know, you had it all under control.

[00:09:27] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: And I think as the runDisney community has continued to grow and bring in so many people to this world of running, like Distance running is becoming so, so popular right now, and the runDisney races are bringing in, you know, people who have never run a race before in their lives. And the whole process, you know, a Disney trip itself is very complicated, but then you layer in, like, all of the details of, you know, of, of a run, of a race.

[00:09:51] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: And, and I think there’s a lot of people out there who wish they could be doing it, who just feel intimidated by the logistics of it all on top of like, you know, the [00:10:00] idea of doing the run. Um, and you know, the ability to put everything between two covers and say, like, “I got you,” like, “If you’ve got this book, I got you,” just was, was a really incredible thing to be able to, to give to the world.

[00:10:12] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: And like I said, I can’t believe it didn’t exist, but it probably makes a heck of a lot of sense that I was the one who ended up writing it.

[00:10:18] Jeff Sieh: So it’s, it, it’s– So I am not a runner. Like, the only time I run is when I hear somebody yell, “Fire,” or, “Free food,” or, “The free food’s on fire.” Those are the only times I run, like, those are it. But I thought this book was fascinating because– And I read the whole entire thing, like, I always do that for pe- the guests on my show.

[00:10:35] Jeff Sieh: and I was like, “Oh, a run- a running book, okay.” But I’ve heard you guys talk about it, and I, like, I, I knew enough about it that it was really fascinating how you broke it down. And even for a non-runner, like, learning stuff like, “Oh, okay, I didn’t know they did that,” and, you know, the balloon ladies, and all the stuff that’s part of the culture that you guys have with runDisney, I thought was fascinating.

[00:10:53] Jeff Sieh: And plus, the first and, you know, even the last chapter, I was not expecting a running book to make me [00:11:00] cry, Lisa, and I, I was just– I was going, “Curses, Lisa Glasner,” you know? But, it was a really, really well-written book. I’m not just blowing smoke. But you have done this thing 100 times. Like, you, you’ve done the races, like, I think it was over 100 races that you have done before you even wrote a word.

[00:11:15] Jeff Sieh: So how much does being qualified to write a book is credentials, and how much of it is just having more reps than anybody else, like, in the room, right? Like, so I, I think we all are sort like, “Oh, I, I– They’ve already write- written this book.” Or like you said, there hadn’t been really one on runDisney, but a lot of people have that barrier like, “Oh, somebody else kind of wrote something similar.

[00:11:35] Jeff Sieh: No one’s gonna listen to me.” Like, what do you tell people like that who come to you like, “Lisa, I’m so, I’m so– It’s so good that you wrote a book. I have– I wanna do it, but I, I keep hitting this wall.” What do you tell those type of people?

[00:11:46] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: I mean, I think there’s kind of two questions buried in there. The, the first one is, like, I don’t even know what credentials means anymore, honestly. Like, like what does it… Like, what is… Like, I don’t even know, I don’t even know what you mean by credentials. Like, that’s how, like, amorphous [00:12:00] that term has, has become.

[00:12:01] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: Because, you know, we all kind of exist in our niches or our, you know, our worlds and our communities, and we’re all just kind of, like, figuring it out along the way. And, you know, it’s, it’s funny, I kind of cringe, like, ’cause the lead-in to every one of these interviews is, like, the Harvard Law attorney who left to…

[00:12:15] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: And, and it is my story. Like, I get it. Like, I understand, but it’s, like, so Like, that nobody, nobody who’s listening to anything that I have to say, you know, as far as I know right now, like, could care less. so, like, I don’t even…

[00:12:29] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: Like, what does credentials even mean at this point other than, you know, my credentials are that I’ve done it 100 times, you know? Like, that’s, that is what it is. And, and, you know, and I was very lucky to be working in a space where, like, the book didn’t exist. But all of that being said, even if you’re in a space that has 100 books already, your version of that story is gonna be different from those other 100 versions of the story.

[00:12:55] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: And, like, you’re gonna be coming at it from your own, you know, from your own [00:13:00] personal sort of framework, and somebody out there is gonna identify with that who didn’t identify with the first 100. So I think as long… If, if all you’re planning to do is, like, regurgitate a logistical guide, then, like, maybe you do need to think about whether or not there’s already 100 books in this space.

[00:13:17] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: But if you’re planning to come at it from a really honest place where you’re willing to kind of tell your own story in the context of the thing that you’re explaining, then there’s gonna be value there, no matter how much already exists in your space.

[00:13:29] Jeff Sieh: Yeah. so you, we kind of joked about the whole, you tell the story over and, like I was, I w- I was a Harvard attorney, yada, yada, yada. But people like Michelle say things like, “Lisa gives me hope that I can escape corporate life.” Like, so,

[00:13:43] Zac Brown: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:44] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: And that’s the value, right? Like, that’s the value of it. Like, that’s why I’ll always tell the beginning of the story and, like, I know, you know, we can talk about chapter one, you know, in, in, in, in that framework if you want to. But, like, to me, like, I don’t tell that story so that you can [00:14:00] be, like, wowed by my credentials.

[00:14:02] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: I tell that story because, like, I was that girl who, like, lived in what we jokingly referred to as a culture of misery. Like, it was a culture of misery, and you kind of were just, like, signed on to this club of, like, being miserable with everyone else because that was your people, You know, it’s funny because when I look back, like, I think getting out was really, really ballsy, but at the same time, Like, I wonder how it… I, but I also wonder, like, how it took me so long, you know? Now it seems like it was an easy answer to get out, but, like, I used to be that person who felt trapped, and I’ll always tell, like, that beginning of my story because I think so many of the people who connect with me connect because they’re still in that place, like, in that part of the j- the journey of, of feeling trapped.

[00:14:44] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: And, Life is too short to, like, just be signed on to something that everybody jokingly refers to as a culture of misery. Like, you don’t owe your misery to anybody. You really don’t. no community demands that of you deserves your place in it.

[00:14:58] Jeff Sieh: That’s very well said

[00:14:59] Zac Brown: So as [00:15:00] long as we’re here, let’s, let’s kind of look at this chapter one. Like, your book is not a neutral how-to. You know, you put your father, your grief, the worst season of your life in chapter one of a running book. And you tell the reader that they can skip it, which I think is just delightful. What made you leave that in when the cautious version of that book would probably edit that out?

[00:15:22] Zac Brown: And what did that decision do to make it all connect?

[00:15:25] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: So, a- and, you know, you laugh and I laugh too. Like, I literally do say, like, if this isn’t what you’re here for, like, feel free to skip ahead to the logistical guide because, you know, nobody’s needs to read my story if they don’t want to. But, you know, like you said, so much of the through line of everything that I do is storytelling.

[00:15:42] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: and to me, like and it also goes right back to my answer to the last question. Like, this just happened to be the first book in the space, and it had value just in being that. But also, like, I come at it with, from my own framework and, and I think so many of us who come to distance running, and so many of us who come to Disney, and then there’s this, like, wild nexus [00:16:00] in runDisney that, like, it’s, we kind of like we’re going through it, and that’s kind of why we need that thing.

[00:16:05] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: Like, a lot of people, a lot of adults who come to Disney, like, at that time in their life kind of need a very heavy dose of magic, and there’s usually a reason for that. And a lot of the people who come as adults to distance running are coming to distance running because they’re kind of going through something, and the running is, just becomes that sort of therapy to get through it.

[00:16:27] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: And like I said, like, there’s this nexus in runDisney that’s sort of like that squared, and I think that’s a part of why the community is what it is. but you know, I, I told the story in part because, like, for me, I couldn’t tell the rest of the book until I had told that story, ’cause that’s just the honest version of that for me.

[00:16:44] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: But also I tell the story because, you know, if you choose to read it, my hope is that you come out of it kind of feeling like you’ve got a soul sister out there, and you’re not the only person kind of dealing with, you know, that, that stage of life or that grief or, [00:17:00] like, whatever it is that’s brought you to this, to this place, whether it’s running or Disney or, or whatever.

[00:17:05] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: You know, some people are just in it for the fun and the lightheartedness and all the things, and that’s, that’s wonderful. Like, more power to them. But I think, you know, and my hope is that people kind of leave chapter one feeling a little bit seen in what they’re going through.

[00:17:17] Jeff Sieh: Yeah. It’s a, it was, it’s a great way to kick off, the book. I thought it was re- I mean, it, it drew you in and, anyway, stayed for the whole thing. So it was really great. I wanna know, and and Lisa, I mean, Lauren from Lulu is here. She goes, ” Delighted to tune in just in time to hear Lisa give the most perfect answer.”

[00:17:33] Jeff Sieh: so one of the questions I have, because, you know, Lulu I know helped you with a little bit of this, but where was the specific moment where the book went from someday to I’m actually doing this? Do you

[00:17:46] Jeff Sieh: remember

[00:17:46] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: So the book kind of existed in the back of my mind for a really long time. the last chapter of the book has existed in my mind for a very, very long time, and will one day be its own book. but I, I think, like, it was kind of on my to-do list for a little while, [00:18:00] and one day, I think it was, like, early this spring, I was just like, “You know what?

[00:18:03] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: Like, the time’s not gonna find me. I just need to find the time to make this the thing.” And so I literally, and this will probably answer some of your other, other questions or, like, leads into it, I literally brain dumped what is effectively the table of contents. Like, a more detailed version of the table of contents.

[00:18:18] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: I just, like, sat down in an afternoon and was like, “All right, so what, w- what’s everything that I kind of would need to cover in this, in this book?” And I kind of built that framework, in an afternoon, and the book was just sort of built from there. And obviously, you know, that evolved and things shifted and, like, a little, you know, thing, a few things kind of grew along the way, a few things kind of fell by the wayside as I started to see the whole thing take shape.

[00:18:42] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: but yeah, I think, like, the, the book was sort of like a vague possibility in my head for a while, and then one day I kind of brain dumped the table of contents, or effectively what became… Like, the outline, the outline of the book. and from there it became a more tangible, like, doable segmented project.[00:19:00]

[00:19:00] Jeff Sieh: Very cool

[00:19:00] Zac Brown: I think it’s fun because you, you had it all, you laid it out. You’re like, “Okay, this is the journey.” You knew your why on the upfront, and then you’re like, “Okay, here’s the path. This is what we need to cover.” And it kind of gave you an approach to how to, you know, go from there

[00:19:12] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: Yeah, it was literally like, all right, I wanna sort of tell my s- I did wanna tell my story. Like, I wanted to talk about the history of the races. I wanted to talk about, like, how to choose your race, how to register, like, training, fueling, you know, the, the, the costuming, you know, the, the r- the race week, race morning, like, like, post finish line, like, and then the sort of through way at the end.

[00:19:33] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: So I kind of built that framework out and, you know, not to jump ahead, but, like, that w- that also sort of became, that became my day-to-day. ‘Cause I would wake up in the morning and be like… Not wake up in the morning, ’cause obviously I had a million other things to do, but that’s kind of what made this doable.

[00:19:46] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: Like, I’ve got all this other stuff going on, but it’s like, okay, like, kind of given where my head is today, and, like, what I’m thinking about today, and, like, the other things that I have to do today, like, what chapter can I take on today? And some days, like, and, and when, and, you know, and some days, like, all [00:20:00] I had a need was, like, the logistical stuff.

[00:20:01] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: ‘Cause that’s easy. That’s, like, the ro- like, I know it. Like, it’s, you know, it, you check at the things and you make sure you’re up to date and, like, the, that everything’s accurate. But, like, you know, how to navigate expo is not, like, an emotional exercise necessarily. It’s just getting it on paper, and it’s something that I’ve written, you know, in, in some form, you know, times before.

[00:20:19] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: and, you know, some days you’re, you know, up for a mega research project, which the history section was. That does not exist to my knowledge anywhere else, like the history in that f- in, to that deep level of detail. So, you know, some, some days I felt, like, ready to take that on and, And I kind of put off that last chapter for a while because I wanted to be very much in the right head space to write it. It was actually, it actually was the last thing that I wrote. But, you know, one day I was ready to take that on, and that was the day that, you know, and I say day, I mean, obviously it’s, you know, sort of from a creation of the world type day.

[00:20:51] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: it wasn’t literally each, you know, I wasn’t literally, like, whipping these out, like, one a day. But, but it was sort of like, all right, like, what, like, what do I feel ready to take on today? And it, and once I [00:21:00] had the project kind of segmented in an outline that, you know, is more or less the table of contents now, it was easy to kind of wake up in the morning and say, like, “All right, like, which chapter of this do I feel ready to kinda wrap my head around and put, put on paper today?”

[00:21:14] Jeff Sieh: So how long did it actually take you? Like, are we talking months, a year? Like, what, what is your kind of timeline when you decided to write it that you, to the finish point?

[00:21:22] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: So I think I d- I brain dumped that outline in like mid-March, and the very, the final draft of the, the, the, we’ll talk the partnerships too, but the, of the, the brand agnostic sort of pre-partnership version was finished in mid-June

[00:21:38] Jeff Sieh: Very cool. So I wanna ask the audience,have you been telling yourself you’re gonna write a book? And, and I wanna know, are you writing it, put it, I’m writing it, I’m still talking about it, or it’s already done and you just haven’t sent it out yet? So which one is it? Is it writing it, is it still talking about it, or already done?

[00:21:53] Jeff Sieh: Let us know wherever you’re watching from. I promise, Lauren at Lulu is not gonna take your name down and contact you, but it, it might be [00:22:00] worth it if she does. but one of the quest- Yeah, it would be great. so for the person watching, Lisa, who has expertise but is convinced somebody more qualified should write it, what do you say to them?

[00:22:12] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: I mean, if you wait too long, somebody more, somebody n- the, I’ll take the more qualified out of it, but you know, if you wait too long, somebody else is gonna write it, ’cause the universe never lets an idea rest, right? If you don’t, if you don’t take it by the horns. you know, so it, it’ll exist one day, whether you’re the one who writes it or not.

[00:22:26] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: but like I said, I mean, it’s … You know, first of all, like I, I, I think w- the things that we know best are the things, and this is such a cliche, but it’s so true, like the th- and we all know, the things that you know best are the things that you underestimate your own, yourself on the most, because it’s just sort of knowledge that you start to assume everyone has.

[00:22:42] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: Like, the things that I could sit down and kind of tell you about RunDisney, you know, off the cuff, you know, I just assume everybody knows in some way, shape, or form, because it’s just, it’s obvious knowledge to me after having done it so many times. But I think, you know, what we need to remember is that feeling that way is probably the first [00:23:00] sign, sign that you are the expert, or at least an expert.

[00:23:03] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: And, you know, pair that with, you know, the willingness to tell your story in an honest way. And, you know, maybe you’re not the only person who should write the book, but you’re one of

[00:23:11] Jeff Sieh: Yeah. I, like I didn’t know that you could use petroleum jelly for chafing, and I knew that now from the book. And like, I always wondered why Lou was carrying that around in Momentum, but, you know, we won’t go there. But a lot of people are chiming in saying, like, you know, they’re writing it.

[00:23:25] Jeff Sieh: Like Michelle from Fun and Curious says, “Writing it, but not as fast as I should be.” Don says, “Long ago dreamt of writing a piece of fiction.” So Don, what’s holding you back? Why, why are you not, finishing that up? I think, I think a lot of us say that, and we’re like, “How can we get done?” Like, that’s my problem, getting it finished and out the door to at least let somebody read it.

[00:23:43] Jeff Sieh: I- and Zac is the same way. Like Zac, I remember he was writing. He sent me his first chapter. he’s got an amazing book out, so it’s kinda cool to have two authors on the show, that, uh, we are able to talk to. But, the next part we’re gonna talk about, like, publishing kind of a gut check. Like, would you go self-publish or would you chase a [00:24:00] traditional deal?

[00:24:00] Jeff Sieh: ‘Cause it’s really interesting, both Zac and Lisa self-published, and so I wanna talk about this because a lot of people I know are like, oh, they’re chasing after, like, you know, submitting it. I remember back in the day it was everybody was submitting it to these big publishing houses and getting all these rejection letters back, and then like there’s all these famous authors who’ve gotten like, 50 rejection letters and that was that one thing.

[00:24:20] Jeff Sieh: I mean, even Lou talks about it, like he sent his first book off and nobody would do it except for this small little publishing house, and he’s forever grateful to them. But, you had 17 chapters, three appendices, and they’re amazing, an index, and b- like h- before you wrote everything, you mentioned brain dumping the table of contents.

[00:24:39] Jeff Sieh: Like, how did you keep that scope narrow? one of the things that I know a lot of people have problems with, and I have the same problem too, is like the scope keeps growing. you know, it’s like, oh my gosh, this is gonna be a tome. Like, it’s gonna be huge if I keep going.

[00:24:53] Jeff Sieh: How did you know where it was done and it was like, okay, I’ve got all the chapters done. Now I just need to, you know, [00:25:00] kind of finish it. how do you stop scope creep, I guess?

[00:25:03] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: I think I just had to trust that this was the first book, not the book. And so, like, you know, to the extent that there was more I had to say, it could come in other forms later. Like, like I said, the last chapter of this book is, you know, it’s, it’s the heart of the book for me, and it’s, and, you know, it, it, for the, the 100% of people out there watching who don’t have it in their hands yet, it’s, you know, it’s, it’s sort of a dozen life, life lessons learned from a lifetime of distance running.

[00:25:30] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: Take it as, like, the, if you remember the old book, like, Everything I Ever Needed to Know I Learned in Kindergarten, like, it’s that, but running instead of kindergarten. so, that chapter could have, I could have sat on that chapter, like, forever and ever and ever, because it could have kept growing.

[00:25:43] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: Like, there’s no end to what I could have put into that chapter. But I also knew that that chapter was gonna be its own book, literally, one day. And so, you know, I just kind of had to say, “Okay, like, let’s kind of, let’s put where I am in my own head, like, in this chapter down on paper right now.” [00:26:00] And, you know, even now, like, when I reread that chapter, I’m like, “Oh, I could have included this,” or, “Oh, this sentence could have been different.”

[00:26:04] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: Or, like, and I just have to accept the fact that, you know, that’s gonna be its own book one day. And so, you know, and there’ll be other editions of this book. And also just remembering who your audience is and why you’re writing it. Like, I was writing this book both as a love letter to the runDisney community and, like, a voice to the veteran, but, you know, also, you know, first and foremost as, as a guide to the newcomer, and that person doesn’t need a 600-page book.

[00:26:28] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: That person needs, like, point A to point B. Like, hold my hand, get me there. And the whole point was not to make it feel overwhelming. So, like, you kind of wanted it to be as succinct and straightforward, at least in the, you know, the middle of the book, as possible. So I, I think, remembering your audien- remembering that, that there will be other books and remembering who your audience is are probably the two ways that you can best prevent scope

[00:26:50] Jeff Sieh: Yeah, I love that, knowing that you don’t have to put it all in one big book. Just like, okay, we’ll c- talk about this later. And you even d- you even mention it in your book. You’re just like, “This will be for [00:27:00] another book,” which, you know, kinda gives you a,

[00:27:02] Jeff Sieh: a, a, a little kick in the rear you have to write another

[00:27:05] Jeff Sieh: one

[00:27:05] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: Yes

[00:27:06] Jeff Sieh: right?

[00:27:06] Jeff Sieh: So yeah, that, that was pretty cool

[00:27:08] Zac Brown: And I love that you did this, like you did this yourself. I mean, knowing you as I do, I expect nothing less. But putting it under Castle Run, you know, your own company, your own imprint, your own ISBN,

[00:27:18] Zac Brown: walk us through what that was actually meant practically for you, and knowing what you know now, would you do it that way again?

[00:27:27] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: I mean, absolutely I would do it that way again. It’s kind of like when you get married, and at the end you’re like, “It’s a shame I’m not doing this twice,” because, like, the, the … it was sort of like an exponential learning curve, and now I’m at the top of that, and I’ll never be able to use that information again.

[00:27:40] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: Well, with the book you will, so that’s good. I think yeah, I would absolutely do it this way again. I mean, would it be … You know, will, would I lean into a little bit more help along the way now that I understand all the steps? Like, sure, maybe. But, you know, the fact that I own every step of this process, right down to my, like, Bowker ISBN, you know, it’s, it

[00:27:58] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: Like, I, I own [00:28:00] everything about it. I don’t owe anybody anything. I don’t owe … I’m not getting a … You know, it’s … I don’t owe anybody any part of that process. Like, I own and, and now understand, like, every step, from the writing to the s- like, like, to the, to the ISBN, to the copyright page, to the editing process, to, you know, short of having, you know, an incredibly wonderful, like, designer who actually, like, did the InDesign layout for me because, like, I needed at a certain point to be like, “Okay, Lisa, you c- you can’t, like, have your hands on every single aspect of this,” you know, I, I owned every aspect of it and kind of learned everything along the way.

[00:28:36] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: And, like, what came out of it is, like, this baby that I created that is all mine. And yeah, I would, I would absolutely do it that way again. And I think, like, we’re so lucky to live in a time where that’s kind of the obvious option, you know, where you’re not having to, you know, write the book and then, you know, give it to somebody else for approval or disapproval, or whether or not it’s worthy of their investment or…

[00:28:58] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: You know, you can just kind of put it out into the [00:29:00] world and, like, trust the universe and your community to, to decide those things for you. So yeah, I would absolutely do it that way again. And, and, and thank God for… I mean, we don’t- I know you talk a lot of AI, but, like, thank God for, like, s- tools like that because I literally can go into chat, you know, wheth- whether it’s that I’m working out, like, how to do, like, the, the tax set up on WooCommerce or, like, Rec- Like, all the things, like, that aren’t the writing.

[00:29:27] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: Like, all the things that are, like, the, like, the tech side of it, like setting up all this, like, all the… We even… Like, the stuff on my website that I had to create, that’s… A lot of it’s not live yet, but some of it is. Like, just teaching myself how to do that aspect of things. Like, being able to sort of go into chat and be like, “Talk to me like a very intelligent five-year-old,” is what I always say.

[00:29:47] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: I’m like, “Talk to me like I’m a very intelligent five-year-old. I have no idea. Like, this is not my… Like, I can, I can understand it if you explain it to me, but this is not my wheelhouse. Like, just walk me through it and hold my hand.” Then it’s like, “Click this. Now [00:30:00] click this. Now click…” And it’s, you know, it kind of gets you from point A to point B.

[00:30:03] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: And, and, you know, I think that kind of has leveled the playing field in so many ways because, like, I’m a… You know, I, I think I’m a good writer. I’m confident in my writing skills, and I’m confident in my knowledge of RunDisney, but I’m not, like, necessarily, you know, as confident in, like, in my WordPress skills, you know?

[00:30:19] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: But now I have a tool that can kind of walk me through that, so it’s very doable.

[00:30:23] Jeff Sieh: So that’s a perfect segue because I actually used AI to do something that is part of the show now. But you can go to jeffsieh.com/cheatsheet, and you’ll have a cheat sheet of all the stuff that we talked about today, next steps, all sorts of stuff, and there is no way I’d be able to make this happen without AI, and it’s really, really cool.

[00:30:42] Jeff Sieh: I’d love for you guys to go kick the tires on it, and let me know if there’s any issues. But, uh, we’ve been using it for the past couple weeks, and people have really, really liked it. So jeffsieh.com/cheatsheet to go check that out. but, this is the thing that I think is so brilliant. I’ve seen a lot of people kind of, you know, [00:31:00] do Kickstarter or something like that for their book.

[00:31:03] Jeff Sieh: But you invited companies that you already trusted to partner on the book, and they supported it with flat sponsorship fees. It’s not affiliate commissions, and you disclosed all of it because, you know, ex-lawyer kind of a thing . It was very well done. I saw that throughout the book. But how did you structure that?

[00:31:20] Jeff Sieh: Did y- I mean, how did you pitch it, and how do you protect the reader’s trust in a deal like that? And for those of you who haven’t read the book, and I was lucky enough to get a advance copy, is that she did a very, very… You never felt like it was, like, a sponsorship deal or like, hey, you know. It was very organic inside of her telling the story of why she used this particular thing, and then even some friends who we’ve had, on the show before, Stephen, Cabebe, who is,at Momentum.

[00:31:47] Jeff Sieh: He’s been on the show. You mentioned him and his services. So very organic, but I just, I wanna know how this came about because I think it’s a model that a lot of people don’t think about but could be something that they could use.

[00:31:57] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: Yeah, this was a wild process. [00:32:00] We could do a whole show about this. so I think as I was finishing up, like, the actual just kind of, like, writing of the book, which I had very sort of purposefully done in a brand agnostic way, I started to realize, and it kind of grew and grew as I kind of started to think about it more and more, that this was an opportunity not only to create this, like, logistical guide to the process of RunDisney itself, but also to kind of problem solve all of the questions that come along with being on a RunDisney Disney vacation.

[00:32:31] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: and so I, I kind of started to think about all of the different solutions that I’ve found all over the years from different brands that I personally use and trust,and would feel comfortable putting in front of my own audience in that way. And so as I was wrapping up the writing of the actual kind of brand agnostic book, I started to slowly reach out to different services that kind of filled those buckets.[00:33:00]

[00:33:00] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: So a travel agency, like the service that gets you from the airport to the hotel, like a grocery delivery service, in-room childcare so that you could go do the run at 3:00 in the morning while your kids were still asleep in bed. You know, stroller rental, like, and all the, you know, several different gear, gear companies, costuming companies, anti-chafe companies.

[00:33:21] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: Like, the company who makes the metal hangers that you can like use to celebrate after the fact. Like, all of those kind of were like these buckets that I wanted to fill for the reader with companies, or at least be able to offer that to the reader, to be able to kind of answer all of those questions along the way, in addition to kind of giving you the nuts and bolts of how to get through the process of runDisney itself.

[00:33:45] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: And so I started to reach out to these potential partners, many, many of whom I already knew very well, ’cause that was sort of the point, like these were people that I already use and trust, and in a lot of ways have worked with before. Like Stephen, who is my, he’s [00:34:00] my partner, physical therapist. Like, there’s a strength and conditioning coach that I know very well, who’s also very much embedded in the runDisney community that, that I’m working with.

[00:34:08] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: And I started to reach out to them with what was, you know, a, a very attractive pitch, which is like being able to get them in front of this audience kind of at the very, very beginning of their planning process. And the, the people who these are, like a lot of, you know, a lot of our listeners, like those of us who do Disney podcasts or things like that, like we’re kind of preaching to the choir, and these people kind of already know all of the ins and outs of the answers to those questions.

[00:34:35] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: Like, you know Kids Night Out is like the obvious go-to childcare. You know that Kingdom Strollers is the obvious go-to rentals, whatever. You know that, you know, MEI is a phenomenal travel agent. But if you’re coming into all of this fresh, like with this book in hand, you probably don’t know any of those answers yet And you definitely don’t know the answers if they’re not kind of what’s already on the shelf at Target.

[00:34:57] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: So, like, to be able to go to an anti-chafe company that [00:35:00] usually caters to ultra-marathoners and say, “You know, I can put you in front of… Like, the product that you make is better than Body Glide,” and everybody is sort of assuming to buy Body Glide, ’cause that’s what’s on the shelf at Walmart. Like, but these runDisney people need you at least as much as these ultra-marathoners with their crazy costumes and their park days, and, like, their challenges and all the things.

[00:35:20] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: so I was able to get in front of, like, these partners that were already the companies that I used and say, like, “I can put you in front of these people, like, at the outset when they have no knowledge.” And then all of a sudden you’re their default go-to going forward, and, like, you’re using the anti-chafe when you’re walking around Epcot, and you’re using the stroller company when you’re on a normal trip, and all the things.

[00:35:40] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: So, you know, from that end of things, it was, it was a very easy, very real, like, value add for them that I could offer up. and I wanted the flat fee and not the affiliate deal, in part because I, you know, I, I wanted the partnership, so it wasn’t gonna be free. Like, you have to value your own work and, like, value what you’re, you’re giving to them, and I wanted it [00:36:00] to feel mutual, and I never wanted to resent the work that I was doing for them.

[00:36:04] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: So it had to be, you know, a meaningful flat fee. But at the same time, like, I wanted it to be a partnership. Like, I had no interest whatsoever in spending my year chasing affiliate fees or looking at their accounting, or questioning whether or not they were giving me my due, or, like, having them look at, like, my sales buttons and seeing, like, if my turnaround was worthwhile.

[00:36:23] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: Like, y- it was like the… My, my pitch going in was like, “You’re in it with me or you’re not, and I don’t wanna cut of your sales afterwards. But, like, either you see value in me or you don’t. And if you don’t, I will move on, no hard feelings. I’ll still use your brand. I used it before. I’ll keep using it. But, like, you know, but if, if you see the value in this partnership and you trust me with this partnership, then, you know, then, then let’s do this flat fee and let’s go forward.”

[00:36:49] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: And, and so on that end, a flat fee made sense. And then on the other end too, like, I wanted in no way, shape, or form for my community to feel like I was benefiting if they decided to buy.

[00:36:57] Jeff Sieh: Hmm. Yeah, yeah.

[00:36:58] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: So, like, I, I [00:37:00] don’t want any cut of your… Like, if you decide to use the grocery delivery service that I recommended, I don’t want any part of that money.

[00:37:06] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: I don’t. So, you know, and I don’t want you to feel like that’s why I recommended them. So, you know, so I went to the companies that I already trusted with this ability to put them in front of this awesome, like, very new, very novice audience from the start. and, you know, and it was a flat fee because I, I wanted that trust from the start.

[00:37:25] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: I don’t wanna be cha- chasing their accounting all year. I have other things to do with my time. and I didn’t want my community to feel like I was making money off their backs.

[00:37:32] Jeff Sieh: Did you just, when you were making these deals, ’cause I know there’s a lot of people, we’ve had Justin Moore from, who wrote Sponsor Magnet and a lot of the brand deals things. was the flat fee just for the book? There wasn’t any of your… ‘Cause you have a big Instagram profile as well. Was it, was it any sort of like you get this and, or was it just you’re just in the book?

[00:37:50] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: No. So it’s with one exception, there’s nothing kind of ongoing about the relationship as far as… Because that’s a separate bucket. Like, to me, like, me [00:38:00] being, like, a creator who’s, like, you know, showing you to my Instagram audience in the form of a reel is very different from, like, this value add. So those were two different buckets.

[00:38:09] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: there’s one relationship that’s, that’s not in the book. I have a brand relationship with Fit To Run now the store, and that’s a more digital relationship that will actually have an Instagram presence, and that was structured very differently. They’re not in the, the book for other reasons. but other than that, so the, the buckets that they’re getting, that these partners are getting are, they’re, they’re in appendix C of the book.

[00:38:28] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: So the last appendix of the book is a resource guide that’s ex- it’s, it’s literally like a white pages of the companies that I trust the most that’ll kind of click all those buckets for you. So they exist there. in, in certain cases, they became where, where they were organically relevant, they’re now, they’re mentioned in the body of the book.

[00:38:44] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: So when I’m talking anti-chafe, I mention Squirrels. When I’m talking about travel planning, I talk about MEI. When I’m talking about, you know, physical therapy related issues, I mention Stephen, et cetera, et cetera. So, like, organically in the book, they’re mentioned as appropriate in addition to being in this appendix [00:39:00] C.

[00:39:00] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: there’s also, and we’ll touch on this in other ways, but there’s a companion hub that will go live with the book. There’s a, there’s QR codes to it in the book, and they’ll live there as well. So kind of the biggest thing on that companion hub is a version of that appendix C that kind of lives and is a live version of that with clickable links and all the things, you know, on that companion hub.

[00:39:18] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: So there’s, there’s a… So that’s a page on my website where they also live, and that’s a thing that I will be linking in all of the articles that I write throughout the year that are relevant, and it also will live on my Instagram bio as a link. So they, they’re on my Instagram, but just as a, as a bio link,to that, to that page.

[00:39:36] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: And then the final piece of all of this, which we don’t have time to get into today, and I haven’t even started trying to wrap my head around the logistics of, is that there will be a limited series podcast that launches on the heels of the book that kind of is a… It’s kind of like an audio book, like my take on the audio book of it.

[00:39:51] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: So, like, w- it’ll be like a, a sort of pretty much per chapter, and there’ll be guests where relevant. but they’ll, the, there’ll be a limited series podcast that [00:40:00] sort of does a deep dive into each chapter-ish of, of the book, and they’ll be organically mentioned on that as well. And where I felt like there was a value add to it and it made sense, a part of the contract was also that they would be a guest on the relevant episode.

[00:40:13] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: So for example, when I’m talking about travel, I’ll have Becky from MEI on. When I’m talking about recovery, I’ll have Stephen on for that episode, and my friends at Sparkle Athletic will be a part of the costuming episode, et cetera. So there was, there’s the book existence, the website existence, and then, mention and a potential guest appearance on the podcast.

[00:40:32] Jeff Sieh: See? So smart. When people say, “Well, I don’t know how to make money,” talk to Lisa, ’cause she can figure it out. So that’s very, very cool. Thank you for those, all, all those great ideas

[00:40:39] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: Yeah

[00:40:39] Zac Brown: It’s not a book, it’s a franchise.

[00:40:41] Jeff Sieh: That’s

[00:40:43] Jeff Sieh: right. That’s right

[00:40:44] Zac Brown: Lisa, I’m gonna, I’m just gonna go ahead and just ask for your forgiveness because I’m gonna ask you to put your lawyer hat back on for just a moment, ’cause this applies to everybody watching this. You wrote an entire book about a brand that you do not own. How do you think through fair use [00:41:00] trademarks and disclaimers, and what does a creator making content about a platform or a company that they do not control need to understand before they hit publish?

[00:41:09] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: When I saw this question, I was like, “Oh, man.” This is like the third rail of Disney writing. so I, I mean, so I will start by saying that, like, while I’m very lucky to have an attorney’s background, and I was very lucky to have an attorney’s background when I was negotiating all these contracts with partners and things like that, and I wrote them all and all the things, being an attorney is a blessing and a curse because y- you kind of understand it, but you’re i- like Questions like this are, are kind of like very much front and center, needless to say, as you’re writing probably more so than for the average person.

[00:41:41] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: And so I, I wrote the whole book hyper-aware, hyper-aware of, you know, of IP and kind of, you know, what my rights were and kind of where I stood on things and, and how to best approach it. So I think, you know, setting that aside, I think that, you know, from a, from a trademark perspective, I mean, I think you’ll [00:42:00] see the book is very carefully orchestrated.

[00:42:02] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: You know, the… It, it says The RunDisney Companion on the front. RunDisney is not in the trademarked font, they do not use the trademark. Like, the actual picture of me that’s on the front of the book, I mean, it’s, it’s a rendered version of an actual pic- an actual picture of me, but I have a RunDisney tank top on in the actual picture, which was sort of taken off of the black tank top.

[00:42:23] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: Um, the medal that’s around my neck, it says Marathon Weekend. It does not have a dopey on it. It does not say anything. Like, everything was very carefully orchestrated in that way, and I think short of like one friend of Mary who’s in a picture, there are no characters in it, so, um, who I call a friend of Mary for that very specific reason.

[00:42:41] Zac Brown: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:42] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: So it’s, it’s all orchestrated, you know, sort of very carefully from that perspective. And I mean, the disclaimers are hilarious, like I’m such a lawyer if you read. And you’re welcome to use them. You’re welcome to like look at them and like take them for yourselves if you’re in this space as well. But I mean, my copyright page is a riot.

[00:42:58] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: if you, if you wanna spend some [00:43:00] time with it, you’re welcome to. if you can fall asleep reading it. but, but that’s, you know, that’s, that’s all very much there for a reason, and it’s, you know, I’m… And, and, and I think that, not to tangent, you know, too much, but I, I, I think that like I chose to frame the book as a positive in that way, and like if you…

[00:43:16] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: The, before the first chapter, there’s a page that’s like basically what this book is and what this book is not. and you know, in that, on that page, I’m very clear that it’s not affiliated with or endorsed by the Disney company in any way, shape, or form. But then I kind of spin that, and it’s real to, to the positive, which is what this book is, which is, you know, a how-to guide by somebody who like really went through it.

[00:43:37] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: And this isn’t like Disney sponsored. This isn’t like Disney like endorsed or approved. Like, this is me being free to talk to you like one-on-one as somebody else who’s actually in it. So that’s how I chose to kind of, you know, present that disclaimer in a positive light, which I think it very much is. and then, you know, all that being said, like what this all boils down to, right, is fair use, and You know, [00:44:00] the, you know, Disney legal is Disney legal, and they, the, what they choose to do or not to do is sort of, you know, we’re beholden to it.

[00:44:06] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: But, you know, I do understand fair use very well and, and, you know, w- fair use allows us the limited use of copyright, you know, for a- among other purposes, you know, commentary and education. And so I, I think that you need to, you know, when you are working in a space that’s owned by another company, whose IP is owned by another company, you have to be very, very careful in making sure that to the extent that you’re using their, you’re co- you know, or referencing things or, you know, or, or making, you know, talking about those things, you know, along the way, that you’re doing it in a way that serves a purpose above and beyond, like, their bare existence.

[00:44:44] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: You know, and so in my book, I’m very confident that, you know, that I’m fine from a fair use perspective because when I’m talking about these things, I’m talking about them to teach. Like, and, and, and as, as, as sort of necessary examples to, like, make the things that I’m teaching clear. Like, I couldn’t talk [00:45:00] about RunDisney without talking about RunDisney.

[00:45:02] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: Like, I couldn’t mention PhotoPass without mentioning PhotoPass. Like, you know, all of these things that sort of they own, like, I’m not just talking about them because they’re Disney popular things and I know they’ll get eyes. I’m talking about them because they’re just a part of what I’m teaching. And so, you know, I think that you just need to make sure that you’re adding value.

[00:45:20] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: It’s all about value add, right? Like, that’s just, like, the theme that goes through all of this. But I, I, you know, from a legal perspective as well, you know, especially when you’re in a space like Disney’s, you have to make sure that, you know, you’re doing the things that fair use requires, which is the kind of u- that you’re using the IP in as limited a way as you can and with a, with a further purpose.

[00:45:40] Jeff Sieh: so, our friend, Sean from But Mostly Disney says, “Tell me about it. I love my brand name, but I might have not picked it in retrospect.” very, very, very true. And then Lauren says she y- loved the idea of p- of a podcast. She’ll want to be able to listen to this while doing running and training, which is super smart, that I never even thought about for a podcast, is like that, of course.

[00:45:58] Jeff Sieh: Why would… That would make [00:46:00] perfect sense for a runner, to listen to a running book while they’re doing that. So, so Lisa, you and I have known each other for, quite a long time. Like, I was trying to think of how long, but it was way back, I think, at Social Media Marketing World. You were there with Lou doing some stuff.

[00:46:13] Jeff Sieh: and I was thinking, you know, I don’t know if the Lisa that I met there would’ve been able to do this book. But I’ve s- I went back, even looked at m- the old podcast you came on for a little bit, and I’ve noticed how much, even between then and now, your confidence has grown. Just from like, I think it’s because of, like, you had a candle business that was super successful.

[00:46:30] Jeff Sieh: You had all these other things that you have done that have been, been successful. So how much does the past success and, and failures contribute to knowing that, “Yeah, I can make this book. Like, I know it’s gonna be hard. I know it’s gonna be difficult. But listen, I’ve done a candle business. I’ve done a pop-up shop that was, went bonkers.

[00:46:48] Jeff Sieh: I know all this stuff.” So how much does you think your past success/failures contribute into the confidence to write a book?

[00:46:56] Zac Brown: Hmm.

[00:46:56] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: I mean, I, I think, like, what the [00:47:00] throughway is through all of it, and, and, like, the version of me that you met, like, back in whatever

[00:47:05] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: it was, 2017, 18, like, back in social media marketing, that was- it was social med- that first Social Media Marketing World. And I remember, and I told you afterwards, I remember, like, sitting at that table at Nobu feeling, like, so out of my element.

[00:47:14] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: And so… ‘Cause I was. Like, I was coming in as, like, I used to be this expert and this, like, respected person in this very different part of the world, and I had sort of uprooted myself, and all of the sudden I knew nothing in this new world that I was in. I think, the lesson learned through all of the things is, first of all, like, every project that I’ve done, there has been sort of a commonality of, like, the storytelling and the things and, like, the sort of the, the skills that I’ve been honing very purposefully through all of these seemingly very different projects.

[00:47:44] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: And then there’s also sort of very practical things that I’ve learned along the way. Like, I, I learned WooCommerce and marketing and all the, like, things related to that in candles, and I also learned that I never wanna deal with a physical product again in my life,

[00:47:55] Jeff Sieh: That’s right, yeah

[00:47:57] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: So, so, you [00:48:00] know, I’ve sort of, like, taken the education of each of these things and kind of brought it into the next thing.

[00:48:05] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: But I think, like, the confidence that it’s, it’s inspired more than anything, and, like, what k- sort of came into the book is just knowing that, like, I can learn it. Like, I can f- like, the confidence of just knowing that, like, whatever our… Like, I’m, I’m a good writer and I know all of the things about Run Disney, but there’s a gazillion things about, like, this book publishing process and, like, all of the stuff that has come up around it that I knew nothing about going into all of this.

[00:48:30] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: And I wouldn’t even have known the questions to ask. Like, I didn’t start writing this book with an eye toward, like, a podcast and partnerships and all of these things. That’s sort of all come up around it. And, and I, and I think, like, the f- the thing at the outset that gave me the strength and confidence to do it is just knowing that, like That I can figure it out, and that, like, I have a community around me of experts that I can go to, like, like when it’s time to tackle, like, the logistics of the podcasts.

[00:48:57] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: Like, I know a guy, you know who [00:49:00] kinda might be able to help a little bit, you know? And then, and, you know, we joke about the AI tools, but, like, there, there is a tool there that, like, in the middle of the night when, like, there’s a reCAPTCHA issue on my site that’s, like, blowing up and making an issue, which happened a few days ago, you know, that I can literally say, like, “Click me through.”

[00:49:15] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: Like, “Show me, like, the things to do.” Like, “How do I fix this?” And, like, just being patient and just trusting the process and, and knowing that, like, as long as you kind of build enough time in to figure it all out, that, that you can figure it all out. I’ve been working around the clock, to say the least, for the last few months. Um,but, like, but, but figuring it out. Like, just figuring it out along the way. And so, like, I… No, I, I didn’t know, like, a lot of the things that I would’ve needed to have known, like, going into all of this. But I, what I had was the confidence that I could figure it

[00:49:45] Jeff Sieh: Yeah, you, you n- nail- knocked it out of the park. It was… It’s a great book, so you should be very, very proud. Um,So one of the cool things about Lisa’s book is, one, she’s an amazing photographer as well. She’s super talented. And like even Sean says, “Has Lisa ever failed?”

[00:49:59] Jeff Sieh: [00:50:00] We won’t talk about that now. But, um, but she’s an incredible photographer and, and the pictures that are in the book are awesome. Like, as, as a not runner, seeing the behind-the-scenes stuff of, of the, the track and the race day and all this stuff is really, really cool. And Dan, I, I h- I don’t know if you got an advance copy yet, but that last photo was what made me cry.

[00:50:19] Jeff Sieh: So that’s, that’s why. So, um, you guys go check that out. It’s a, it’s a great… And even, you know, people still are talking about your candles. Your scents are amazing. Are your candles there? Wanting another pop-up shop already, Lisa. That’s why they’re here. anyway, but the- seeing your, your prog- progression in this book and then finally being able to read it was just so cool.

[00:50:37] Jeff Sieh: I, I’ve known you for, such a long time, so it was very, very well done

[00:50:42] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: Thank you. I’m super proud of it. Like, and I’m super proud of, like, everything that’s growing around it, and the community reception to it has been so incredible. Like, just above and beyond. Like, that, that afternoon where I was just like, “All right, let’s just write an outline and start doing this,” like, what that has grown into since, [00:51:00] like…

[00:51:00] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: But, and, and, you know, in part just, like, this physical thing. Like, like, like, this thing I can, like, hold in my hands, like it’s real, you know? But, but then this, like, whole ecosystem that’s growing around it, and, like, the community love, and, like, all of the things, it’s been absolutely incredible, and I’m so lucky to have taken it on and been a part of it.

[00:51:16] Zac Brown: I love what you just said, and you, you literally just glossed over it. You went, “I just decided to sit down and write the outline.” Like, how many people just don’t make that step, that it’s seemingly so daunting or so nerve-wracking or f- you know, the power of the idea that this thing could fail, but it’s like, oh, but what if it doesn’t?

[00:51:35] Zac Brown: You know, that you were just like, “I’m gonna sit down, I’m gonna write the outline, and we’re just gonna see what happens.” I think that’s

[00:51:39] Zac Brown: great

[00:51:39] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: And it’s a full, it, we just came full circle on the conversation, right? Because the first question was like, what made having a date on the calendar be, like, make it real and make it something that you actually acted on. And like so often it’s, it really is just like making, taking that first, like, tangible step that, like, gives you kind of your mind sort of something to kind of start to mold itself [00:52:00] around.

[00:52:00] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: Like whether it’s like a date on the calendar that is sort of like a, a throughway to like figuring out like what your new identity’s gonna be, to, you know, brain dumping an outline one afternoon so that you had something to kind of take on each morning when you woke up of like a, of a segment of this thing.

[00:52:15] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: you know, just kind of like making it tangible is the first step so often.

[00:52:19] Jeff Sieh: Yeah. So, we are already running short on time. This has been so great. But, let’s talk about your launch day. Like, what do you have planned for launch day? It’s next week. What day is it gonna launch? I can’t remember off the top of my head. Friday.

[00:52:34] Jeff Sieh: So, So, talk about a little bit what’s happening, what people who wanna get this book…

[00:52:38] Jeff Sieh: And I’m telling you folks, even if you aren’t a runner, but you love Disney and you lo- Or even just finding out how to put a book together and all the s- the cool stuff, if you have a brand that you wanna kinda talk about someday, like Lisa’s book is just the, the, it’s so good. but talk about where people can find you, and all the stuff you’ve got going on on launch day

[00:52:56] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: So yeah, so on launch day, it, the book [00:53:00] will go live,on Amazon in its tangible form, in its paperback form, and then on my website, in its paperback form and also as, as an e-book. and I’ll be reaching out to my partnership, um, should they wanna share, that it’s gone live so that they can do that on their socials and such, so they’ll all have graphics and links and all that stuff that morning.

[00:53:18] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: Um, and then more importantly, like to my own readership, both my sort of warm audience that’s actively signed up for updates on the book will kind of get the first wave email, with the links to purchase. and then my larger email list will get, you know, kind of the wave of, of, of emails after that, you know, later that morning.

[00:53:34] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: and I’ll be directing people to purchase on Amazon initially because you have to feed the beast. so the, the, the reality, you know, as much as I would love to direct people to my own website from day one, you know, the reality is that, you know, I want this to hit as wide an audience as possible, and the way to do that is by ranking on Amazon on day one.

[00:53:51] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: So, all of those UR- URLs and all of the social shares and stuff will be directing to Amazon, you know, as of that first day, and that’s a big reason why that QR code for [00:54:00] that companion hub is on the book, because I’ll be able to capture my audience, you know, whether they come in through Amazon or otherwise because that QR code for updates and such on the back of the book will bring you into my ecosystem regardless of, of where you buy.

[00:54:11] Jeff Sieh: See, that is so genius, folks. Just, I mean, the way she’s put this together, the sponsorships, I just think it’s fascinating. I think it’s amazing. make sure you go out and support her on Amazon. Will there be eventu- I’m a big Kindle guy. will there be eventually be… I know you mentioned a podcast, kind of a audio stuff or that.

[00:54:25] Jeff Sieh: Will it be an audio or a, or a Kindle version of the book coming in the

[00:54:29] Jeff Sieh: future?

[00:54:30] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: absolutely. So I don’t wanna dilute or distract on day one, and so the Kindle version is set up and, and ready to go. that, that’s sort of the last piece of what my designer’s working on right now. so I, I’m loosely planning for August 14th or so for the Kindle version of the book.

[00:54:45] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: so there’ll be the, the paperback on August 7th on Amazon, and about a week later, I’ll, you know, plan to, to make the Kindle version of it live. And then on my website from day one, there’ll be, um, there’ll be both. So you can purchase And I’ve l- And [00:55:00] Lulu will ful- ful- fulfill the– Just to disclose the back end of things, Lulu will, fulfill the, the hard copy of the book.

[00:55:06] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: But Lulu Direct actually unfortunately doesn’t support e-books, so I’m going through BookFunnel for them. So you can buy the hardback on my website, or the hard copy as well on my website, um,through Lulu will, will be doing fulfillment, and they do a beautiful print job. Like, it’s a full color, gorgeous print.

[00:55:21] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: and then there’ll be an EPUB and PDF version that’s sold through my website that’s fulfilled through BookFunnel, and then you can buy it as a bundle, which was trickier than you would expect to set up. But you can buy it, you can buy it as the bundle on my website, like where for a deeply discounted price you can get both,through the website.

[00:55:38] Lisa DiNoto Glassner: So and that’ll be live from day one on the website. You’ll be able to get the e-version as

[00:55:42] Jeff Sieh: So folks, wh- why even mess around? Just buy the bundle. Go to thecastlerun.com/book. Check that out. thank you so much, Lisa, for this. It’s been amazing. a- and I, I hope… I, I know you’ll have s- huge success, and I’m already looking forward to your second book that I know you’ll be writing soon. thank you so much.

[00:55:59] Jeff Sieh: [00:56:00] Somebody else who’s got a book. Where can people find out about the amazing, incredible Zac Brown?

[00:56:04] Zac Brown: Uh, you can follow me on, and the socials, Zac Brown Creative. Got a podcast, “The Zac Brown Show.” A new episode dropped today with the fabulous Katie Fawkes. It was a fun conversation. I’d love for you to check that out wherever you get your podcasts

[00:56:18] Jeff Sieh: Yeah. That’s awesome. And by the way, Katie and I will be actually carving and she’ll be crocheting. We’re gonna have a bunch of fun, at 1:00 today at The Maker’s Table. You can find us at The Maker’s Table everywhere. But thank you so much for Ecamm for sponsoring the show. You can find out more about them at ecamm.com/jeff.

[00:56:32] Jeff Sieh: Thank you so much to our amazing chat room, But Mostly Disney, Dan Boyle, Lisa, everybody who, left comments. You are awesome because you are

[00:56:54] Jeff Sieh: Thank you so much everybody. Have a great weekend. We will see you next time. Thanks Lisa. Bye [00:57:00] everybody

SHOW TRANSCRIPT

This transcript is automatically generated by Descript.  Any errors or omissions are unintentional.

[00:00:05] Jeff Sieh: [00:00:00] Hello, folks. Welcome to Creator News Live. I’m Jeff Sieh, and you’re not

[00:00:09] Zac Brown: And I’m Zac Brown, and this is the show that keeps you up to date on the creator economy and so much more

[00:00:14] Jeff Sieh: Have you ever built up an audience but always wondered how to turn it into something real? An event, a community, a room full of people who actually know each other? Do you pour everything into one big moment a year, a launch, or maybe an event, and then just watch the energy just fade away? And be honest, do you ever feel like you’re just shouting into a feed instead of building something people actually belong to?

[00:00:36] Jeff Sieh: If that sounds like you, well, you are in the right place

[00:00:39] Zac Brown: Our guest today is Mike Potter, the host of For Mac Eyes Only, one of the longest-running independent Apple podcasts out there, and the founder of Macs. Conference & Expo, which just celebrated its 10th anniversary. Congrats, Mike. Mike has spent two decades building an audience and 10 years turning it into a real in-person community, and today he is [00:01:00] sharing how he did it, how he keeps people coming back, and how to stay connected to the people all year long

[00:01:04] Jeff Sieh: So sit back, clear your schedule, clear your mind, and get ready for this week’s episode of Creator News Live Awesome, awesome, amazing Mike Potter is here. But we could not do the show without our amazing sponsors, and they are the folks over at Ecamm. You can find out more about them at, ecamm.com/jeff. You can save 15% by using code JEFF15 with your first purchase. And also, I wanted to give them a shout-out because they actually have camp coming up.

[00:01:54] Jeff Sieh: We just did MacStock Camp, last month, but, this is their big flagship event. It’s [00:02:00] three days in Portsmouth, New Hampshire. You can find out more about that at ecamm.com/ camp, and it’s limited to 100, campers, and it’s from September 28th through the 30th. I’m gonna be speaking there. Michael Hyatt will be there.

[00:02:13] Jeff Sieh: Pat Flynn will be there. Paul Gowder, who’s in here all the time, he’s gonna be there. So make sure you guys go check that out at ecamm.com/camp. And with that, it’s time for Mr. Mike Potter. Mike, thank you so much for being here with us today

[00:02:28] Mike Potter: Well, thank you so much for having me, Jeff. This is amazing. two, two questions up front though, if I may. one, what are the royalties on that song? Uh, and then two, well, this isn’t more a question but a statement, I really appreciate that you dressed me up for the thumbnail because, I’m kind of a T-shirt and hat kind of guy, and so to s- you know, to see me in an Oxford shirt is a rare thing, and I, I very much appreciate that

[00:02:51] Jeff Sieh: Yeah, it was great. It was fun. the AI stuff just keeps getting better and better, and so far no one’s, you know, sued me for using their likeness. I knew you’d be okay with [00:03:00] it, so, it was a lot of fun to put together. so let’s talk about this g- to building a community, because you have done one from MacStock, and you just wrapped up MacStock X.

[00:03:10] Jeff Sieh: It’s y- the 10th anniversary, actually, which is, that’s a long time for a conference. That’s really, really cool. But before we get into how you built it, I want you to take us back to the very first one. I believe it was in 2015. what made a podcaster decide to put people in a room, and were you terrified that nobody would show up?

[00:03:29] Mike Potter: Okay, so I’ll answer the second question first. no, I wasn’t terrified because, it had kind of just been teed up for me. It was teed up for me and, and ready to go, and I’ll explain what that means in just a moment. So I first had the idea for MacStock in mid to late 2009, something like that.

[00:03:49] Mike Potter: In fact, I looked it up just before the show. I found my original notes, all the notes that I took on what I wanted MacStock to be, and I wrote those up in January [00:04:00] 2010. they were revised in 2012 and then again in 2015 for the, the year that we actually held it. And the original idea for MacStock was to be a meetup for the listeners of my podcast.

[00:04:15] Mike Potter: That was it. That was what it was intended to be. but as I started to take notes, as I started to think about what I, what I wanted, MacStock to entail, I realized it probably was gonna be a little bit bigger than just a meetup. And, so it, a- and I also realized it, it was gonna take a little bit more planning.

[00:04:31] Mike Potter: So, I presented the idea in, in January 2010, I presented the idea to a friend of mine, Barry Folk, he said, “Oh, Mike, come on. Macworld’s still going on. That’s where everybody meets up every year. I don’t, I don’t know that you would have a whole lot of luck attracting people from all over to come to MacStock.”

[00:04:49] Mike Potter: I said, “Ah, fair enough. Okay.” But in 2012, I did a little floater. I did a little, um,floated a trial balloon, you know, to see what would happen, and so I put out the word to my audience, “Hey, let’s, [00:05:00] let’s gather in my office in Woodstock, Illinois, for MacStock and record an episode of For Mac Guys Only.

[00:05:08] Jeff Sieh: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:08] Mike Potter: Let’s just do it.” And I had people show up, I had people show up. It was crazy. I had someone drive from St. Louis for, this thing. It wasn’t called MacStock. It was just, it was a, uh, For Mac Guys Only meetup

[00:05:22] Jeff Sieh: Got it

[00:05:22] Mike Potter: And, had my, various co-hosts and, and regular guests come. I, brought in my pal Gaz Maz from the UK via Skype, to join us, and then, this gentleman from St.

[00:05:35] Mike Potter: Louis showed up. So it was a small but fun group. We had a great time just kinda hanging out, recording the show, and talking Mac stuff.

[00:05:44] Jeff Sieh: That’s awesome

[00:05:45] Mike Potter: and then, and then Macworld decided in 2015 they were no longer going to have Macworld. They said, “Yep, that’s it. No more. 2014 was it.” And my friend Barry said, “You know, I, I still [00:06:00] wanna see my friends.

[00:06:00] Mike Potter: I still wanna see everybody that I, I would meet up with at Macworld every year. and talk about hubris, talk about crazy. going to have a barbecue in my backyard, and I’m going to invite all these amazing folks I know from Macworld to my backyard here in Northern Illinois for a barbecue.” And they all said, “Yeah, we’re gonna come out to this barbecue.” So people are now flying in to the Chicagoland area to attend Barry’s barbecue crazy.

[00:06:32] Jeff Sieh: So there was no barbecue this year, so what

[00:06:34] Mike Potter: No barbecue this year. Well, so when he invited me and he showed me the list of folks who are coming, I said, “Barry, remember this thing MacStock I was talking to you about?” he, “Yeah.” “You, you have this amazing list of folks flying in for your barbecue. Maybe we could kinda do a dual thing.

[00:06:54] Mike Potter: Maybe I could do MacStock and you could do your barbecue, and we could host it on the same [00:07:00] day. And by the way, could you introduce me to some of these folks on your list, and I’ll see if they’re interested in speaking?” And so we had Allison Sheridan and Chuck Joiner and Brett Terpstra and, you know, all these amazing folks that were coming to his, his backyard for a barbecue.

[00:07:15] Mike Potter: I reached out to them and said, ” Here’s what I’m thinking. Here’s what I would like to do. This would be pre-barbecue. Would you like to present?” And every single one of them said, “Oh yeah, you bet.” Well, now I had a conference I had to figure out how to put together, and I had about six weeks to do it. So, yeah, I put it all together in about six weeks.

[00:07:35] Mike Potter: I looked at what other small conferences were doing, and I, assigned every speaker a 20-minute time slot and said, “You got 20 minutes to do your presentation.” I took that from TEDx, by the way. m- 20-minute talk or 15-minute talks, I can’t remember. And I said, “All right. Well, I’ll, I’ll be generous.

[00:07:51] Mike Potter: I’ll give them 20 minutes.” And, uh, we had 20-minute talks, a full day of amazing presentations, and then we all piled in [00:08:00] cars and drove to Barry’s for a barbecue that night. So the very first MacStock was one day, thrown together in six weeks, and I knew it was successful when at the end of it, people walked up to me and said, “When is the next one?”

[00:08:13] Zac Brown: Hmm.

[00:08:14] Mike Potter: I said, “Well, I just got through this one, but if you give me a couple weeks, I’ll figure out when the next one is.” And that’s, that’s how it came about.

[00:08:22] Jeff Sieh: I can only imagine how much work it comes to putting a conference. Our friend Lou Mongello, who does the WDW radio podcast, he puts on Momentum, which I talked to you about, and I know it, it’s a, it’s a big thing. Like, he limits his to 50, and you mentioned before that you get what’s called, what your, I think your wife calls the MacStock brain, where you, you, you…

[00:08:41] Jeff Sieh: It’s hard to, it’s hard to process things during that time. So I know it’s a lot of work, but, a- and we’re gonna get into it later, but I, I really do appreciate it. It was a very… And I see a lot of conferences, I’ve spoken at a lot, but this was very, very well put together, but not so formal that it felt stifling.

[00:08:57] Jeff Sieh: It was really, really good. And as a new [00:09:00] person, you know, a lot of times there’s cliques that happen and stuff like that. I felt very welcome, and people came up, talked to me, and included me and stuff. So kudos to you for a great, conference, this, this past, couple weeks. So thank you for that.

[00:09:11] Mike Potter: means a ton, uh, uh,especially from a first-time attendee, such as yourself, to hear that you had a good time, to feel that you weren’t excluded, to feel that, you know, folks welcomed you and, and that you felt relaxed and at home is, is exactly what I wanted it to be. And, you know, I think that’s one of the keys when you do something like this, is to put on an event that you would like to attend

[00:09:33] Jeff Sieh: Yeah, I can tell. You could tell

[00:09:35] Zac Brown: Mike, do you, you know, you’ve went from going like, “I’ve got this podcast, I’ve got this community,” this pre-barbecue gathering, but what was that leap when you were like, “I host a show,” to now, “I’m running a conference”? And what would you say that you underestimated the most about that?

[00:09:51] Mike Potter: Well, once we got past that first year Which again, was put together very quickly, spur of the moment, but again, it was something [00:10:00] that, I would have wanted to attend. But once you got past that first year, just the, the sheer amount of behind-the-scenes work that goes into, running it every year.

[00:10:11] Mike Potter: Uh, you know, r- setting up the venue, attempting to, form partnerships and/or sponsorships with, uh, companies, which I’ve kind of evolved into more partnerships over the years rather than sponsorships. I found that that works a lot better because, again, we talked about going down rabbit holes here.

[00:10:29] Mike Potter: partnerships work better because they’re much more involved in the weekend than a sponsor is. Sponsors are happy to just throw a little money your way, and you promote their product, and then they move on. But a partner, someone that is invested in what you’re doing, is going to be there and be involved and want to participate themselves.

[00:10:51] Mike Potter: And so that’s why I’ve kind of evolved to that throughout the years. But still, it’s, it’s, a lot of work behind the scenes, arranging all [00:11:00] that. and, uh, just, just simple things. Simple, stupid things like the T-shirt every year is something that I have a great time designing.

[00:11:09] Mike Potter: I come up with the design every year for the T-shirt, and, and, I have a great time doing it, and I’m always excited to reveal it to people when MacStockthe swag that they get, you know, all, all the little things. All the little things I bug my wife and daughter about, “Hey, would this be good? Would this be good? What do you think about this?” and, yeah.

[00:11:27] Jeff Sieh: and it’s funny ’cause you see a lot of, you see a lot of people wearing past MacStock shirts coming to the conference, which is cool. Like, people were bragging about like, “I got this one in 2015,” or what- whatever the latest one was. So I wanna go back and, and pick on this a little bit, about the sponsorship/partnership that you’ve done.

[00:11:45] Jeff Sieh: ’cause I… There’s a lot of people, myself included, like how we do masterminds, we do some mastermind meetups. But like Paul and I, and even Zac a little, you know, we’ve talked about like, okay, what does an event look like if we ever want to do that ourselves? So how do you find [00:12:00] sponsors/partners like what you kinda did with Ecamm this year?

[00:12:03] Jeff Sieh: Does that happen organically? Do you go and like, do you just like hit up your network? Like, how do you find those people who can help sponsor your event?

[00:12:11] Jeff Sieh: You’re gonna hear me say something several times during this show, but it’s, it’s very true. I’ve been lucky. lucky and fortunate to have people who want to support my endeavor and one of the very early sponsorships that I’m, I’m very grateful for is Otherworld Computing, OWC. Uh,Mm-hmm.

[00:12:34] Mike Potter: it just so happened that one of my presenters worked there at the time, and got into a conversation with them, told them about MacStock, and they said, “Well, this is fantastic because it’s in our backyard.”

[00:12:46] Mike Potter: For those who don’t know, OWC is, their corporate headquarters is in Woodstock, Illinois, which is where is held. So, that worked out fantastically, and, they were very involved, early [00:13:00] on, and, I’m, I’m very grateful for that. And then I had other folks who, attended MacStock who had relationships with sponsors who reached out to me and said, “Hey, would you like me to introduce you to X company or Y company?”

[00:13:15] Mike Potter: So in that sense, those early sponsorships were very organic. But the latest is Ecamm. You know, you mentioned Creator Camp MacStock Edition, which we did for the very first time this year. But this partnership with Ecamm came about, simply because I was giving a talk about Ecamm Live, as it was called at the time.

[00:13:35] Mike Potter: So three years ago, I was, I was doing my own presentation on Ecamm Live because I wanted to introduce it to the MacStock audience. I love the software. I’ve been using it for a long time, and I just thought more, more people could benefit from it. We’re all Mac users, right? So, I was giving one of my 90-minute workshops on Ecamm Live, and I just so happened to reach out to marketing@ecamm.com, I think is what I [00:14:00] reached out to.

[00:14:01] Mike Potter: And the, the whole point of reaching out was just, ” Hey,not expecting anything of this. All I really wanted to do is let you know I’m giving a talk on Ecamm Live. I thought you might be interested to hear that. When all is done, I’ll have a recording of it if you want to see it.” And I got an amazingly generous email back, which is why it’s such a good partnership, because they’re, they’re also a company that, believes in community.

[00:14:24] Mike Potter: But, I got an amazingly generous email back that just said, “How can we help?” And from that point forward, it’s just grown. You know, every year it’s been a little bit more, up to the point where we could host Creator Camp MacStock Edition this year, which, expanded. By adding Creator Camp, we expanded MacStock to four days this year, which felt very overwhelming, in the days and weeks leading up to it, but, turned out to maybe not be quite enough time.

[00:14:53] Mike Potter: It always feels like not enough time when it’s over,

[00:14:55] Jeff Sieh: it was such a fun conference. I got so much done. I learned so much. and also I like when I [00:15:00] speak at the beginning of the conference, and then I don’t have to worry about it. I don’t have that dread leading, like when they put you on the last day, you’re like, “Oh man, this is gonna be a long week.”

[00:15:08] Jeff Sieh: No, but it was, it was great doing the first. but it was a lot of, a lot of fun. Yeah.

[00:15:12] Mike Potter: Why do you think I scheduled my talks

[00:15:14] Jeff Sieh: That’s right. Exactly. Exactly. Smart man. Smart man

[00:15:18] Mike Potter: Yeah

[00:15:18] Zac Brown: And it’s your conference, you get to make the rules.

[00:15:21] Mike Potter: yeah

[00:15:21] Zac Brown:

[00:15:21] Zac Brown: for MacGeiz Only has been going on for 20 years, which is basically forever in podcast time. what has kept you at the mic that long, and how much did that show become the on-ramp for everything MacStock turned into?

[00:15:35] Mike Potter: Wow. good question What has kept me at the mic? You know, it’s the community, honestly. It’s the folks who listen to it and send me their feedback, send me their questions, tell me where I’m wrong, tell me where, where they agree with me. but the community is what keeps me going. but what also keeps me going are my co-hosts.

[00:15:57] Mike Potter: there was a time a few years ago, [00:16:00] especially aft- So I often joke, it’s easy to do a weekly podcast when you’re working for someone else because you’re on someone else’s dime, right? But when you, when, when… That’s a joke. That’s a joke. But when, when I left the ad agency I was working for for 10 years, because unfortunately they had closed, and formed my own business Escape Technologies Group, which is web development and, you know, PC and Mac support and things like that.

[00:16:30] Mike Potter: When I formed that business and I started doing the podcast on my time, on business time, it became a little bit different beast, right? And because it is a hobby. For Mac Eyes Only has been a hobby for 20 years. It hasn’t been a m- a way to, make a living. It’s been something that I do for fun,

[00:16:50] Jeff Sieh: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:51] Mike Potter: and I wanted to make sure it was going to continue to be fun.

[00:16:54] Mike Potter: So for a while, I actually pulled back from, not, not only did I pull back from doing it [00:17:00] weekly, but I pulled back from doing it regularly, much to the chagrin of listeners and to, my co-hosts. And it was one of my co-hosts, Eric, who,poked me just enough to, to get me to, to get back on the horse again, as it were.

[00:17:15] Mike Potter: And we decided for both of us, because he also owns a small business, for both of us to, what, what kind of schedule would work for us? And the schedule that we came up with was twice a month, every other week. Instead of doing it weekly, we’re now doing it every other, every other week, and it has allowed us to not only just, you know, to, to record and edit and get out the show, but now we live stream the recording of the show, which was something that, we wanted to add just to give a little bit, a little bit more back to the audience so they could see what happens behind the scenes before we go live, as it were.

[00:17:56] Mike Potter: Before we start, live to tape, which we always did [00:18:00] over Skype and we always did with Call Recorder and, you know, we always did it that way, but nobody, nobody ever got to see or hear the conversations that happened before that. And now they do. And I’m not sure that they’re always great conversations, but, you know, they’re, they’re fun conversations.

[00:18:18] Mike Potter: And they’ll go down all kinds of rat holes. And, uh, then we start recording about 20 minutes in, and sometimes longer, and record the show. And then, what they don’t get are the after hours, because once we, once we end the live stream, that’s, that ends what they get. But they do get the, you know, the pre-show stuff, which is fun.

[00:18:40] Mike Potter: So yeah, the audience mainly is what keeps us going. I’m sorry, Jeff,

[00:18:43] Mike Potter: I didn’t mean

[00:18:44] Jeff Sieh: no. I was just gonna say that that’s exactly the same reason, like we do this show every week unless, like, I’m traveling or at a conference or something, is because of the people who show up, is we’ve got people in the audience today that I wanna do a shout-out to.

[00:18:56] Jeff Sieh: We’ve got, the amazing Paul Gowder. saying, “Happy birthday, Jeff.” [00:19:00] Yes, it is my birthday. And my,

[00:19:02] Zac Brown: um … Well, thank you. My … And here’s, of course, from my daughter, “Happy birthday, Dad. You’re so old,” in all caps. She’s yelling at me. Um,it’s in all caps so that you can read

[00:19:11] Zac Brown: it from a,

[00:19:12] Jeff Sieh: probably is exactly the reason. And then, Megan Powers, who’s also has a great podcast, says, “Good morning,” and also, “Happy birthday.”

[00:19:18] Jeff Sieh: So thank you, everybody, for the birthday, uh, wishes. I appreciate it from everybody. Thank you so much, Uh, but it’s a community and, and that’s what, makes this live show so much fun, every week that we do it.

[00:19:28] Jeff Sieh: But I wanna ask you kind of a question about, you know, 10 years. Like that, that’s a long time. So what is something about running an event that you had to learn the hard way? Like, the mistakes you would warn somebody like myself, a creator turned organizer, about, you know, something they need to do before they sell even a single ticket or even start promoting that, hey, we got an event coming up

[00:19:52] Mike Potter: Okay, so here’s what comes to mind. I d- I don’t know if this falls under the category of the hard way, but it [00:20:00] is a lesson that I think everybody needs to learn if you’re going to do something like this, and it’s a very important lesson in my opinion, and that is let it go.

[00:20:09] Mike Potter: Just let it go. Nothing is going to be perfect. you can’t plan for things to be perfect. It will not happen. I guarantee it. I’ve been doing this 10, 10 plus years if you include the virtual MacStocks during COVID. but, nothing is going to be perfect. Yes, you should always try to put out the best show that you can.

[00:20:31] Mike Potter: You know, don’t, don’t say, “Well, it’s not gonna be perfect so I’m not gonna try.” No, try your hardest. Do your darnedest to make sure that it’s the best show that you can. But just realize things will go wrong. Speakers will cancel. attendees won’t have registered. They’ll show up thinking they’ve registered, but they haven’t registered.

[00:20:49] Mike Potter: cameras will fail. Recordings won’t get made. you- here’s a real one. You may need to ask your dad to rush someone to the emergency room.

[00:20:57] Jeff Sieh: Oh my gosh

[00:20:58] Mike Potter: everybody’s okay. [00:21:00] Everybody’s okay. That’s the important thing. it- but I often joke with folks, but it’s true. If it can go wrong, it will, and you just have to accept that, understand that, but knowing that nothing w- look, you do a live show, right?

[00:21:19] Mike Potter: Anyone who does a live show knows that it will not be perfect. It can’t be perfect. if you wanna do perfect, pre-record it and edit it and all that. But, when, when you’re… Th- this is essentially a live stream to an in-person audience without cameras, right? You’re you’re going, you’re going live to those who are in attendance, and things will go wrong.

[00:21:42] Mike Potter: so that’s, maybe that, maybe that is the hardest lesson to learn because you want it to be perfect. You want it to be absolutely the best, most memorable thing that you can put on, but it won’t be

[00:21:53] Jeff Sieh: Yeah.

[00:21:54] Mike Potter: And it’s okay. it’s okay.

[00:21:56] Jeff Sieh: striving perfection but knowing that you’re not gonna be perfect I think is the [00:22:00] right attitude. And like I could s- I mean, there was stuff y- I can’t even go back and think. I’m sure there was something at this where there was a tech issue or s- you know, but I can’t remember it because the experience was so good.

[00:22:11] Jeff Sieh: Like, it didn’t matter, right? Like, I, I just, I’m, I’m trying to think of like, do I even remember anything that didn’t work? I, I’m sure there was, but I don’t remember it.

[00:22:19] Mike Potter: Yeah. Our job is when something goes wrong to To fix it, to repair the problem, to, smooth things over behind the scenes so that you don’t know that it happened. it will go wrong, but hopefully you don’t notice. Sometimes, sometimes folks do, but y- gosh, you know, the MacStock community is so amazingly awesome.

[00:22:42] Mike Potter: They’re, they’re so forgiving. If even e- even a, a big thing can go wrong, but they just roll with it, too. You know? They, they know that We’re doing the best we can. They understand that, and, I think that’s what makes it such a, a wonderful experience for everyone

[00:22:58] Jeff Sieh: Yeah. Very, very cool

[00:22:59] Zac Brown: [00:23:00] agree. something I’m gonna ask our audience who are here live with us today, what is the community that you feel the most at home in? Is it online or off? And we’d love to know, you know, really what makes that work for you

[00:23:12] Jeff Sieh: It’s really funny when I thought about this question for myself, is because, I think I’m, um,what do they call it? Ambivert, where I, I love to speak. I love to go on stage. I love to talk with people. I love to do this show.

[00:23:24] Jeff Sieh: but I don’t get my energy from doing that. I get excited and, and I- I’m stoked to do it, but it is draining, and it was so nice to have a train trip back from MacStock from Chicago. We could take it all the way back to Longview, and it was just… It was relaxing, and it was nice. I need to decompress, right?

[00:23:40] Jeff Sieh: So, I think I feel m- most at home in at home, but I s- if I had to stay at home, I wouldn’t be able to, you know, I would go bonkers, right? So I think it’s that weird dichotomy, I think, with myself

[00:23:53] Zac Brown: the pendulum

[00:23:54] Jeff Sieh: Yeah, exactly. And we’ve got people who already answered. We’ve got some amazing people. Before we get into this next section, I wanna do a shout-out.

[00:23:59] Jeff Sieh: [00:24:00] Megan, of course, yeah, she’s a, also an event professional, so she’s really, this conversation’s right up her alley. I met Megan when she used to help, run Social Media Marketing World in San

[00:24:09] Jeff Sieh: Diego. and so she, she kept all the trains running on time, did a great job with that, and I know that’s one of her things.

[00:24:15] Jeff Sieh: And we’ve got the amazing founder, CEO, big cheese, Dustin Stout from Magai is here, shouting out. He’s also, late because technically he’s on vacation. I did see some of those vacation pics on, I believe Facebook, Dustin. It looks like you’re having a good time.

[00:24:28] Jeff Sieh: Much deserved, my friend. And Michelle says, “I love off.” So she’s talking about being offline. But the connections are made online, and then the conversation energy comes from those offline meetings. Michelle is one of our, momentum buddies that we met at Lou Mongello’s conference. I totally agree, Michelle.

[00:24:45] Jeff Sieh: And then Megan says, “It’s pretty equal, but it depends.” In person is her jam. Nothing beats face-to-face. ” I even did my master’s thesis on the topic.” Now, see, I didn’t even know that, that you were… Man, I knew she was smart, but I didn’t know she was, like, super smart. and then [00:25:00] Andrew says, “Online, I get to meet people from all over the place.”

[00:25:03] Jeff Sieh: Yeah, I, the technology that I can broadcast and pull up people’s comments and have conversations, I am just blown away by. but I wanna get into this I think you called it, and I’ve heard it before, is the, the hallway track that happens at a conference. and what, why is that something, that, you know, people come back for?

[00:25:23] Jeff Sieh: you know, at MacStock, you could go to any conference, get slides and sessions, but, but you, people have come back for 10 years. Like, some people have been there every year to MacStock. And, I, I just think, like, I had con- great conversations with people, and, I know community is something that every creator is chasing right now, but nobody really talks about how to build it.

[00:25:40] Jeff Sieh: So this hallway track, the conversations that happened between the sessions, and you had, one of the things when I talked about, like, how well run it was, is I never felt rushed, and I never felt like I was missing anything either. So I think you brought in space for people to breathe and have that time.

[00:25:57] Jeff Sieh: you actually broke for dinner, and then we would come [00:26:00] back, and a lot of times there was another session. Like, you made it so it was very, had this unstructured in-between time.

[00:26:06] Jeff Sieh: but how do you design for that? How do you design for something that you don’t actually, other than seeing a space on the schedule, that you don’t actually, like, have something to do?

[00:26:15] Mike Potter: Okay, talk about lessons learned over 10 years. That is one that I, I, I won’t say the hard way, but it is a lesson that I’ve learned, and it’s often… You know, often the lessons that I’ve learned come from the feedback I get from the attendees, and one of the, the bits of feedback I received very early on and wasn’t necessarily able to adopt right away is to give them more time in between sessions.

[00:26:41] Mike Potter: So how do I design for something like that? Well, I guess I should say some- somewhat flippantly, I don’t. I don’t design for it, or I, I let the, the attendees design that time and how they want to use it. But, what I am doing now [00:27:00] is, as you rightly pointed out, I’m giving them more of that time. and I’ve learned throughout the years that that time in between sessions is so incredibly valuable to them.

[00:27:12] Mike Potter: yes, it’s valuable to me because it gives me a little bit more time to get the next presenter ready and make sure everybody’s comfortable and, oh, do you have everything you need? So the behind-the-scenes MacStock stuff gets taken care of during that time. But for the attendees, it gives them that opportunity to unwind, to stretch, to engage with each other, to, pick up conversations that they started a couple hours earlier and now they see each other again and they continue that conversation.

[00:27:37] Mike Potter: and in some cases, Chuck Joiner with Mac Voices, I would catch him out of the corner of my eye recording interviews with people in the back corner during that in-between time, which, you know, if you know Chuck Joiner, that’s, that’s what he does. so I’ve learned throughout the years to give people more of that, and that’s what I very purposely tried to do this year.

[00:27:58] Mike Potter: In fact, for the first [00:28:00] time in 10 years, lunch was 90 minutes every day. It wasn’t 60 minutes, and very early on it was 30 minutes, very early on, but it’s 90 minutes, and that really, I think, helped people a lot. It- they could, they could get away. If, if they just wanted to get away, they could get away.

[00:28:18] Mike Potter: They could go back to their room. They could spend some time on the phone with family, back home or back… you know, call the office or what have you. So that, for that purpose, it’s important, but also just walking up and hearing the conversations taking place and how folks would dip in and out of these conversations, in that available time and even bounce from table to table during lunch.

[00:28:41] Mike Potter: You know, we had those rounds in the lunchroom, and I would see people get up and move to another table to join a conversation that they overheard and, and wanted to take part in. So, giving people more time, giving them, let’s see, what do we do? We have 15 minutes between 45-minute sessions [00:29:00] and a half an hour between the 90-minute sessions.

[00:29:02] Mike Potter: And I think any more than that would be too much, and I found that less than that isn’t quite enough. So- To Zac’s question earlier, I guess that’s probably one of the lessons I learned is just give people more time, to have those organic unscripted conversations that take place in the hallway or the hallway track.

[00:29:23] Jeff Sieh: And Zac, this, before you a- I know you wanna ask this question, but I wanted to go down this, once again, rabbit hole, ’cause I love to do this. the thing that I noticed, a couple things, just so people know, understand what, what it was like. It was MacStock, you know, was, was four days, including the, the Ecamm one at the beginning, the, the MacStock edition.

[00:29:39] Jeff Sieh: But on the days that we broke for lunch, we actually just left the room, went over to another room, and it was set out, and it was a spread, and you had those round tables we would sit to. I’ve been at places where there’s table talks, but the way you made it so easy to go right to lunch and sit down with your friends and, and find new ones was so easy and so good.[00:30:00]

[00:30:00] Jeff Sieh: I really liked that. I really… Some of the bigger conferences, and I understand why they do that, ’cause it wouldn’t be feasible to do. But be able to take the, the group and move them together as a, a, a lunch group and sit down together, really, really smart, really, really cool, that you don’t get in the big conferences ’cause everybody just scatters and then they come back for the next session.

[00:30:18] Jeff Sieh: The other thing you don’t get at big conferences is I really like the one-stage track. Because it’s always that, “Oh, what am I missing? Am I gonna have to buy the recordings?” And I have it with when I speak at some of those. my friends, like Lou and I were s- gonna be, uh, against each other at…

[00:30:35] Jeff Sieh: We’re speaking at the same time, basically. so our friends, like if Zac was here, he’d have to pick who he wants to go, and of course Lou’s gonna be disappointed ’cause everybody’s gonna come to mine. But, no, that’s not how it works. But, you don’t have that decision, and, like, that’s what we do at Ecamm, too.

[00:30:48] Jeff Sieh: It’s all, it’s a single track when they do the, their creator camp. So there’s really something to be said about these smaller one-track conferences that you miss on those big conferences. And so that was, [00:31:00] I just thought was very well done. I really liked the lunches and how you did that. So sorry for the, the rabbit trail, Zac, but I just wanted to

[00:31:06] Mike Potter: Well, well, no, I’m, I’m, I’m glad you mentioned that because sometimes I forget about things that I’ve tried and abandoned, and that is one thing I tried. I completely forgot about that until you brought it up. I did at one point, as MacStock evolved, as I, I mentioned, I started out with 20-minute sessions.

[00:31:24] Mike Potter: Again, I stole that idea from TEDx, but, I’m sorry, borrowed, gently borrowed that idea from TEDx, but it didn’t work. It didn’t work. My, my presenter said, “Look, that’s just not enough time. I wanna be able to delve a little bit deeper into my topic. I wanna be able to give people more information than what the 20 minutes is affording me.”

[00:31:43] Mike Potter: So I said, “All right. Well, let’s try this. whichever speakers would like to do this, you can have 20 minutes for your session, and that’s it. You know, if you just want 20 minutes, there you go. Or you can do 20 minutes plus a deeper dive, and the deeper dive would be a 45-minute session.

[00:31:59] Mike Potter: [00:32:00] So in total, you’d have just a little over an hour for your, session. The 20 minute would be in the morning, the deeper dives would be in the afternoon And that was okay but I found that as more presenters wanted to do deeper dives, I had to counter program them and counter programming them resulted in exactly what you described.

[00:32:21] Mike Potter: People, completely unsure of where they wanted to be and whose talk they wanted to listen to, and, part of the reason the digital pass came about was because I wanted to then record everything so that folks who sat in on one deeper dive could catch the other deeper dive later. and then there are logistical and, and,other issues with doing that because now the one deeper dive is in a small room off to the side, and the other deeper dive is in the main conference center room, and now I need double the equipment to do all the recordings.

[00:32:52] Mike Potter: Ugh, such a mess. So ultimately, I ended up, going back to the single track, and that has itself evolved [00:33:00] throughout the years, but the 90-minute sessions are something that I was able to bring about because we moved to the new conference center at the Holiday Inn, and because we had the bigger rooms, and because the conference center…

[00:33:13] Mike Potter: And again, one of the, the lessons to learn is find good partners when it comes to conference centers because they, you know, they do a great job working with me to make sure that MacStock, comes off the way I want it to come off. And, by moving there, that af-afforded me the opportunity to, now offer 90-minute, what I then called workshops, and have evolved to just calling 90-minute sessions, along with the 45-minute sessions.

[00:33:39] Mike Potter: So yeah, single track, definitely the way to go for, for smaller conferences.

[00:33:44] Jeff Sieh: Loved it

[00:33:44] Zac Brown: I think so much of this comes back to community and growth, you know, individually, in groups. I mean, you were talking about the hallway track. This is genuinely how Jeff and I, you know, became connected. It was those little things, the in-between [00:34:00] that, yeah, the sessions are good, but it’s that in-between stuff.

[00:34:03] Zac Brown: And I think within those, they’re the little traditions that kind of happen year after year. You know, for you, you’ve got little traditions. You know, the T-shirt reveal, evening activities, you know, the, the people that you see. But how much of that community is those small recurring rituals, and how intentional are you about creating them versus letting them just kind of organically happen?

[00:34:24] Mike Potter: Yes.

[00:34:26] Jeff Sieh: That’s right

[00:34:28] Mike Potter: No, that’s not fair. So how much is intentional? Well, certain things are very much intentional because I just, I enjoy them. And, uh, you mentioned the T-shirt again, and the T-shirt reveal is, is something, Not only do I have a great time designing it, as I mentioned, but I also have a great time, hearing people’s reactions to it when they see it for the first time.

[00:34:48] Mike Potter: so the T-shirt reveal is very intentional. It’s something that I, I purposely do every year. And, in fact, I tease the T-shirt design on Mac Voices because, Chuck [00:35:00] Joiner does Road to MacStock every year on, on, um, Mac Voices and does such a great job with it. And he always has me on to, introduce, you know, that year’s MacStock and then to kind of wrap things up before MacStock takes place.

[00:35:12] Mike Potter: And he’s always trying to get me to reveal the T-shirt design. And so, this year, for the first time in, in several years, the mugs were ready before, MacStock. Often I’m picking them up, like, the day before. I have a, a local outfit make them for me and, and very often it’s like, “Okay, they’re ready,” and I’m rushing over there and picking them up and tooling them back over to, to MacStock.

[00:35:34] Mike Potter: But this year they were ready, and I had it in time for my wrap-up episode of, Road to MacStock, so I was able to tease Chuck with not the T-shirt design. Oh, no, it’s on the other side of the… Well, you can’t see it. You can’t see it. It’s on the other side of the mug. So he always tries to find out. But the one thing I do is his partner, Cindy, always wants to know what color the T-shirts are going to be so she can coordinate her outfits for the weekend.

[00:35:59] Mike Potter: [00:36:00] And,Cindy is an amazing volunteer for MacStock every year. And so, uh,I did tell her it was the royal blue this year

[00:36:06] Mike Potter: So

[00:36:06] Mike Potter: that she could do that. But, so the T-shirt reveal, very intentional. Very intentional. The rest of it, I would say is probably, more organic. Uh,Yeah, e- everything happens quite naturally at MacStock in terms of the rituals that, attendees go through.

[00:36:23] Mike Potter: The things that they do outside of what I plan for MacStock is, is all them. They do all the planning for that. And, the evenings out to dinner or, little side events that they put together, that’s, that’s all them.

[00:36:38] Jeff Sieh: Yeah, I

[00:36:38] Mike Potter: all them, so

[00:36:39] Jeff Sieh: we got invited ’cause Jodi came with me ’cause of the train ride, and she got to just chill. but we got invited every night. I never felt like, “Oh, I don’t know what I’m gonna do.” There was always an invitation for somebody, like, “Hey, we’re going out to eat. You wanna come with us?” Or, “Hey, we’re going here.”

[00:36:52] Jeff Sieh: So, like I said, very, very welcoming group. So I wanna get kind of in the brass tacks a little bit about some of the things when you’re coming up with, putting [00:37:00] together a conference or you, you’re mulling that around in your head. I know Dustin from, Magai says, you know, he’s really torn between a single track and a multi-track conference.

[00:37:09] Jeff Sieh: Guess maybe it depends on the tracks, which I would agree with. But I wanna know, like, how do you find your speakers? ’cause, you know, I kinda came in the end around because of Ecamm. Katie knew me enough and said, “Hey, we’ll bring our own speakers, and y- can you be a part of it?”

[00:37:22] Jeff Sieh: And plus, I wanted to take a train ride, and see MacStock. but how do you find your speakers? Is there an audition process? Is there, like, a, “Hey, we’re opening the, you know, next year’s speakers call is going on right now. Submit your application,” yada, yada, yada. How do you get the people, and do you have people come back year after year?

[00:37:38] Jeff Sieh: Like, how do you manage your speakers that you bring to the stage?

[00:37:44] Mike Potter: well, I told you how I found speakers for the very first MacStock. That was off a list of people attending a barbecue. Uh, but every year… Okay, so there are a, a certain core set of speakers who do come back year after year after [00:38:00] year if, if they can make it. Not everyone’s been able to make it every year, but some have presented nearly every year of MacStock, they are folks that people want to hear.

[00:38:10] Mike Potter: So I’m always thrilled to have them back on the schedule again. But in the last few years, I’ve been making a concerted effort to introduce roughly 25 to 30% new speakers, people who have never presented for MacStock stage before. Not, not new to presenting, not new to speaking, but new to MacStock stage, let me put it that way.

[00:38:35] Mike Potter: 25% new, just to kinda keep things fresh and keep new perspectives, Not everybody comes back again, and that’s their choice. but, a lot of them have then become regular presenters themselves, some who are now two or three years into it, and maybe next year they won’t present, you know, because we’re making room for another new batch of presenters on stage.

[00:38:59] Mike Potter: [00:39:00] And I’ve already been kind of cultivating some, relationships with folks I would like to present, people who attended MacStock this year that I think would be amazing presenters, and have kinda put the bug in their ear that, “Hey, why, why don’t you consider submitting to present next year?” ” What do you want me to talk about?”

[00:39:16] Mike Potter: ” Whatever you would like to talk about.” 45 minutes, 90 minutes. the key to me is when someone is passionate about a topic, that’s when you’re gonna get the best presentations. it’s not me telling them what to present on. I come up with a theme every year. I come up with a one-word idea for what their talks might encompass.

[00:39:38] Mike Potter: Like this year’s theme was inspire, which kinda wrapped up all the previous themes of MacStock. But, I give them that, and not everybody adheres to it, which is cool, and that’s fine. but I do want them to come up with a topic that gives them a thrill. like I [00:40:00] said, those are often the best talks and, and that’s, that’s what I want. I want someone to, to come at me with a topic, not come at them with one. So anyway, how do I come up with new ones? it… You know, the last few years, it’s the, the new presenters have come out of MacStock’s own attendees.

[00:40:16] Mike Potter: they’ve built up, well, I don’t wanna say the courage. They’ve built up the, you know, maybe they were a little, a little shy about presenting. Maybe they weren’t quite sure they could be a presenter. but with a little encouragement from myself and, and other presenters and other attendees, they’ve taken a chance, submitted a talk, and, and very often that talk is accepted and, and they find themselves on stage at MacStock.

[00:40:38] Mike Potter: and I think that’s great. I think it’s fantastic to have folks come from within the community because they understand what, what MacStock community is, they understand what their interests are, and, they often knock it out of the park, to the point where people ask, purposely ask for them to, to speak again the next year.

[00:40:59] Jeff Sieh: [00:41:00] That’s awesome. So I wanna follow up with one more question,how do you come up with pricing? I think that’s something that when people start thinking about putting together a conference or even playing with the idea of like, I wanna get an event together, or even like, I wanna meet, do a meetup.

[00:41:14] Jeff Sieh: The, the problem with pricing is the hardest thing, I think, for a lot of people. And I remember when we were sitting across, after you took us on the tour of, Groundhog Day, W- Woodstock, all the, all the scenery there, that when we were sitting across from pizza, you mentioned that the only rule was that you could never lose money that you had with your wife.

[00:41:31] Jeff Sieh: That was, that was, that was the one.

[00:41:32] Jeff Sieh: So That’s right.

[00:41:34] Mike Potter: I can’t lose money with MacStock.

[00:41:36] Jeff Sieh: Do you, how do you set the pricing? ‘Cause that seems like that would be really, really hard. I mean, ’cause I mean, I’ve talked with Lou before, and how much they charge you for like an urn of coffee is bonkers. and trying to factor in all that, did you ever, like, when you first started, I mean, I, I bet the first couple years you’re like, “Oh my gosh, this is gonna be a, a balancing act, try to not to go over budget with this,” ’cause this, this thing happened.

[00:41:58] Jeff Sieh: “Oh, I gotta go out and buy these cables ’cause [00:42:00] I, the AV isn’t working right.” And I mean, all those little things, like how do you set the pricing for your tickets?

[00:42:05] Mike Potter: Okay. Can I go down a slight rabbit hole there for a moment? Because, and I will get to this, I promise. I will. In my long-winded, roundabout way, I will get to answer your question, Jeff. so literally two days ago, my wife and daughter were running around trying to find a USB-C adapter in the house, and my response was, “Every year I buy another handful of these things for MacStock.

[00:42:31] Mike Potter: Every year, because every year I’m looking for USB-C adapters to charge the cameras and run the, you know, whatever. Every year. Why can we not find one? There are boxes of MacStock stuff in the foyer of our house right now. Why can we not find a USB-C adapter?” Because I literally just bought four for MacStock.

[00:42:50] Mike Potter: And then I found the four from last year that I bought. So yes, there’s a- there’s always little things like that because you, e- especially the week before, I don’t know if this is the, [00:43:00] the right way to describe it, but I’m going through all the equipment, make sure I, I have everything, and then I’ll panic buy something like USB-C adapters.

[00:43:08] Mike Potter: You know, because I’m like, “Okay, we can’t, we can’t get there and not have a USB-C adapter. I don’t want to be running out to whatever store trying to find them, let alone find a quality one versus one that’s gonna burst into flames as soon as we plug it in at, at MacStock,” you know? So yeah, there’s that.

[00:43:24] Mike Potter: But pricing. So the key is, again, working with the conference center. how are you being charged for hosting your event at that conference center? They all work differently. Very early days, the, the community college where we hosted MacStock worked entirely differently than the way that the, the Holiday Inn Elara Conference Center works right now.

[00:43:47] Mike Potter: So first and foremost, once you sign that contract, Well, before you sign that contract, you gotta know how it’s, how it’s gonna work. How are they pricing the weekend? And- Then try to [00:44:00] estimate how many attendees you’re gonna have, and how is that going to break down per attendee just to have them walk through the door.

[00:44:07] Mike Potter: Just to have them come in, how much is it gonna cost to have, Timmy and Tommy and Jane and, Joanne and Kelly, have them all walk through the door? What is it gonna cost me if I have this many people attend, and if I have this many people attend, and what is my break-even point on just the conference center?

[00:44:24] Mike Potter: Okay, cool. How much is it gonna cost to feed them? You know, and when you, when you look at those kind of things and how conference centers price things, yes, there’s a per plate cost, but then there’s also the service charges on top of it, and there’s the sales tax on top of it. So, you gotta work all that into the equation.

[00:44:40] Mike Potter: How much is it gonna cost to walk in through the door? How much is it gonna cost to feed them? I’m feeding them lunch every day, boom, boom, boom. Okay, now I have this cost. How much is the T-shirt? How much is the swag that I’m gonna give you know, so there’s all these fixed costs that you have to kind of determine first before you can even

[00:44:58] Jeff Sieh: Right

[00:44:59] Mike Potter: figure out the [00:45:00] pricing.

[00:45:00] Mike Potter: Now you have this, this lump sum that represents the, in sum total, what it’s gonna cost to have Jane Smith walk through the door. Cool. from there I can then determine pricing, and one thing that was very important to me this year is to with prices going up the way they are, to try my best to keep things in line with what pricing has been the past couple years.

[00:45:27] Mike Potter: because I know that it, it’s not cheap to come to MacStock when you take into account transportation, whether by train or plane or automobile. Also filmed in Woodstock. Uh, see how I worked

[00:45:39] Jeff Sieh: yeah, it was great. That was funny

[00:45:40] Mike Potter: yeah, I know. so it, it costs money to go there. It costs money to stay at the, the hotel. You know, it costs money on the road if you are driving.

[00:45:48] Mike Potter: You know, all these things. So I take into account that. I take into account, my price increases. And this year I did have to raise prices a little bit, but I tried to keep the price [00:46:00] increase minimal, and I raised them by 50 bucks. That’s it. 50 bucks to cover really ultimately what was an increase in the cost of food.

[00:46:09] Mike Potter: That was it. It was, is the food increase, that,

[00:46:11] Jeff Sieh: Yeah.

[00:46:12] Mike Potter: that $50 covered. So yeah

[00:46:15] Jeff Sieh: Me- Megan Powers says, that, coffee, ’cause she’s done a lot of events. She goes, “Coffee is more expensive than gas or oil.”

[00:46:23] Mike Potter: It

[00:46:23] Mike Potter: is.

[00:46:23] Jeff Sieh: you, when you price

[00:46:24] Mike Potter: is

[00:46:25] Jeff Sieh: like

[00:46:25] Mike Potter: Okay, and, and, you know, if, if anybody from the Holiday Inn is listening to this, I, you know, I just wanna tell you how much I appreciate everything that they do to help make the weekend a success. But one thing that the culinary staff does, and I’ll give a shout-out to Steve, And Mario. Steve and Mario both, amazingly generous with their time and, efforts to assure a good time for all my attendees. But, yes, we do get the urns of coffee out in the morning, but then we have lunch, right? And one of the things at lunch is coffee and tea. And it has been [00:47:00] said to me, and I won’t say who said this, but they’re like, “Well, you paid for this.

[00:47:02] Mike Potter: We’re just gonna move it into the other room.” So I’ve benefited from the fact that I haven’t had to refill those urns and pay again for another, round of coffee because we have the coffee from lunch that was fresh and was otherwise gonna be dumped. And i- they said, “Hey, you know, we’ll, we’ll move it over there.”

[00:47:20] Mike Potter: And then the other thing is,desserts. The desserts from lunch, they always move them

[00:47:23] Mike Potter: over into the room.

[00:47:24] Jeff Sieh: That’s right.

[00:47:25] Mike Potter: So cookies, brownies, we’ve had cheesecake moved

[00:47:28] Mike Potter: over, and then people have something to snack on in the afternoon. So, you know, their point of view is, I’ve paid for it, so why not put it into the other room where people can continue to enjoy it?

[00:47:38] Mike Potter: And so having a c- a conference center that is willing to work with you and, give your attendees the best experience possible and, and seemingly not be out to just nickel and dime you for every single thing that you’re asking for is incredibly valuable.

[00:47:54] Jeff Sieh: you could tell the relationship that you had with, the hotel was, was awesome. and bless you [00:48:00] that you had coffee throughout the day. I hate it when they pull it, like, 15 minutes. Like, you have it, like, there, and then there’s a rush, and then it goes away. I’m, I was so thankful that I could go and get coffee all day.

[00:48:11] Jeff Sieh: So, very, very cool. We’re getting kinda close on time, but I ha- I know Zac has one more question. But I did wanna, before we, uh, move on, to make sure you guys know that we are so thankful for Ecamm, who sponsors the show. You can find out more about them at ecamm.com/jeff. Use code JEFF15 to save 15% on your first purchase.

[00:48:28] Jeff Sieh: And also, camp’s coming up in September, the big three-day, camp, and Mike’s gonna be there. Zac needs to be there. ecamm.com/camp. It’s gonna be amazing. Michael Hyatt,Pat Flynn, Paul Gowder, tons of other people, Doc Rock, Katie Fawkes, all the, all the cool people and I can come to, uh, are gonna be there.

[00:48:45] Jeff Sieh: so it’s gonna be awesome, so go check it out, ecamm.com/camp. Zac, take it away, ’cause I know we have, we’re, we’re short on time, and this was a really important question I know you wanted to ask

[00:48:54] Zac Brown: Yeah. You know, Mike, this conference, it’s one weekend a year. It’s not a lot of time, but [00:49:00] your community have to s- has to survive the other, you know, weeks throughout the year. What does keeping people warm and engaged between events actually look like for you, like practically

[00:49:11] Mike Potter: Okay. So first, don’t listen to me, right? Because

[00:49:15] Jeff Sieh: Well, it’s a little late now. It’s a little late

[00:49:18] Mike Potter: my audience, my audience, the MacStock audience, the MacStock attendees Because I assume you’re asking this question from the standpoint of someone else who might be doing this type of thing, right? Is that what you mean? Or are you strictly looking at, at it from my perspective?

[00:49:31] Mike Potter: So, all right. From my perspective, again, I’m gonna use this word lucky in that, we all have a very common interest, a common bond if you will, which is the Apple ecosystem and the Apple products and, and a strong interest in getting the most from those products and, and learning as much about them as we can.

[00:49:51] Mike Potter: And those kind of conversations that start at MacStock have organically continued in the days and weeks and [00:50:00] months after, to the point where people have formed new businesses, they’ve started podcasts. There was a podcast I learned about, I had no idea that they started this up, but two people I would not have thought would be doing a podcast together are now doing a podcast together because they had the idea at MacStock last year and decided to, go through with it.

[00:50:18] Mike Potter: So the, engagement of the MacStock audience is, to throw this word back out there again, very organic and natural. They want to stay engaged with each other, and they do. but if I had to list one thing

[00:50:34] Mike Potter: Other than that common thread that holds everything together, and I guess, I guess part of that would be me, right? I’m, I’m one– I’m the common thread that keeps the MacStock audience together throughout the year. but be true to yourself. the moment that you try to copy what’s worked for someone else, you kind of cease to be the person who started that thing that people are coming back for year after year. So, for example, if I, if I suddenly [00:51:00] started blasting out daily missives on social media, people would say, “Who did Mike hire?” Because it’s not me. I don’t do that. so folks know who I am. They know how I interact with them, and if things were to change, I think people would question it. So, I think it’s super important to engage your audience, to keep them engaged the way that you would like to be engaged.

[00:51:22] Mike Potter: And I kind of said that earlier, in terms of, you know, put on the conference that you want to attend, but you also want to engage people the way that you would want to engage. for example, I don’t like to be overwhelmed with information. I don’t like to have too much thrown at me. I just signed up for a new piece of software and they’re sending me two or three emails a day.

[00:51:44] Mike Potter: I’m like, I- this is just too much, you know? And that’s not the kind of thing that I enjoy. And so because I don’t enjoy it, I don’t do that to the MacStock audience. So if someone signs up for the MacStock newsletter, they’re gonna get newsletters when it’s important. They’re not [00:52:00] gonna get overwhelmed with stuff, just because I feel like staying in contact.

[00:52:04] Mike Potter: I do try to be active on Mastodon to the minimal extent that I am. But, you know, like I said, if, if, if I suddenly changed how I did things because I saw somebody else do it and because I thought that’s the way I should be doing it, people would question if I were still doing it.

[00:52:23] Jeff Sieh: Yeah

[00:52:25] Mike Potter: So be true to yourself.

[00:52:26] Mike Potter: I think that’s important. or at least in my perspective, it’s important to keep my audience engaged because they know that when they do reach out to MacStock, they’re reaching out to me. They’re talking to me. Even if they use the contact form, they very often start with, “Hi, Mike,” because they know that I’m gonna be the one who gets that message.

[00:52:45] Mike Potter: So, as long as I am… This is gonna sound corny. As long as I am me and I try to be me and I, and I stay true to who I am and what I want MacStock to be, I think that helps keep the audience engaged. But that common interest and [00:53:00] that common thread that, that holds everything together is ultimately the, the Apple ecosystem and people wanting to, continually learn and learn from each other and, and I think that’s, that’s how they kind of naturally stay engaged.

[00:53:13] Mike Potter: Wow, that was a rat hole. Did I answer your question, Zac?

[00:53:16] Jeff Sieh: I s-

[00:53:16] Zac Brown: Yes, that was amazing

[00:53:17] Jeff Sieh: I think that, the, the whole be true to yourself, ’cause I think about the conferences that I love and I will go to every year, you know, Ecamm Creator Camp, not just ’cause they sponsor the show, but because it’s like you mentioned before, the community inside of there is so good.

[00:53:30] Jeff Sieh: and then I, and, he’s here, and he’s gonna give me a hard time, but Lou Mongello’s conference,so it’s the same kind of story, Mike, is like, he, he built the podcast that he wanted to listen to. He built the conference because he would go home from a conference and have all these things, and nothing would happen, and so he created momentum to keep the momentum going throughout the year, and he does a great job with that.

[00:53:49] Jeff Sieh: So I, I’m, I totally, be who you are, and people are attracted to you for a reason, and they’re gonna be attracted to the event you put together for that same reason, so I think that’s [00:54:00] really, really key.

[00:54:00] Mike Potter: I, you just triggered a, a thought in my head, but, a friend of mine recently counseled me, over pizza actually, of a way that I can incorporate a few ideas of mine into MacStock to keep the momentum going. and it’s actually an idea I’ve had for a while, and I didn’t even think of tying it into MacStock.

[00:54:18] Mike Potter: But thanks to this a, a little bit of advice, I’m actually going to incorporate it into MacStock as a way to try to keep the community going. Initially, it’s gonna be my own effort, my own thing to put out there, and you can tell I’m kinda like beating around the bush here because I’m not ready to announce it.

[00:54:36] Mike Potter: But, it, it’s, it’s something that I’m excited about and I think will bring a little extra value to the community, and I’m hoping that other presenters, other people who, have participated heavily in MacStock will want to participate in this as well and kinda be this, this little offshoot of MacStock that kinda keeps things together throughout the rest of the [00:55:00] year.

[00:55:00] Mike Potter: So yeah, it, it is… There’s al- there’s always something rattling around in this empty skull of mine up, up here. And, you’ll find ideas that are either shared with me or I have on my own five, six years ago finally getting implemented because I have the opportunity to do it, and the workshops are one of them.

[00:55:19] Mike Potter: You know? it’s something I wanted to do for a long time and finally got the opportunity to, and I, and I did. So yeah, there, there’s, there’s stuff going on.

[00:55:28] Jeff Sieh: Yeah.

[00:55:28] Mike Potter: stuff going on

[00:55:30] Jeff Sieh: And, and I wanna encourage people too, you don’t have to like, “Hey, I’m just gonna start an event.” Like start small, do a mastermind that can lead into a meetup, that can lead in… ‘Cause if you look at Mike’s path, that’s kind of the same way. And even with Lou, he would do meetups at Walt Disney World, and then they, people wanted him to talk about Disney.

[00:55:44] Jeff Sieh: And I mean, so you see these, you know, you don’t have to go to 100 miles an hour right away. Start small. that’s what I’m planning on doing. That’s what I think a lot of my friends are star- are going to do too. So Mike, this has been amazing, you guys are interested in, MacStock for next year, make sure you sign up for the newsletter.

[00:55:59] Jeff Sieh: go [00:56:00] find Mike everywhere you can. Mike, where can people find you, by the way? You’ve mentioned podcasts, all this thing. Where can people find out more about all the things Mike Potter?

[00:56:09] Mike Potter: All the things Mike Potter, huh? Well, as I mentioned, I’m not super active on social but you will find me on Mastodon. that is, you ready for this? tooting.ninja, /MacStockexpo and, uh, tooting.ninja/forMacguysonly. I needed a, a cool fun name for my server so I, I registered tooting.ninja. And, so that’s, that’s my Mastodon profile.

[00:56:32] Mike Potter: And then of course you can find me on YouTube, youtube.com/fmeotv and, youtube.com/MacStock are where you’ll find me. And that’s about it.

[00:56:44] Jeff Sieh: Cool. Uh, we’ve got some, we even have some of your speakers showing up. Paula showed up saying, “Happy birthday, Jeff.” Thank you so

[00:56:49] Jeff Sieh: much, Paula. Yeah, she did a great job, as one of the speakers

[00:56:52] Jeff Sieh: there.

[00:56:52] Jeff Sieh: In fact, it was awesome. she’s one I got, uh, for this show coming up, and also, Mike was last week, Mike Schmitz.

[00:56:58] Jeff Sieh: he did a great job as well. [00:57:00] So, Conor Brown, I mean, not Conor Brown, Zac Brown. Sorry. Sorry. It was, uh, uh, I did the thing. Zac Brown, where can we find out more about all things Zac Brown?

[00:57:11] Zac Brown: You could find me over at Magical Kingdoms. No, I’m just kidding. you can follow me @zackbrowncreative on the socials. you can check out my podcast, The Zac Brown Show, and buy my new book, An Accidentally Education: What I’ve Learned So Far. Lots of little things going on, all all the Zac Brown stuff.

[00:57:27] Jeff Sieh: And I, and his book is worth the read, folks, so go check that out. You can get it on Kindle now as well, which is amazing. But thank you guys so much. Thank you for for all the birthday wishes. yeah, Lou’s conference is coming up, too. I think there’s still some tickets left, so a shameless plug for, Momentum, and of course Creator Camp, where you can find out, more about Ecamm at camp.

[00:57:47] Jeff Sieh: And with that, thank you guys for the amazing time, the great comments, because, you know, we always have [00:58:00] Thank you so much everybody. We will see you guys next time. Have a great weekend. God bless

SHOW TRANSCRIPT

This transcript is automatically generated by Descript.  Any errors or omissions are unintentional.

[00:00:00] Mike Schmitz: personal knowledge management is a fairly new, I would say, s- like, sub-niche of productivity. basically, you- you’ve got all these, these notes and ideas. How do they connect? And I think a lot of people get stuck in, like, that big graph view and looking at all the connections, you know, murder board style.

[00:00:15] Mike Schmitz: This is all- everything I’ve ever created and how it connects. That’s kinda pointless to me. the creativity flywheel framework that I alluded to earlier, the key piece of that is the, is the last piece. You create something from the component pieces. Hello, folks. Welcome to Creator News Live. I’m Jeff Sieh, and you’re not

[00:00:38] Paul Gowder: And I’m Paul Gowder, and this is the show that keeps you up to date on what’s happening in the world of the creator economy and so much more

[00:00:44] Jeff Sieh: You ever finished something with AI and quietly wondered if it was even yours anymore? Maybe you feel like you’re either supposed to be all in on these tools or a proud holdout with no room in between. And to be honest, do you have 100 notes and highlights saved [00:01:00] somewhere that you have never once gone back to and used?

[00:01:03] Jeff Sieh: If that sounds familiar, then this is the show for you

[00:01:06] Paul Gowder: Our guest today is Mike Schmidt, the founder of Practical PKM, co-host of the Focuses and Bookworm podcast, and the creator of Life HQ, a done-for-you Obsidian vault, which I really, really want to hear more about. Mike helps deep thinkers get more out of their notes and ideas, and today he’s sharing where AI actually belongs in your creative workflow, how to build a second brain that makes you sharper, and why your taste is the one thing that no machine can replace

[00:01:32] Jeff Sieh: So sit back, clear your schedule, clear your mind to get ready for this week’s episode of Creator News Live [00:02:00] That’s right, it’s Mike Schmitz on the show today. This is gonna be a fun one. Mike, I’m sorry, you, this is the first time you’ve experienced your own theme song like that, so, uh, apologies in advance. but what makes this show possible is our amazing friends over at Ecamm. They are the ones who sponsor the show.

[00:02:15] Jeff Sieh: You can find out more at ecamm.com/jeff. Save 15% by using code JEFF15 on your first purchase. They were the ones who sponsored camp. We’ve got another big one coming up at the end of September, in Portsmouth, New Hampshire, so make sure you guys check that out at ecamm.com/camp, to find out all about that.

[00:02:34] Jeff Sieh: It’s gonna be amazing. I can’t wait. Paul’s gonna be there. I’m gonna be there. So many people are gonna be there, so make sure to check that out. All right, so I wanna ask the audience, be honest, where are you with your AI in your creative work right now?

[00:02:48] Jeff Sieh: Are you all in? Are you dabbling? Or is it a hard no? Like, “I don’t wanna hear about AI anymore ever again.” there’s those people out there. So I wanna know, all in, dabbling, or [00:03:00] hard no, I’m done with AI and everything. So let us know wherever you’re watching from. But Mike, you wrote that AI isn’t a switch, it’s a dial.

[00:03:07] Jeff Sieh: So unpack that for a creator who feels like the only options are all in or all out. It seems like there’s this just polarization that happens. So what does turning that dial actually look like day to day for you?

[00:03:20] Mike Schmitz: Yeah, that polarization, that’s a, a good way to, to describe it. Really, it, it was just me getting frustrated with, the two extremes that I, I see online and sort of a general uneasiness, like there’s gotta be some middle ground. and I, and I think you kinda described a little bit already the, the two ends of the, the spectrum.

[00:03:37] Mike Schmitz: There’s the, the people who are all in with AI. These are like the LinkedIn AI bros, like “Claude is making me $100,000 a year on its own. I don’t have to touch it.”

[00:03:48] Jeff Sieh: Right

[00:03:49] Mike Schmitz: And then there are the people who are the, the purists, and this is I think a lot of creators because we think that our ability to create is, We wanna believe it’s unique, [00:04:00] we wanna believe it’s special, and I believe that, that it is, but it’s also I think a bit of a formula. Uh,we can get into kinda like my whole history with this, but at one point I actually thought that I was not creative, that I just didn’t have that creative gene. So I had to kinda wrestle through that and realize that, oh, if I collect good dots, then my brain is kinda connecting that stuff and there’s, a good output that, that comes from that.

[00:04:24] Mike Schmitz: And so I think there’s a middle ground where we are using AI to do the things that don’t require us specifically in the creative process, but then also we’re protecting what actually we bring to the table, which is our, our taste and our, our voice. I think that’s probably a pretty good intro. Let me know where you wanna go from there ’cause there’s a million different directions.

[00:04:49] Jeff Sieh: I wanted to, I wanted to dive into that a little bit because you mentioned, and we talk about this a lot, and I even in my presentations, one of the, my big themes is you’re created by the Creator to be creative. I think everybody’s creative. [00:05:00] I, I love how you, kinda went into that. And I think it was, was it Steal Like an Artist?

[00:05:05] Jeff Sieh: What was the book that made you really think about that? Was that it? Because I bought it. I have to read it now, so that’s the thing.

[00:05:12] Mike Schmitz: Yeah, it was Steal Like an Artist by Austin Kleon. and I guess just briefly to tell the story, I was in college and I was writing songs on my guitar, and then I would, like, go get a burrito with my friends and hear a song on the radio and, and realize that I had ripped off a chord progression or a melody line from some other song that I was already familiar with.

[00:05:31] Mike Schmitz: And I felt like I just don’t have what these other people have. They’re able to get lightning in a bottle and the, the idea just comes fully formed. Somehow they’re able to synthesize this and, like, they get this… They, they’re creating out of nothing. and I was like, “I just, I just can’t do that. All I can do is kind of remix things.”

[00:05:50] Mike Schmitz: And then I read Steal Like an Artist by Austin Kleon, where he’s talking about your job as the artist, really is to connect preexisting dots in new and interesting ways. But when you create something new, you’re [00:06:00] connecting these dots, the dots themselves are not completely original. And that’s kind of what gave me permission to, to create because before that I was like, “Well, I can’t just make something out of nothing like everybody else can.

[00:06:11] Mike Schmitz: I guess I’m kind of, like, stealing stuff.” And then when he’s like, “Steal like an artist,” I’m like, “Oh, okay. So that is the process. Creativity is a formula.” and I kind of built a career out of that. I, uh, left the family business, was working with Asian Efficiency for a while, and at one point I was running the Productivity Show podcast, which published every week.

[00:06:29] Mike Schmitz: I was, in charge of the blog. We had a new article that went out every week, so I was writing half of those and managing, like guest articles the other half. I was creating a completely new productivity video course and publishing it in the community every single month, and I just did it, you know?

[00:06:43] Mike Schmitz: And then as I was thinking through, like, how am I able to do this? I’ve kind of run with this idea, steal like an artist, but there’s got to be a system below this. That’s where the, the creativity flywheel framework, came from

[00:06:54] Jeff Sieh: Very, very cool. And yeah, we’ll get into that in, in just a little bit. Yeah. Very, very cool

[00:06:58] Paul Gowder: I need to go read that book too, ’cause I, when I [00:07:00] first started photography, I struggled with that same thing, is like e- every photo I take is just a copy of somebody else’s. but so that’s a great idea. in the, Made with Love and AI, you argue that labor though was never the part that was ours, the typing, the drafting, and all the busywork.

[00:07:14] Paul Gowder: And that is freeing, but a little terrifying. So what is it that, in this whole product, what is ours, and how do we protect and make sure that we keep doing what is the thing that makes us us?

[00:07:26] Mike Schmitz: Yeah, so that’s, that’s kind of the thing. Steal Like an Artist, you know, creativity is a formula. So at, at that point, creativity really is like a, a system, okay? And if you’re… I, I’m a systems thinker. worked as an integrator at a digital marketing agency for a while. I, I, I think in systems. So when I, when when that light bulb went on, creativity is a system, I kinda, I realized that I don’t really have to do all of these pieces.

[00:07:48] Mike Schmitz: So when you’re talking about labor in the creative process, typically what you think of is, like, Steven Pressfield, The War of Art. It’s this big battle. I’m gonna go away to the cabin in the woods and write Walden, you [00:08:00] know. A- and that works for some people. I actually, uh, just read a book, How to Try Again by Steve Kam.

[00:08:06] Mike Schmitz: He’s talking about the different creative processes, and he talks about the guy who wrote the James Bond series. He goes to his private island and types every day at a certain time on his gold-plated typewriter. You know, if you’re able to do that, great, but if you’re a solopreneur trying to make a living, get some help.

[00:08:23] Jeff Sieh: Right, right

[00:08:24] Mike Schmitz: And so that’s where, I, I realized that, like, there are so many options for getting help now. One of the big unlocks for me, I mentioned this in the Macstock talk, was I look up to these creators like Ali Abdaal, a YouTuber I really admire, and he cranks out these killer YouTube videos, and it’s like, man, I just can’t, I can’t create like Ali can.

[00:08:44] Mike Schmitz: And then I realize that he’s got a scriptwriter, he’s got a thumbnail person, he’s got a team of editors. He’s got all these people that he is paying to fill these roles, and they’re doing things that are part of his creative system. And I was like, “Hmm, I wonder, is AI good enough [00:09:00] that I could hire it for some specific roles?”

[00:09:02] Mike Schmitz: And, no one, no one thinks that Ali isn’t, isn’t creative, or they’re not, you know, mad at him because he’s pumping out slop because he’s got a team that’s putting together the scripts for him and he’s showing up and reading them. So I, I think the, the real thing that people want is not, you know, is this AI or not, but really, like, is this good or not?

[00:09:22] Mike Schmitz: Is this something that is worth my time to consume this? And people don’t like to be tricked. They don’t, they, they don’t wanna feel like they’ve, they’ve been duped, you know? So I don’t… I think you gotta use it intentionally. You gotta be real about it. You know, I’ve, I’ve used AI in, in these specific ways.

[00:09:38] Mike Schmitz: but ultimately, if it makes the work better, I feel like there’s never been a better time to be a creator. There’s a lot of things that are possible now that weren’t, a couple years ago.

[00:09:50] Jeff Sieh: Yeah. In that same note, I want … This is a great segue. and I actually built it while we were at Mac Stock, so it was, was very, very cool, But AI for me is letting me do [00:10:00] stuff that I have never … That I’ve wanted to do, but I haven’t had time. Like for example, Amy Porterfield, for all of her podcasts and all her episodes, she has like a sheet or a quiz or something like that, that her team puts together for that.

[00:10:13] Jeff Sieh: Never been able to do that. I thought that was a great way. I thought it was a great lead magnet. But now with AI, I was able to do that. So if you guys want to go to jeffsieh.com/cheatsheet, I’ve got like the last five or so, episodes that I’ve done. It’s actually a system now that kicks off as soon as I am done with the show.

[00:10:31] Jeff Sieh: It takes the transcript and it, and it builds this. But it’s also a great little lead magnet now that I’m gonna have for each one of my shows. So jeffsieh.com/cheatsheet. Go kick the tires. Tell me what you think. I wanna know what you guys think about that, and let me know. But this is a perfect example for me of something I’ve always wanted to do, but never been able to.

[00:10:50] Jeff Sieh: On that same note, Mike, you know, the, the thing is, is you talk about in, you kinda keep coming back to this, that AI produces the median. Like it’s just, it’s [00:11:00] the average kinda stuff, because that’s what it’s doing. It’s going and pulling all this stuff, and it produces kind of the, the medium kinda stuff.

[00:11:07] Jeff Sieh: And, and you said the median by definition is average. So if everyone is holding these same tools that spits out competent, but that kind of average work, so how do we stay, unmistakable? And you kinda alluded it to that a little bit before, but how do we practically do that?

[00:11:25] Mike Schmitz: Yeah, you gotta steer it. You know, if you just, if you just let it go, it’s gonna produce the average. It’s gonna keep predicting the next thing in the chain until it just sounds like everything else that’s, that’s out there. But I think your cheat sheet is actually a, a pretty phenomenal example of being intentional about it because you’ve, you’ve got this vision, right, for what you want the, the thing to be, and now if you got some help, you can deliver value in some new and interesting ways.

[00:11:50] Mike Schmitz: AI’s not gonna get to that point where it’s, I think, originating that idea and building that thing for you. Maybe it will. I, I don’t know. A great book on, on AI that really [00:12:00] helped me how to think about it was Co-Intelligence by Ethan Mollick, where he lays out the, the, the options, and this was written a couple years ago.

[00:12:07] Mike Schmitz: He’s like, “This is… On the, on the one end, this is the best it ever gets, and it’s actually kinda useless. And then on the other end is it gains sentience and enslaves the human race.” Those are options, not likely either one of those. The truth is somewhere in the in the middle, so let’s figure it out.

[00:12:26] Mike Schmitz: You know, let, let’s figure out how we can use this intentionally and actually add value to the things that, that we do. and so that’s where, like, as a creative brainstorming partner, I actually think AI is incredible. I, I, I posted something about this on LinkedIn the other day. There was a, there was a specific point.

[00:12:42] Mike Schmitz: You know, I’m actually very introverted. I get exhausted when I’m around other people, but put me in a room where we’re brainstorming and, and I was the product guide agent efficiency. I remember we were down, uh, down in Austin, and we were talking about what are we gonna build this quarter. Like, that energizes me.

[00:12:59] Mike Schmitz: I could [00:13:00] talk about that all day. And so I’m, I’m down there, we’re talking about what we’re gonna do, we’re talking through dinner. I’m staying with a coworker at his apartment, and, at his apartment, he, all of a sudden, he’s very extroverted, turns to me, he’s like, “Mike, I just can’t, I can’t think about this anymore.

[00:13:13] Mike Schmitz: I, I gotta be done for the day.” And I was like, “What? You’re the, you’re the extrovert.” AI is like a creative collaborator that never is, never gonna tap out. It’s, it’s never gonna be, “I’m too tired to throw ideas at you.” And some of the ideas that it gives you are completely off the wall, right? Which is why you can’t just say, “Okay, yeah, run with that,” but, “Okay, uh, you’ve given me 20 different hook ideas, 20 different headline ideas.”

[00:13:36] Mike Schmitz: I’m working on a cohort, and I, like, go back and forth with that. Like, “What do you think about this?” the trick is figuring out, you know, This is good. This isn’t. You know, let’s, let’s drill down deeper in this. So you still gotta, still gotta guide it, but then it just, it continues to generate options.

[00:13:51] Mike Schmitz: And I feel like for a creator, like, that’s the hard part is, is coming up with the options. Give me something to respond to, and then I can make it awesome.[00:14:00]

[00:14:00] Jeff Sieh: Yeah, I think that’s totally true

[00:14:02] Paul Gowder: And you have a, a, a rule that you love, and I think this is so important for a lot of people because they, they get stuck on this part. But you say that, you know, point your AI at your own material for connection. It’s, not a, a blank page for generation. So yeah, explain that a little bit more and why that’s, you know, people get caught in that trap of just starting with a blank page instead of their own work

[00:14:22] Mike Schmitz: Yeah, well, the, the thing that makes AI work is context, right? The bigger the context window, the more valid the response is going to be, and I feel like if you can give it a bank of your own work, your own notes, your own ideas to work off of, of course it’s gonna give you better results when you, when, when it spits something back to you.

[00:14:44] Mike Schmitz: So there’s a bunch of different ways that, that you could take that. One is the, the PKM route, where you’re pointing it at your Obsidian vault. These are all notes and ideas that I’ve, I’ve captured, curated, collected, connected, you know, over the years. I wanna create something new out of [00:15:00] them, These are things that have resonated with me in the past. Side note, I guess, on that, you know, if you’re just piping in everything that you think might be important, I don’t think you’re gonna get the, the same sort of insight from your PKM. I, I use Obsidian, but you don’t have to use Obsidian specifically Bottom line, if you got that, that bank of notes and ideas and you’re just, like, capturing things that you really don’t have that resonance, you don’t have the, you know, the…

[00:15:25] Mike Schmitz: It’s resonating in your soul, like, that piques my curiosity, I’m interested in that thing. It’s just, well, I better hang onto this. I think if you collected a whole bunch of notes and ideas that are just like, “Well, this sounds important, I better hang onto this,” you’re not gonna get the, the creative output from it.

[00:15:40] Mike Schmitz: the other thing, like I’ve, I’ve actually built my own, online tool for this, I call it Creator Bot, and, and the thing that makes this work is it actually builds out a context for, like, your creator business. So I kinda built it because I had a creator business accelerator I was walking a beta group through, and they were having a little bit of trouble keeping up, and I was trying to figure out how [00:16:00] can I scale my, my coaching, basically?

[00:16:02] Mike Schmitz: How can I give people advice when they get stuck? So I built this tool, and it kind of builds out, you know, this is your ideal customer profile, this is your niche, this is my signature product, these are my content buckets, you know, this is my primary attention platform, all those types of things.

[00:16:17] Mike Schmitz: So then when you say, you know, “Give me feedback on my content,” it knows what you typically write about, it knows the angle that you’re taking, it knows the shape of the things that you’re trying to make. And so when it gives you a bunch of options, those are much more relevant options. but yeah, if you just wanna, like, get more out of your notes and ideas, I feel like there’s, there’s some specific pieces that you need there.

[00:16:34] Mike Schmitz: Whether you apply AI to them or not, you’ve gotta have good stuff to work with. I like to think of them as, like, mental Lego bricks. I’ve got five kids, and they– We… The best Christmas gift we ever gave them… I overheard a barista at a coffee shop one time saying they were trying to raise money for college, and they were selling 75 pounds of Legos. And I was like, “Dude, I’ll take them.” So we’ve got all these Legos at, home, [00:17:00] and I was the one who was always follow the instructions, build the castles. Like, I thought I, was good at Lego, and then my kids come, and they’re just, like, building all these insane creations out of absolutely nothing. That’s the me- that’s the creative process, and it’s a muscle, so the more you do it, the better you get at it.

[00:17:14] Mike Schmitz: And then AI, if you apply it intentionally, can, can help you do it faster, do it better

[00:17:18] Jeff Sieh: Yeah. Th- LEGOs are great until you step on them in the middle of the night, and then

[00:17:22] Mike Schmitz: True.

[00:17:23] Jeff Sieh: and then they turn into Satan’s bricks of torment. And I, I’ve lost my religion many times, stepping on those when my kids were at home, in the middle of the night. That was not fun. I wanna bring up some comments here from our amazing chat room.

[00:17:35] Jeff Sieh: so many people saying they were all in on AI. I don’t think anybody said, they weren’t. but I wanted to… Paula Marie Davis says, “All in on AI when powered by human creativity.” She did a great talk, at MacStock, so thanks, Paula, for, for coming around today and chatting with us. But I think that, powered by human creativity, you know, one of the tests for good work is almost human. Like, did the, a person with taste stand behind this and decide what [00:18:00] was good? So how do you actually build that taste, and it, can it be taught, or do people just have it?

[00:18:07] Jeff Sieh: I think that’s a great question when we talk about curating stuff for our… And PKM stands for personal knowledge management, correct? I just wanna make sure for people who

[00:18:15] Mike Schmitz: Yeah, sorry. I should have defined

[00:18:17] Jeff Sieh: That’s good

[00:18:17] Mike Schmitz: and personal knowledge management is a fairly new, I would say, s- like, sub-niche of productivity. basically, you- you’ve got all these, these notes and ideas. How do they connect? And I think a lot of people get stuck in, like, that big graph view and looking at all the connections, you know, murder board style.

[00:18:33] Mike Schmitz: This is all- everything I’ve ever created and how it connects. That’s kinda pointless to me. the creativity flywheel framework that I alluded to earlier, the key piece of that is the, is the last piece. You create something from the component pieces. So you can capture all the right pieces, the things that resonate.

[00:18:52] Mike Schmitz: I think you gotta have something in between capture and, like, I’m actually working with this, so curate is the second phase, and that’s where you bring over the stuff that [00:19:00] really resonates. I capture stuff to a separate inbox. I don’t pipe it straight into, Obsidian because I find that if I come back and I revisit my ideas a week later, a lot of times I’m like, “Well, that was stupid.

[00:19:09] Mike Schmitz: I don’t know what I was thinking.” But sometimes it’s like, “Oh, actually, I’m more excited about that than I was before.” That’s my signal that there’s actually something there. Bring over the good pieces, right? So that’s curate, the second step, and then, um, connect them. So how does this connect to the other things that I’ve, I’ve collected?

[00:19:25] Mike Schmitz: the key inspiration for that, by the way, is How to Read a Book by Mortimer Adler, like, written in the 1960s, I

[00:19:33] Jeff Sieh: Wow. Yeah

[00:19:34] Mike Schmitz: and he talks about the four levels of reading. The top level is what he calls syntopical reading, and that’s where you’re reading a book, and you’re taking the ideas, and you’re lining them up with the other, uh, things from other books that you’ve read.

[00:19:47] Mike Schmitz: So for me, this happened when I read, Atomic Habits by James Clear. Charles Duhigg w- wrote the canonical book on habits, The Power of Habit. He’s got that cue routine reward cycle, right? Everybody’s running with that, “Oh, this [00:20:00] is amazing. This is how habits work” and I was like, “I don’t like that.” It- there’s something off about as soon as I see the cue, I’m a rat in a cage, and the- automatically triggers the routine.

[00:20:08] Mike Schmitz: So then when James Clear talks about there’s actually four steps to that, and like, oh, that makes more sense, but I’m still trying to figure out, like, what, what determines whether we follow through on the thing we wanna do, or we don’t. So then Tiny Habits by BJ Fogg, you know, that he has this, like, Fogg behavioral model, and if the prompt is strong enough, if your motivation’s high enough, it works.

[00:20:27] Mike Schmitz: If it doesn’t, if it’s not, it doesn’t. So all that stuff, like, comes together, and it forms my understanding of habits, right? That’s the four- the fourth level of, of reading and action, and so for me, that’s kinda what happens inside of my Obsidian vault now. But it also happens inside the gray matter between my ears.

[00:20:46] Mike Schmitz: Whether I move anything into Obsidian, whether I connect those notes at all, it’s already happening. So if you were gonna look through my Obsidian vault, you’d be like, “This is a complete mess. Tiago Forte would be [00:21:00] ashamed, like, there’s no para. There’s a whole bunch of orphan notes.” And I’m just kinda like, “I don’t really care.”

[00:21:05] Mike Schmitz: You look at the desks of the really creative people throughout history, they’re a complete mess. It’s not that- They were creative because of the mess, but they get so focused on the generation of something new from the component pieces that they don’t care about the mess. And I do think that eventually you gotta go back and you gotta clean up the mess ’cause it’s distracting.

[00:21:24] Mike Schmitz: But when you’re, when you’re in it, the most important thing is that there’s an output. Now, your original question was about developing the taste. I think if you’ve got that creative system and you are publishing consistently, the taste will come, but you will never get to it until you start publishing consistently.

[00:21:42] Mike Schmitz: You don’t know what you have to say or what you really think about things until there’s that creative output. There’s a famous saying, “Thoughts disentangle themselves through lips and pencil tips.” For me, it’s also clicky keyboards. You know, writing is the basis of everything that I do. All the podcasts, all the YouTube videos, the blog, the newsletter, all that kind of [00:22:00] stuff, it all comes back from that ability to write, which I developed simply by forcing myself to sit down and write.

[00:22:06] Mike Schmitz: I think I am living proof that if I can do it, anybody can do it

[00:22:10] Jeff Sieh: Yeah, so you know what helped me the most was that I n- and I, I’m not bragging, but I kinda am. I have, like, an unbroken for 2,369 days, I think now, of writing in my journal, right? So it could v- but sometimes it’s just a paragraph. Like, don’t think I’m, like, writing, like, the novel. Sometimes it’s just like, “I don’t wanna write.

[00:22:30] Jeff Sieh: This is what I have to do. It’s a pr- I gotta get this done,” kind of a thing. It’s fine, right? But I have that streak. But that writing in my journal gave me the confidence, like, oh, you know what? I can write an email once a week, right? Like, I can do this. Like, it may not be good, but I know that it’s not this big mental, “I’ve gotta write,” because I do it every day.

[00:22:50] Jeff Sieh: And so I think those little… What is it? I think Clear calls them, like, the, the habits that you stack. Like, I have mine, so I can’t unlock my office until I write in my journal, ’cause the button [00:23:00] right there to unlock my office is the, right by the journal button, that I use day one for my journaling. So anyway, so I, I think that’s a great way too if you’re struggling with a habit is find some little piece to do and do it consistently.

[00:23:12] Mike Schmitz: Can we unpack that a little bit? ‘Cause that’s a great example. Like, you writing in your journal, that is the, th- that is creating. That, that is the, the last step of the creativity flywheel. That’s the output that makes that, that work, and that creates the confidence that you can do that in, in other ways.

[00:23:28] Mike Schmitz: Now, if you had AI automatically generate that journal entry for you every day, you’re not gonna develop that skill. You’re not gonna develop that muscle, and you’re not gonna be able to, to write the, the email or whatever, whatever other flavor, uh, of, of writing it that needs to happen. But that doesn’t mean that AI, in my opinion, should not be used in the, the writing process.

[00:23:51] Mike Schmitz: You’ve developed the muscle, right? So now when you sit down to, let’s say you’re gonna write a blog post. I don’t know what I’m gonna write. The blank page stops so many people. [00:24:00] All right, well, give me a bunch of options. What , what are some ideas that I could write about, you know? And one of those is gonna land, and that’s what you, that’s what you write about.

[00:24:08] Mike Schmitz: So that’s an example, I think of, of where to use AI in this process

[00:24:12] Jeff Sieh: Yeah, that’s a great, that’s a great way to think about it. I just think the, it just helped me, and you can go back and trace it, when I started journaling, that’s when I started doing email, and that’s when my list started growing. That’s when I started… I mean, it just, you can trace it all back just to that little thing of doing something very deliberate every day.

[00:24:27] Jeff Sieh: I think that’s, it was a big unlock for me at least.

[00:24:30] Mike Schmitz: And that’s the, that’s the systems at work. You know, every system is really three things: an input, a process, and an output. So this is where I think if you can think in systems, you can look at, this is the input that I, I used, this is the process that it went through, this is the output that I got. You look at that output and you say, “Do I like this?

[00:24:48] Mike Schmitz: Do I not like this? Am I happy with the results that I got? If not, let’s go tweak one of the other things, the input or the process.” And if you just took that approach to using AI instead of just blindly accepting whatever [00:25:00] output it gives you, I feel, it gives you, I feel like you eventually you’re gonna land on an intentional way to use it

[00:25:04] Jeff Sieh: Yeah. Yeah. Great points

[00:25:06] Paul Gowder: All right, with all of that being said, I am curious about this. Is there a part of your process, your writing or whatever else, that you don’t let AI into?

[00:25:14] Mike Schmitz: I don’t know. I, I, I want to be curious. I want to experiment. so I’ll, I’ll share a recent workflow, which kind of forced me to push those, those boundaries a little bit. for a long time I would not let it write any words for me but I have always wanted to have these 15-minute book review videos, and I realized that I just didn’t have the time to make these.

[00:25:39] Mike Schmitz: I experimented with a couple of them on my main YouTube channel, and they just… It’s not the right thing. I, I’ve talked to, different people who are much better at YouTube than I am, and they basically said, “You should start a secondary channel for these. it’ll help the algorithm find the audience, and, and that’s the only way to get successful.”

[00:25:56] Mike Schmitz: Okay. Well, I guess I just don’t have time to do that then because, [00:26:00] writing these scripts, recording the videos, even if I have an editor who helps me chop ’em up, takes me, like, eight to 10 hours, to do that because I script all of my videos word for word. I do not do outlines. I, I can sit down and have a conversation like this, but if we were re- re- if I turn on record on my camera and I just try to, to chat, it’s gonna be a complete mess.

[00:26:21] Mike Schmitz: It actually saves me time to script all those videos. Okay. So I wanna record these videos on these book reviews. I’ve read the books. I have a really crazy way of taking notes on my books, by the way. I think I’ve got a video where I walk through that, but essentially, I re- always read physical books. I always take notes on my iPhone in MindNode.

[00:26:40] Mike Schmitz: So I take mind map book notes. I have my own emoji coding system where I implement kind of a digital version of Mortimer Adler’s How to Read a Book philosophy. So, like, this is something that sparked an idea. This is a key idea from, or a key argument the author made. this is, you know, an action item.

[00:26:58] Mike Schmitz: This, this blew my mind, all that kind [00:27:00] of stuff. That’s all, like, emoji inside my, my mind map. I bring those into Obsidian, and I have also the markdown version of, of all of those. So I have this big bank of these book notes, and then I also have a podcast where I talk about these books for 90 minutes with a cohost.

[00:27:17] Mike Schmitz: So I have put a whole bunch of work into not just reading the book, but figuring out exactly what I think from that book, talking through everything that I got out of that book on a podcast. And so, what I did is I created a Claude skill, which pulls in my notes from my Obsidian vault. So it’s got my rating.

[00:27:37] Mike Schmitz: It’s got all of my notes. It knows how to interpret my crazy emoji coding system, so it knows from those notes what stood out to me. I also bring in the transcript from the podcast that I recorded, and it looks at only my side of the conversation, but then it writes the script for me. And the first time I did that, I was like, “I can’t read this.

[00:27:57] Mike Schmitz: I didn’t write this.” And then I went [00:28:00] through, and I started editing it, and I realized that actually a lot of this stuff I had said before. These were my original thoughts, even if I didn’t write them in the script. and I went through and I edited the whole thing word for word, and it took me about 45 minutes.

[00:28:16] Mike Schmitz: And I was like, “Oh, okay. Now maybe I can do this consistently. Now maybe I can make the thing I always wanted to make- But I didn’t have time to do it. and so I, I do that, and I’ll, I… The real trick for me with that is I wanna go through and I wanna edit the whole script because I want every word that I deliver to the camera.

[00:28:34] Mike Schmitz: I am not using AI for the video part. I am not using ElevenLabs to generate my voice. It’s me speaking to the person on the other end. I take that responsibility seriously, and I want every word that I say to be authentic. I actually got a chance, this is a little bit of a sidebar, sorry, but I, I got a chance to talk to, James Clear.

[00:28:53] Mike Schmitz: at Craft and Commerce, they have, like, a s- invite-only mastermind the day before. My creator friends have always, [00:29:00] like, been going to that, and I was a little bit jealous. I got invited this year. I was like, “Yes, this is so cool.” And then, we had… There’s a Q&A with James Clear, and I had the opportunity to ask him how he thinks about using AI in the creative process, and I really liked his response.

[00:29:13] Mike Schmitz: Basically, he said it doesn’t make the writing, doesn’t make it faster, but it makes it better. And he talked about how if he could, you know, just use it to, to write a bestselling book, he would, but it doesn’t give him… It doesn’t meet his, his quality bar. He uses it in all sorts of interesting ways, though.

[00:29:28] Mike Schmitz: He’ll generate a paragraph in the style of Ernest Hemingway. He’ll generate a paragraph in some other style, and then he’ll take a sentence from this and a sentence from that, and he’ll pull it all together, and that’s what he publishes, right? That’s, the, the James Clear voice.

[00:29:39] Mike Schmitz: It’s the, it’s in the, the editing, of that. But the, the workflow that I just described, you know, like I said, I really struggled with that because AI is writing these words. How can I possibly show up and say the words that AI is putting in my mouth? but then after I started using it, and again, with the, the example of Ali Abdaal and how he’s got people on his team who are, are working for him and [00:30:00] doing different things, I was like, “I just hired Claude as a scriptwriter, and actually did a pretty great job as a scriptwriter.

[00:30:05] Mike Schmitz: You know, I should give Claude a raise.” I’m not gonna do that, but

[00:30:07] Jeff Sieh: right.

[00:30:08] Mike Schmitz: you know, that was a big unlock for me

[00:30:10] Jeff Sieh: Yeah. It’s funny ’cause, you know, I think about like, y- you know, Fallon and all those guys. They have writer rooms. They have huge writer rooms that they pay, and I’m like, ” Now I have my own.” Like, you mentioned having your, your scripting. What I was able to do for Mac Stock is on the train, I actually…

[00:30:24] Jeff Sieh: I had my script all ready for my, my talk, but I said, “hey, I want you to go get me a version where you’re a late night, host, like, and have a writer room. What’s that like? I wanna have a stand-up comedian you take the same script and write it in that way. Write it as a TED Talk, and then write it as a bunch of…

[00:30:38] Jeff Sieh: that I’ll be speaking in front of a bunch of Mac nerds. What should I do?” And it gave me four versions of my talk, but then I was able to pick and choose, like, some jokes from here and stuff from there. Kinda like what you were talking about, like, James Clear does. And the other, real quick, I wanted to give some people, a, maybe a tool that they can use.

[00:30:53] Jeff Sieh: I am not allowed to buy any more physical books. We have too many, and we would not have anywhere to sleep if I [00:31:00] continued on that path. So I have to buy Kindle books, and what I love about it is there’s a tool called Readwise. So anything I highlight actually goes, and it actually surfaces up again as emails, but it also takes it and put it, puts it to my Notion database.

[00:31:13] Jeff Sieh: So I can go into the book and just pull it in. I can have AI look at all the notes, in that way, and, I think it’s a really great tool. So that’s called Readwise, so make sure you check it out. So, once again, we have amazing comments from our amazing, chat room.

[00:31:28] Jeff Sieh: Paula says, “Huge takeaway for me. I use AI to make it better, not to make it faster.” Great. Great point. I think that’s really good. But I wanna know, ’cause we’re gonna talk about kind of Obsidian building a second brain in this next section.

[00:31:40] Jeff Sieh: Do you guys have a note system or a second brain that you use, or is it a mess? Like type, “Yes, I use it” or “Still a mess” in the comments wherever you’re watching. So, “Yes, I use, uh, it” or “Still a mess,” ’cause we’re gonna be talking about the second brain. but first we have a great question from the, the Disney hotel lady.

[00:31:59] Jeff Sieh: Great question. [00:32:00] What is Obsidian? We’ve talked about this vault thing and Obsidian vaults, and what is it? So first of all, just tell us what it is and, why you are in love with it so much

[00:32:09] Mike Schmitz: Yeah, so Obsidian is essentially a markdown writing app is how I would, describe it. it’s a, it’s a markdown editor. So when you create an Obsidian vault, it’s basically just a folder full of plain text files on your computer, and, uh, those plain text files, if you use, some of the Obsidian plugins, you can do some pretty interesting things with that plain text.

[00:32:32] Mike Schmitz: I would say the signature feature of Obsidian is that in those plain text files, you can put double square brackets around any piece of text, and then that will create a link to that text as the name of a note inside of your Obsidian vault. And that allows you to build these connections. They’re not just one-way connections like wiki links.

[00:32:56] Mike Schmitz: You know, if you’re gonna look at Wikipedia and there’s a link to another page, you [00:33:00] can click on that link, go to that other page, but you can’t n- there isn’t necessarily a way back to that previous note unless there’s another link on that other page. So all the links in Obsidian, they’re called bidirectional links, which means you can navigate to them from either direction.

[00:33:14] Mike Schmitz: So the way that I started using Obsidian actually was I wanted a way to create my own cross-reference library of all the sermon notes that I took. I’d take, sketch notes using GoodNotes on my iPad, and I always, like, have the, the verses that are mentioned, and I have a square box around them. So I was thinking, you know, if I could take this sketch note, create a note for that, you know, this is the day of the s- the note that I took, and then from there create links to these individual verses, I could click on the note for those individual verses, and I could see all of the other notes that I’ve taken that have linked to that and that’s, that’s basically the value of this.

[00:33:53] Mike Schmitz: You know, I can say this was the verse that was mentioned this Sunday, so I click on that, I see that verse, I see all the other [00:34:00] notes that are connected to that, not just sermon notes anymore, I’ve developed my own, like, topical Bibles, that sort of thing. But all of the other places inside my Obsidian vault that, that link to that, that particular verse.

[00:34:10] Mike Schmitz: And the, the key idea from this, if you don’t want the scriptural example, is that those individual notes, those are called atomic notes, right? So that you can connect to literally anything else, and that’s where the real, real power comes from, is when you break down things into the smallest component pieces.

[00:34:29] Mike Schmitz: I stole that atomic idea actually from James Clear when he talks, he defines it inside of Atomic Habits, is these things of immense power in the smallest component piece. I was like, “Okay, so if I take these notes and I break it down, I take the Bible text and I break it down to the smallest component piece, what is that?”

[00:34:44] Mike Schmitz: That’s an individual verse. So I have 30,000 individual verse notes inside my vault so that I can connect them like that and create those, those connections. But at, the key is I’m not looking at the big graph view that shows all the connections of everything in my vault. I’m never doing [00:35:00] that. There’s, what’s called a local graph.

[00:35:02] Mike Schmitz: You can put it, you can pin it inside of your, your interface. So when I open up a note, it puts that note in the middle on the local graph, and it shows all of the notes that either link to or are linked from that note as connections on that graph, and you can click on that graph and you kind of navigate your notes that way.

[00:35:18] Mike Schmitz: If you do that a little bit, you can end up in some really interesting places, and then as you’re doing that, your brain’s like, “Oh, that’s connected to that. I didn’t even realize that before

[00:35:26] Jeff Sieh: And that’s where creativity is, It’s connecting things together that you haven’t, or you haven’t shared, or it’s not in your voice. That is fascinating. I used to use a tool called Roam Research, which had the kinda same thing, then I kinda moved to Notion. But now I’m really diving into Obsidian, mainly because of the AI and the markdown stuff, and all that stuff that ties into it.

[00:35:44] Jeff Sieh: So that, Disney hotel lady is what Obsidian is. So if your brain’s exploding right now, don’t freak out, because Mike has an amazing YouTube channel where he kinda goes through a lot of these individual pieces in setting up Obsidian. it’s a big channel. It’s really cool, so [00:36:00] make sure you guys check it out.

[00:36:00] Jeff Sieh: Uh, what is the YouTube name again, Mike? I’m sorry, I can’t remember off the top of my head.

[00:36:04] Mike Schmitz: The URL is youtube.com/mikeschmitz, but if you search for Mike Schmitz, you will find my YouTube nemesis, Father Mike Schmitz. That is not

[00:36:12] Jeff Sieh: That is right. I found him. Yeah, I found him. So I did Mike Schmitz practical PKM, and that’s what, it sur- it surfaced. So you can do it that way as well

[00:36:21] Mike Schmitz: Yeah

[00:36:22] Paul Gowder: So for somebody like me, I’ve heard of Second Brain, and Jeff talks about it all the time, and I want to get started. So, like, how do we actually do that? And then how do we go about, like, how does it change how we’re thinking and, and how do we use it on a daily basis?

[00:36:36] Mike Schmitz: Yeah, that is the million-dollar question, and I think the… Let’s start with, like, how to get started with it. do not just import everything from whatever failed system you tried before that made you frustrated. That’s the question I get most often is, “How do I import stuff into Obsidian?” Obsidian has an official importer, but my que- my answer is always, “You don’t.

[00:36:58] Mike Schmitz: Start fresh,” [00:37:00] and Put things in there that you’re working on, things that are interesting to you, and then start to work with your notes by creating those, those links. and this is where, you know, talking about AI in the creative process, I’m absolutely not gonna let AI mess with my notes and ideas in Obsidian and make those connections for me, because each one of those connections has to be some- has to be a connection that I’ve made.

[00:37:24] Mike Schmitz: It has to be a connection that I’ve realized. Having a bunch of connected notes where I didn’t forge those connections myself, I think is pretty much useless. I want each one of those connections to mean something significant to me. So there’s a bunch of different ways that you could do it, but if you, I think, uh, in terms of a, a creator, for example, I would just put in some… S- Start capturing some, some, ideas, some things that are, are piquing your, your curiosity, things that are interesting to you. Eventually get those into Obsidian. Ask yourself how these connect. And then what I love about Obsidian is that it’s the best markdown editor I’ve [00:38:00] ever used.

[00:38:00] Mike Schmitz: With all the plugins, you can configure it exactly the way you want. You can basically build your own, productivity, creativity system. With Claude, you can make your own plugins if they don’t exist now. you can really craft whatever writing environment you, you want to, to have and then force yourself to write about things.

[00:38:18] Mike Schmitz: Doesn’t matter if it’s public, you know, like Jeff was talking about with Day One and those, those journal entries. That is the create phase of the creativity flywheel. That is the, the output. Even if nobody else ever sees it, just get in the habit of consistently making things inside of Obsidian, and then because it’s markdown, if you do wanna put it anywhere else, it’s real easy to copy and paste it, put it in a newsletter, put it in a blog post, whatever.

[00:38:40] Mike Schmitz: but yeah, just start capturing things, start connecting things, and then start creating things.

[00:38:45] Jeff Sieh: So why I started doing the second brain thing and why, and I’ve, I’ve kind of, I’ve done Notion, which is kind of my workflow stuff now, so I want to have a new capture second brain thing. ’cause I did, Thomas Frank’s, he had a great, like, kind of Notion database that I used. but [00:39:00] for me, the whole idea of a second brain is because my creativity ebbs and flows.

[00:39:04] Jeff Sieh: I think I’m like a lot of people. Sometimes it’s really like, “Oh my gosh, I c- I c- I got so many ideas, I don’t know what to do with them.” That’s when, uh, the second brain comes in, and because it’s what I call, like, a, it’s rainy day insurance, right? Like, some days you know you’ve got to write an email, and you’re like, “I got nothing.”

[00:39:18] Jeff Sieh: Like, “I don’t wanna get up out of bed today. Paul said something to me that just hacked me off. I just don’t wanna be around.” And so, like, what… And so I can go to my vault, I can look at it, and I’m like, “Okay, I already started this. I’m gonna finish it, and then I have a piece of content.” So it’s kind of like rainy day insurance for me.

[00:39:34] Jeff Sieh: but you mentioned before your creativity flywheel, but I wanted to make sure we all, we talked about it and, and m- everybody’s clear on it. So it’s capture, curate, connect, cultivate, and then create. So where in that process does, like, the real magic happen? Like, and where do most people stall out?

[00:39:50] Jeff Sieh: Like, where do people, like, go, “Too hard, I’m done. I’m tapping out”? Like, where is that in the sequence that you’ve seen?

[00:39:56] Mike Schmitz: Yeah. well, it, it, it could b- actually happen [00:40:00] at any point in the flywheel. I used AI actually to create a creativity flywheel diagnostic that helps people identify the bottleneck. I think it’s flywheel.practicalpkm.com if people wanna, wanna try it out. and then there’s like, uh, some videos that will help, help you figure out where, where to get things, unstuck.

[00:40:18] Mike Schmitz: But the key for me, and the reason that it’s a flywheel, is that, I think creativity is a lot like, and PKM in general, is like a water wheel. There’s gotta be an inflow, there’s gotta be an outflow. So if the wheel stops, then the creativity stops. this, what you were describing, Jeff, about the, the insurance, the stuff that you can fall back on, the only reason that you have that stuff that you can fall back on is because you have a system for capturing things, and they are in that idea bank when you need something to write about, you know that I’ve pre-vetted these things and so there’s some good stuff, to work off of.

[00:40:53] Mike Schmitz: I think one of the most dangerous things is when you don’t have a system for your [00:41:00] ideas. You’ve got an idea that you’re excited about, but it’s the only one that you’ve got, and you’re putting all your stock into, “I have to make something out of this.” I feel like when it comes to creativity, you have to be willing to hold these things lightly, and you have to be willing to walk away from it if you realize, actually, this isn’t the thing.

[00:41:18] Mike Schmitz: That’s really hard and really scary when you don’t have something else to fall back on, which is why I describe my, uh, Obsidian vault as like a greenhouse for my ideas, and that’s where the different elements of the creativity flywheel happen. The only thing that doesn’t happen in Obsidian really is that capture phase.

[00:41:36] Mike Schmitz: I capture things into drafts, and the main reason is that drafts is everywhere for me. I’ve got it on my Apple Watch, so I can even dictate something if I’m out for a run. Obsidian’s quick capture is not really quick. it takes a while for the vault to open. By that time, you know, I, I may not j- I may not jot anything down.

[00:41:52] Mike Schmitz: So I want zero friction when I am capturing things. If I think something is at all a remote possibility, there’s something [00:42:00] here, I’m gonna capture it. But then I’m gonna go through and I’m gonna curate that, and that’s why that inbox has to be separate from where the rest of the stuff happens. I go through that drafts inbox about once a week and I look for the things that are still resonating, and I bring them over.

[00:42:13] Mike Schmitz: I estimate that about 90% of the stuff that I capture, after I get some distance from it, I’m like, “Ah, there really isn’t anything there,” and I just delete it. I’m not worried about, maybe there, maybe it was something valuable. I believe that if I’m constantly chasing my curiosity, that if something is really valuable, it’s gonna come back to me.

[00:42:31] Mike Schmitz: I’ll stumble upon that idea, uh, again, because I’ve always got that, that open loop. that’s, by the way, when you talk about the creativity flywheel, if you have that constant output, what it does is it primes the pump for recognizing what’s actually valuable. And so it’s actually makes it a lot easier to capture things.

[00:42:47] Mike Schmitz: once you get some momentum, then it, it, it continues to, it continues to build on itself. Uh, at Craft and Commerce a couple years ago Nathan Barry, the, the CEO of Kit, talked about the laws of flywheels, and that really resonated with me. He talked about [00:43:00] how when you, turn a flywheel, it takes a lot of effort at the beginning, but then each turn actually becomes easier as you build momentum, and it also produces more.

[00:43:09] Mike Schmitz: And so I think that absolutely applies to the creative process. Now, w- how that stuff happens inside of Obsidian, I, I kinda don’t put any sort of, pressure or, or timeline on that. I’m curating the things that, that come in there. I’m periodically making connections, but I’m making those connections not on a schedule, not, you know, three hours a week I’m in there making my notes.

[00:43:30] Mike Schmitz: but when it… when I notice that there’s a connection, and this is my big beef with some of those pre-made systems, is I feel like if you take somebody else’s system, and I have a pre-built vault, but there’s an important distinction here, I wanna make. it- it’s a starting point. It’s not the blueprint.

[00:43:46] Mike Schmitz: So if you’re gonna, you know, have a set folder structure, that’s, that’s great if it clicks for you, but 99% of people, that’s probably not the folder structure you should use. PARA is great if you are all in with PARA, if that’s the way that your brain [00:44:00] works. But I think a lot of times we force our brain down these paths when we, we should be s- like, giving it some, some fresh stuff to work with.

[00:44:07] Mike Schmitz: Like Paul, you were talking about just starting off. I wouldn’t say create these folders first. I would say start playing with your notes and sort of like the desire paths on college campuses, see where your brain naturally wants to go, and then add some structure around that, whether it’s folders, whether it’s tags.

[00:44:22] Mike Schmitz: Don’t try to, like, apply all that stuff at the beginning, and then, “I don’t understand any of this,” you know, and then then you write it off, and you go try the, try the next system. so you let that stuff develop. Let the connections happen, you know, kinda organically, and then the cultivate phase is the real important one.

[00:44:41] Mike Schmitz: That’s why, like, I, I do write a newsletter every week. I do create on a schedule, but that’s only because I’ve got a quantity of, ideas to work with there. I’m not forcing anything. That cultivate phase is kinda like time in the oven. Don’t take the cake out before it’s finished. And as long as you’ve got the [00:45:00] system that’s feeding all the other stuff, you know, you’ve always got some other pieces to, to work with

[00:45:05] Jeff Sieh: Very, very cool

[00:45:06] Paul Gowder: All right, so let me see if I can put this in photography terms. in like, in the dark room. So the negative is your notes. Your personality, your taste is how we develop that negative, and then AI is the part that can make it, you know, enlarge it and do other things with it. Is, is that f- for me, the photographer, is that fair?

[00:45:26] Paul Gowder: And then can you break that down a little bit more for us?

[00:45:28] Mike Schmitz: I think so, though I’m not a photographer, so I, I do think that that is probably a pretty good analogy though. so you- maybe you can help me understand this a little bit better, but my understanding of, like, old school photography is that when you are in the, the dark room, there are a lot of things that, that you can do that are going to change the composition of that, that image, right?

[00:45:52] Mike Schmitz: You have control over what that actually looks like at the end. and, and I f- I feel like, yeah, [00:46:00] you’ve gotta, you’ve gotta control that, that dial. You can’t just take your hands off the, the steering wheel at, at that point. But AI, I think, is, is great at, at amplifying your human voice and taste if you, if you use it intentionally.

[00:46:14] Mike Schmitz: so if- I generally have an idea of what I wanna say, and, just as an example, maybe you’re, you have a… You know what you wanna say, your fingers move faster than your brain, and so you make a whole bunch of typos when you send a newsletter. You’re gonna run it through Grammarly or something.

[00:46:27] Mike Schmitz: That’s AI in the process. for me with YouTube, I know how to make a… Like, I know how to… I know what I wanna talk about, and I know that I can create a pretty killer screencast video, whatever. I’m terrible at writing hooks. and so that’s where I’ll use AI to, through vidIQ, help me, nail down the, the hook for this, this video, things like that.

[00:46:45] Mike Schmitz: I’m not just, like, putting it on autopilot. and it is definitely impacting the, the final product. But yeah, you gotta kinda have an idea, or some sort of vision in your, your, your head of what I want the, the final output to, [00:47:00] to look like. A general idea of that, that vision, and then, then AI can, can help you bring it to life

[00:47:05] Jeff Sieh: I think those are great, that’s a great example. Yeah. I wanna ask one question before we move on to the next section. Man, we’re running out of time. I love h- having Mike on here ’cause this is stuff I nerd out about and I could talk with him forever about it. But Paula has a great question, and I thought of the same thing when you kinda, because this is, I think, a, a big friction point for a lot of people.

[00:47:23] Jeff Sieh: She goes, “Mike, could you repeat your process for capturing ideas on the fly?”

[00:47:27] Mike Schmitz: Sure. So I use Drafts, I think it’s draftsapp.com or maybe getdrafts.com. I don’t remember. It’s a indie app from a single guy, and it’s basically a plain text, capture tool. It supports markdown too, so if I wanted to capture in markdown, whatever I captured there is actually gonna be rendered when I bring it over to Obsidian.

[00:47:47] Mike Schmitz: But a lot of times I will just, if it’s an idea, I usually put idea colon, and then whatever the idea is. if it’s a podcast episode, it’ll be like idea colon, you know, topic for Focused or [00:48:00] something. those sit in my Drafts inbox, which I can access on my iPhone, I can access on my Mac. when I’m out for a run, which is typically where I get a lot of ideas, it’s a complication on my watch, and so idea colon whatever, it’ll sync back immediately ’cause it’s all just plain text.

[00:48:16] Mike Schmitz: And then about once a week I’ll bring that stuff over into Obsidian. I don’t pipe it in automatically. there are, like, export actions in Drafts, but I think this is one place, that curate phase, if we, if we wanna eliminate the friction during the capture phase, curate is where we wanna add it back. it’s really intentional friction where things really have to resonate in order to bust through that, that barrier.

[00:48:38] Mike Schmitz: But yeah, that’s basically it. It’s not, it’s not too complicated, it’s just if something, you know, resonates, I, I drop a marker, and then later I come back to it and if it’s something that I’m still excited about, I’ll, I’ll bring it over into Obsidian and see where it goes.

[00:48:53] Paul Gowder: I, I, I’d love to draft… I, I think it was CEX where somebody showed me drafts. I have it as my action button on my iPhone, [00:49:00] so at any point I can just… I, I have a complication too, but I use that action button more often than not, and yeah, it just quickly captures, get it out of my head.

[00:49:08] Jeff Sieh: I, it’s, it’s all about friction. And you know what I’ve been using, and I’ve been doing it for probably about five months now, is I use the Reminders app, and I have an, a, a tab just called Ideas. And I do what you do, Mike. I’ll say, like, email, da da da da da da. Or, you know, product idea, da da da da da da.

[00:49:25] Jeff Sieh: You know? I’ll, I’ll capture it that way because it lives, like you said, everywhere. Drafts for me is a little hard to get opened and stuff, and so I like, I really like just Reminders, ’cause it just is so easy and it’s … You know, I can s- I can just talk and say, “Hey, set a reminder in my ideas to da da da da da,” and it will capture it and put it out there.

[00:49:40] Jeff Sieh: So the capture, as long as you do it, but then you go back and curate it and do something with it. Just don’t … A lot of people just capture ideas, and then they, they don’t ever do anything with it. So having that time where you go back and sit down and make those connections and say, “Okay. Oh, I, I actually have three.

[00:49:56] Jeff Sieh: I have an email series here,” or, “I have a new sequence,” or whatever you can [00:50:00] have, when you go back and do that. So really quick before we wrap up, I want you to talk about your, your Life HQ, because I was so impressed with it I actually bought it. He tried to give it to me, but I’m like, “No, you don’t.

[00:50:10] Jeff Sieh: Quit doing that. You gotta, you gotta sell your stuff.” so I bought it. I’ve been very impressed with it, one, because he gives you one that he’s kinda pre-populated, but he also has one like he was talking about that’s totally blank for you to do with whatever with, with. And I’m just, I’ve just dipped my toe into the Obsidian thing, and I’m pretty impressed with it.

[00:50:28] Jeff Sieh: but let’s, let’s talk about it. Obsidian’s biggest problem might be that empty vault. But you open it and you have no idea where to start. So what does Life HQ, you know, how does it scratch that itch? And so what is Life HQ in practical terms?

[00:50:43] Mike Schmitz: Yeah, so Life HQ started as a collection of my workflows. I do a, a practical PKM cohort where I talk through, a model or framework I call the PKM stack, which really just kind of visualizes how information flows into and out of your, [00:51:00] your PKM system. And I would argue, by the way, whether people have never heard of Obsidian, have no interest in Notion, like you have a PKM stack that you are currently using for managing the information, the ideas, the actions, your identity, reflection.

[00:51:15] Mike Schmitz: Those are all like component pieces to, uh, doing more of, of what matters, right? So, Life HQ really is all of the workflows that I built, and I started off, I just put all the, the s- the settings and the plug-ins and things in there, gave it to people and they’re like, “Here you go.” And nobody used it, and I don’t blame them.

[00:51:33] Mike Schmitz: So then it was like, we really need some, some explanation of how this stuff is put together. that led me down a rabbit hole, which turned into Life HQ. There are- there is over 60,000 words of handwritten documentation for all of the workflows that I have used, ’cause I’ve been all in with Obsidian for over five years now.

[00:51:50] Mike Schmitz: it’s all broken down into categories. So there’s journaling, there’s task management, there’s, I call it the life theme, you know, my, my vision and values [00:52:00] piece, personal retreats All that kind of stuff kind of falls into these different buckets, and there’s, like, hub notes on, like, this is everything you need to know about journaling, and all of the, the notes that connect to that.

[00:52:10] Mike Schmitz: And then there are specific how-tos for each and every workflow. There’s a summary at the top. and I, I built it in a way that the, the Life HQ reference vault, I call it, that’s the, the big one with, with all the stuff in there. There’s a whole bunch of example data so you can see how things work.

[00:52:25] Mike Schmitz: There’s screenshots, there’s videos. It, it documents everything. there’s also an onboarding that, like, walks you through if you’re brand new. The very first thing you see is start here. That note opens by default. You click to that, go to the next one. It introduces you to some of the, the core frameworks.

[00:52:39] Mike Schmitz: But then it’s sort of choose your own adventure. everything is linked, so you can jump between different things, and there’s a status property for each and every note that at the beginning is unread. There’s a button that I built on each note. So as you, like, okay, I got that one, you click the button, it marks it to red, and the highlight behind the note changes from a blue magnifying glass to a green check mark.

[00:52:58] Mike Schmitz: So you can kind of visually keep [00:53:00] track as you work your way through this. And really, the idea is I want documentation for my own workflows, explanation of how they work, so that you don’t just use what I built. The blank version basically is that. If you didn’t do anything else to it, you could just start putting in your own stuff and using it that way.

[00:53:18] Mike Schmitz: But I want people to understand it so that they can tweak it and make it their own. I really take a values-based a- approach to productivity and, like, what are we, what are we doing? Why are we doing it? You know, I want it to be in alignment with my vision and my values. I call it a life theme. You know, everything I do has to be connected to that life theme, otherwise it’s an automatic no for me.

[00:53:38] Mike Schmitz: So my life theme is I help people multiply their time and talent, leave a bigger dent in the universe. So if I… I, I’ll experiment with stuff, like, when I talk about PKM, it’s very much in, in service of that. I wanna help people me- get, get clarity on what really matters, and then create these productivity and creativity systems so that they, make more, of what they were designed to make and do more of what, what really [00:54:00] matters, to them.

[00:54:00] Mike Schmitz: But I don’t want it to be just, like, a, a done for you, okay, here, now you’ve got the system, now just start using it. I wanna give people the, the power to tweak it and make it their own. that’s the, the vision behind it. it’s kinda hard to do that. I think you really do have to sink your teeth into it which is why I tried to make it as easy as I could with all that documentation, to help people rip out, you know, specific pieces of it as they layer stuff into their, their own Obsidian vaults.

[00:54:24] Jeff Sieh: And you also have, like, a free version that I saw too. it gives you, like, some tutorials and some walkthroughs.

[00:54:29] Mike Schmitz: Yeah, I’ve got a, I’ve got a free starter vault. It’s not actually like LifeHQ Lite, it’s really just a bunch of, tips and, and resources for Obsidian. So if you’re like brand new to Obsidian, it’s forcing you to write in Markdown, I have no idea what Markdown is, the starter vault has like a Markdown cheat sheet, stuff like that

[00:54:44] Jeff Sieh: Very, very cool

[00:54:45] Paul Gowder: Now, you’ve mentioned that in, in some of this, some of these workflows you have are battle-tested. These are things that you’ve tested over the years. Can you tell us, as we are getting… Some of us are just getting started, what’s some things that went wrong for you, and what are- that’s baked into this app that we won’t make those same [00:55:00] mistakes?

[00:55:01] Mike Schmitz: Oh, man. well, I’ll talk about journaling ’cause that’s probably the, the most pointed example. I have an o- on-again, off-again relationship with journaling. I’ve used, I used Day One for, for many years, tried all the different apps, and it just never really stuck. I would stick with it for a little bit, but very jealous of Jeff’s 2,000-day day streak.

[00:55:19] Mike Schmitz: Like, that never worked for me. So I read, Triggers by Marshall Goldsmith for the Bookworm Podcast, and he talks about this different way of doing journaling that he calls daily questions. And the, the thing there is instead of having the prompt like, “What did you accomplish today?” where it’s focused on the outcome, his was framed, “Did I do my best to…”

[00:55:39] Mike Schmitz: and then he’s got, like, core areas he’s checking in on, and he gives himself a rating from one to 10. So you’re eliminating the outcome from the, from the process because I, I would go to journal and be like, “What did I accomplish today? Well, pretty much nothing. Okay, I don’t wanna say that, so, I’m just not gonna journal today.”

[00:55:55] Mike Schmitz: And then I miss a day, I miss a couple of days, and all of a sudden, you know, the momentum’s [00:56:00] gone. So with daily questions, you’re really just focusing on the effort, not the outcome. And so, like, I have on there, did I do my best to be spiritual, love my wife, love my kids, create something, learn something, and exercise example, if I am getting over a cold, and I force myself to just go for a, a short, slow run, and I run a mile and a half, you know, I may give myself a nine for did I do my best to exercise?

[00:56:25] Mike Schmitz: If I’m training for a half-marathon and I cut my long run short and I do seven miles instead of 10, you know, I might give that a six. so it’s all based off of, off of the effort because I believe if you consistently put in the effort, then the score will, will take care of itself. That daily questions format has really stuck with me, and I actually…

[00:56:44] Mike Schmitz: I came from Roam Research too, Jeff, so I was starting to do that in Roam Research using the daily notes. I built that into Obsidian now, using the metadata properties at the top, and I was able to create some fancy graph views so I can, I can chart my, my scores and my [00:57:00] averages over time, bring that into my personal retreats.

[00:57:02] Mike Schmitz: and I’ve been doing that consistently now for, I think five years. That was one of the first, workflows that I built in Obsidian, and that really was the thing that caused journaling to click for me. And then this kind of gets at another point, to what you were asking about, Paul. Getting started with Obsidian, don’t try to do a whole bunch of stuff.

[00:57:19] Mike Schmitz: Get one workflow that’s gonna solve a specific need for the way that you work because with Obsidian, if you have an idea for a specific workflow that’s not working in another app, whether it’s task management or, or anything, you can probably build it. So build that one thing that’s really gonna add value, and then you can layer things on top of that.

[00:57:37] Mike Schmitz: That’s exactly what I did with the daily questions. Once I got consistent with the daily questions, now I’ve got sections in that daily note where I can capture a journal entry. I can capture a gratitude entry. I can capture any wins that I have. You know, and I can build all these systems in so, like, it all gets pulled together using these queries, so it’s easy to review when I do my, my personal retreats.

[00:57:56] Mike Schmitz: but I have failed lots of times with journaling. I’ve failed lots of times with [00:58:00] task and project management. and, and my task and project management one, that’s in LifeHQ. I’ve got a video on this. definitely take a look at that video because this is not for the, the faint of heart.

[00:58:09] Mike Schmitz: This is the evolution of me failing over and over and over again before I found a system that actually worked for me. But, yeah, so that’s what I mean by, by battle-tested is, like, it took me a long time and a lot of trial and error, but I landed on some things that actually worked. Because I’m a systems thinker and I wanna get to the why, I unpack why I think it worked, and then, you know, this is what I built.

[00:58:30] Mike Schmitz: Feel free to tweak it and make it your own

[00:58:32] Jeff Sieh: Or you could do something where you can’t get in your office unless you write in your journal, which is what I’ve done. So

[00:58:37] Mike Schmitz: Forcing functions. I love it.

[00:58:38] Jeff Sieh: that’s what I did. So this has been amazing. make sure you guys go follow, Mike everywhere. You can find him at Mike Schmitz at practicalPKM.com.

[00:58:49] Jeff Sieh: So that’s practicalPKM.com if you guys are listening on the podcast. Amazing stuff. I have been more and more impressed every time I hear him speak or sit down and talk to him. We didn’t even get to the AI thing he built, there when I was watching [00:59:00] him at, at Mac Stock, but it was great. So we’ll ha- we’ll have you back on.

[00:59:03] Jeff Sieh: We’ll talk about that, sometime as well. But thank you guys so much. Paul Gowder, what’s going on with you? Where can people find out more about the amazing Paul Gowder?

[00:59:10] Paul Gowder: I got a Facebook challenge going on if you’re looking to really grow your Facebook and do more there. So come over, check me out, paulgowder.com/facebookchallenge

[00:59:18] Jeff Sieh: And Mike, is there anything else you wanna talk to us about before we wrap things up? Anything you wanna send people to other than practicalbkm.com?

[00:59:25] Mike Schmitz: Nah, practicalpm.com is the, the place where I’ve got links to everything else that I do, including a whole bunch of free tools. If you’re getting started with Obsidian, I got a whole section up at the, the top there free tools that I’ve vibe coded. Claude’s been, uh, very helpful in creating a whole bunch of quizzes, diagnostic tools, all sorts of things, if you need help with Obsidian

[00:59:44] Jeff Sieh: Very, very cool. And don’t forget, if you guys want to get the notes of all the things we’re talking about today, in a couple hours this will be rolling out on jeffsieh.com/cheatsheet, where you can find the notes of this show that are, and next steps, all sorts of cool things. Go and kick [01:00:00] the tires for me.

[01:00:00] Jeff Sieh: Tell me what you think about this new feature, jeffsieh.com/cheatsheet. We had some great comments today. Paula says, “I really like adding the resonance component. If my idea continues to resonate over time, it’s more likely to be meaningful to those interacting with my content.” Rich is saying, “Ugh, I feel you with journaling.

[01:00:15] Jeff Sieh: So hard to stick with it.” Thank you, guys. We have Thank you guys so much for watching. Thank you, Mike, for being here. We will see you next time. Have a great weekend, everybody. Bye now

SHOW TRANSCRIPT

This transcript is automatically generated by Descript.  Any errors or omissions are unintentional.

[00:00:00] Jennifer Bennett: You know, the vast majority of the people, they’re like, “Oh my gosh, ChatGPT knows me so well.” No, it really doesn’t.

[00:00:05] Jeff Sieh: Yeah

[00:00:06] Jennifer Bennett: it is just reading the patterns of what you’re telling it And this is the, the part that a lot of people need to think about is you’ve got to put your core essence into these so that it actually helps you with whatever it is you’re helping it with.

[00:00:22] Jennifer Bennett: We gotta tell it that this is the source of truth. Do not go outside of that source of truth. So remember, we’re training an employee. “Okay, this is cool. We do plumbing.

[00:00:32] Jennifer Bennett: These are the vendors we use.” Okay? well these vendors don’t have it. Okay, they have to order it. Okay, we can’t go to Joe Schmoe over here because their parts are crappy.” So if that’s not in there- Yeah … this is where you have to get into that decision tree of like, this is the source of truth.

[00:00:47] Jennifer Bennett: You don’t search the web for this

[00:00:55] Jeff Sieh: Hello, folks. Welcome to Creator News Live. I’m Jeff Sieh, and you’re not

[00:00:58] Zac Brown: And I’m Zac Brown, and this [00:01:00] is the show that keeps you up to date on what’s happening in the world of the creator economy and so much more

[00:01:05] Jeff Sieh: How much of your week disappears into work that nobody ever sees? The inbox, the scheduling, the follow-ups, the endless repurposing. Have you ever felt like you got into this to create and be creative, and instead you have become your own unpaid admin? And what if AI could actually take that off your plate without making everything you publish sound like everyone else?

[00:01:27] Jeff Sieh: If that sounds familiar, you are in the right place

[00:01:30] Zac Brown: Our guest today is Jennifer Bennett, the founder of getDesky and a fractional chief AI officer who spent over 20 years inside high-volume operations, at one point running the systems behind 1.2 million leads a month. Today, she is showing us how to hand the backend busy work to AI and AI agents, how her human-driven AI integration method works, and how to keep your voice intact while you do it

[00:01:53] Jeff Sieh: So sit back, clear your schedule, clear your mind, and get ready for this week’s episode of Creator [00:02:00] News Live That’s right. We’re gonna talk about how to create what’s right with Jennifer Bennett today. But first, I wanna do a big shout-out to our sponsor, which is Ecamm. Yes, that’s right, Ecamm. You can find out more about them at ecamm.com/jeff. You can use code JEFF15 to save 15% on your first purchase.

[00:02:36] Jeff Sieh: So let’s jump right into this. But I wanted to ask the audience, you guys, before we get started, I want to know how you’re feeling about AI in your business right now.

[00:02:46] Jeff Sieh: Are you– I want you to put it in the, the chat: excited, overwhelmed, or skeptical? So AI in your business: excited, overwhelmed, which I think a lot of us are, or skeptical. Let us know down below from [00:03:00] wherever you’re watching from, and, uh, we would love to know what your thoughts are on this. So Jennifer, you call yourself the executive in the building, not the consultant on the sideline.

[00:03:10] Jeff Sieh: So what does that distinction actually mean for a solopreneur or a small team who cannot afford this whole ops department that they see so many of these big businesses have?

[00:03:20] Jennifer Bennett: Yeah. So the, the biggest distinction for that is, the vast majority of the people, they need somebody that’s in the messy middle, that comes in and is gonna sit with them and figure out exactly what they need versus handing them a guide, handing them a template, you know, creating them a roadmap, all of this different stuff for them to go and do it themselves.

[00:03:41] Jennifer Bennett: Because the vast majority of you guys, you guys are amazing at what you do, but you are not amazing at taking away all of the desk work that comes with building a business, and that’s what I really shine in really, really well

[00:03:57] Jeff Sieh: Awesome

[00:03:57] Zac Brown: Jennifer, your thesis is that AI will [00:04:00] never replace real presence, that the future belongs to founders who train AI on what only they can carry. That is something that I am fascinated by. Unpack that for someone who’s worried that AI is going to make something sound the same as everything else

[00:04:16] Jennifer Bennett: well, it comes down to a few different things. So you have to remember that AI and, and its state that it’s in right now is still a robot. And when you get down to the real heart of that, it’s still programmable logic. So it only determines and reads based off of the logic that it is programmed in. So it doesn’t have the in-depth decision trees, the emotions, all of the different cascades of things that happen inside like the human mind at all times.

[00:04:51] Jennifer Bennett: You know, we can have like multiple different emotions all at one time, and those can drive our decisions [00:05:00] or we can train ourselves to kind of like feel them and then let them go. And that is not something that any sort of AI or any kind of automations can really do. You know, automations can go and say, “Hey, you know, this happens.

[00:05:17] Jennifer Bennett: Okay, then, you know, let’s search all of the rest of this stuff and let’s make the best logical choice.” There’s no, emotion that is in that, and that’s the biggest part. I think I recently put up a post about that as well too, explaining, you know, when people are going through and they’re making hard decisions or they have life that is life-ing, they don’t need someone– they don’t need a robot to tell them what their, what the coping strategies are.

[00:05:46] Jennifer Bennett: A lot of the times what they need is they need somebody that’s just gonna sit with them and allow them to borrow their presence for whatever that is. And that’s, that’s something that AI can’t take away. You can’t take away that [00:06:00] physical presence that only you can give somebody when they’re going through whatever it is they’re going through

[00:06:07] Jeff Sieh: I think that’s a great point because, like, even at the conference we were in a couple weeks ago, like I wouldn’t have asked the AI Jennifer bot if I was, you know, trying to find out about you. I wouldn’t ask her to be on the show. But since we were able to sit down together, experience the conference together , you know, then I was like, “Okay, she would be fun.

[00:06:23] Jeff Sieh: This would be somebody I’d like to introduce to my audience.” That kind of stuff I don’t think AI is ever going to be able to replace because there’s that give and take, there’s that face time, which I, I really, once more, I mean, I love everything that AI can do for me and it’s helped my business, but I really think going out and, and making those connections and ha- going to conferences and all that stuff is still super important, especially for a small business owner or a solopreneur.

[00:06:45] Jeff Sieh: I mean, I just think that’s the way you can take your business to the next level. But speaking of that, of taking to the next level, Jennifer, I mean, you, you managed systems behind, like, 1.2 million leads a month before you built this GetDesky, thing that you, [00:07:00] that you have. So what did running at that scale, ’cause that’s a lot.

[00:07:03] Jeff Sieh: Like, you think about 1.2 million leads, that’s a lot. So what did that teach you about what breaks first when you grow, and how does that apply to a creator going from, like, 5,000 followers to 50,000 followers?

[00:07:16] Jennifer Bennett: Yeah. So in that capacity, I was running an ad agency that mainly targeted real estate agents. and those leads were coming in for brokerages all over the world. and really what breaks first is your undocumented processes. the vast majority of those were for, buyers or sellers, and what, came down to the wire was people didn’t have good follow-up systems.

[00:07:43] Jennifer Bennett: They didn’t set up their, their systems before they even did it. I was– I literally sat down probably three years ago, with a mentor that I had, and one of the questions that he asked me, he says, ” Well, how many of the people were really [00:08:00] successful with the leads that you generated for them?” And I said, “About 15%.”

[00:08:05] Jennifer Bennett: And of those 15% of people that had those leads come in and were successful, they asked the question first of, “Okay, I’m gonna have all of these leads come in for, for me or my brokerage or my whole team. What do I need to do to make that be successful?” So the ones that were doing that, they sat down and they looked at, “Okay, this is gonna come in.

[00:08:30] Jennifer Bennett: What do I need to have in place before this first lead comes in? Do I need to have you know, a round robin where multiple of my people are touching this person? Do I need to have sales scripts ready? Do I need to have templates? Do I need to ha- what, what all do I need to have to make sure that every lead that touches this system actually works?”

[00:08:53] Jennifer Bennett: And the vast majority of the people did not even, take a pre-call to know what kind of CRM should I [00:09:00] have? should I even have a CRM? That was the biggest thing to me. And then also, like, what should I be prepared for? Like, what should the lead flow look like? when should I know if there’s a problem?

[00:09:13] Jennifer Bennett: all of these different things, and it revolved around an undocumented sales process for them really, because they were in such a feast or famine- that they thought that they needed more leads. The vast majority of them really didn’t need more leads. They needed to double down on what they already had in their system in a much better way, and they didn’t want to do that.

[00:09:36] Jennifer Bennett: They just wanted more leads. And so their undocumented process like exasperated that to an, an exuberant level for, for some of them, because some of them would get hundreds of leads a day. some of the brokerages in, in larger places, they were getting upwards of like three to 5,000 leads a month. and they weren’t, they were closing at less than 1%, because their, [00:10:00] their, their sales process was not fine-tuned enough

[00:10:03] Jeff Sieh: So I guess the question would be, is it… So now with AI, is there any reason why there should not be an undocumented process anymore? Because now AI can take that heavy lift that so many… I mean, a lot of the stuff that I’m using AI for is like, I would love to do it, but I never had time, and now I can do it because I do have that time.

[00:10:22] Jeff Sieh: Is that what you’re seeing, and is that what you’re saying as well?

[00:10:24] Jennifer Bennett: 100%. You know, we have note takers that can follow us around. I– one of my favorite tools that I use to document, processes is called Scribe. and between that and all of the note takers, all of the different avenues that you have to be able to document your processes, there’s no reason as to why you can’t have documented processes that you can then feed to an AI, that you can then feed to a sales team, that you can then feed to an, an executive assistant, that you can then feed into, you know, your, your editor, you know, [00:11:00] all, all of these different things that are going to allow you to do that.

[00:11:02] Jennifer Bennett: There’s really not a whole lot of excuses out there for as to why you do not have undocumented processes. But it is one of the reasons why the vast majority of entrepreneurs and small business owners that I encounter, why their systems break, is because everything lives in their head, and they are so on fire, and they just want to grow their business so that they can make the impact that they wanna have, but they’re not willing to sit down with their, team or even an AI or even a tool like Scribe and take the five minutes to do that.

[00:11:39] Jennifer Bennett: I cannot tell you the vast majority of times when I was running upwards of a team of eight for, for GetDesky, somebody would ask me how to do something, and I’d go into Scribe, and I’d just put it in there, and I’d be like, “Okay, now next time don’t ask me. It’s there in the, in the library. Did you see that?

[00:11:56] Jennifer Bennett: Is there a question about that?”

[00:11:59] Jeff Sieh: Very cool

[00:11:59] Zac Brown: [00:12:00] You know, you’ve presented an actual issue and a solution. So I’m sitting on this side going, “Well, this is obvious.” But I think there’s a lot of people in our audience just out in the world that they’re either scared of AI or maybe they feel like there’s too much and they’re feeling behind and so like, “I’m just not gonna get started.”

[00:12:19] Zac Brown: When you sit down with a founder who has just basically bounced off AI already, what is it that you feel is the real reason that AI did not stick with them?

[00:12:28] Jennifer Bennett: lack of understanding of the way that you train AI. Okay? So you have to remember when technology first came into the vast majority of workplaces back in the early 2000s, okay? It was presented in such a way that it was set it and forget it. Okay? And so the mentality is, is, “Okay, I can go in and I can set this, and then I can forget it.” it.”

[00:12:55] Jennifer Bennett: AI, because it has generative and pattern recognitions, [00:13:00] you have to think of it less as a standardized automation, like this happens, you do this, and you have to think of it more as you’re training an intern that you’re then going to rise up into other roles. So you have to come in and assume like this, this kid knows nothing about anything, and you have to bring it up to, to the level that which you want it to do that.

[00:13:27] Jennifer Bennett: And that means when you bring in an intern, usually you’re, you’re with them quite a bit. You’re, you’re refining them. You’re saying, “Hey, this was amazing. You did really great here. Hey, this… L- let’s tweak this. Instead of this here, let’s put this here.” You know, really, really sitting down and working with them on that.

[00:13:46] Jennifer Bennett: And that’s the, the vast majority of the, the gap that I see with some of the founders is they want to set it and forget it, because a lot of the times their hair’s on fire.

[00:13:56] Jeff Sieh: Right

[00:13:56] Zac Brown: Yeah

[00:13:57] Zac Brown:

[00:13:57] Jennifer Bennett: you know, I mean, service providers [00:14:00] especially for sure, they’re really good at plumbing, electrical, you know, all these different things, and they have all these leads coming in.

[00:14:07] Jennifer Bennett: and they want something that they can set and forget, and you can’t do that with AI

[00:14:11] Jeff Sieh: Mm-hmm. Right. you know, we asked the question where people are at, like if they’re scared of it, if they’re using it or whatever, and we had some great comments. And, this one from Rich Graham says, “Loving having Claude help with email and day planning.” I do the same thing. I think that’s awesome.

[00:14:25] Jeff Sieh: and you mentioned earlier, Jennifer, talking about the recorders, and I use Fathom. That’s what I use ’cause it’s free and it’s easy. I use it for my mastermind. But I think a lot of us are doing something that I did for a long time is like, I would use Fathom, it would record the notes, and then I did nothing with it, right?

[00:14:41] Jeff Sieh: I mean, I had a skill now, so after, and I use it mainly for my masterminds that I run with Paul, Paul Gowder. And what happens is now it auto- automatically goes and transcribes the, I mean, it’s already transcribed in Fathom, but it pulls it down, puts it in a database that my AI can, I can ask it questions later or come up with products [00:15:00] or what should our next thing be about that we need to talk about based off those conversations.

[00:15:05] Jeff Sieh: But it’s that, it was that unlock that I had that, okay, finally I, instead of just recording it, now it needs to do something with that data. And so now there’s a process, a system in place that does that automatically. One of the lines that you said, and I love this line, you said, “Systems before software,” which I was not a systems guy.

[00:15:22] Jeff Sieh: I’m starting to be ’cause I, I see how valuable it is. But most creators are like me. They do the opposite. They buy the tool first. They get Fathom or whatever. So why do, why does that backfire, and what should they do instead? Instead of waiting for such a long time like I did, what are you telling creators to do?

[00:15:37] Jennifer Bennett: Well, creatives and entrepreneurs, we love shiny objects, okay? We love the next big thing that we think is going to just grow our business without us, okay? But if we don’t understand the system in which we want people to filter through, whether that’s an [00:16:00] email, whether that’s all these other things, it’s not gonna matter.

[00:16:04] Jennifer Bennett: The tool’s not gonna work. you know, the, Fathom’s not gonna work. You know, all of these different things are not gonna work if we don’t sit down and say, “Okay, these people are coming into my circle. What am I gonna do with them?” You know? We have to think of, you know, the system as, as a whole, as an ecosystem of like, hey, how, how do we move these people forward, and so we can’t, we can’t sit there and, you know, just buy all the tools. You know, I’ve met some founders that had upwards of, like, 200 tools, and I’m like, “Why?” I’m like, “Some of these tools do the exact same thing. Why do we have so many of them?” And so one of the things I also talk to my founders about is, do you really need all these tools?

[00:16:45] Jennifer Bennett: Is there one specific feature that this tool does that none of your other tools do in your, your stack? And if that’s… If they can’t answer that and they can’t tell me that for certain, I’m gonna tell them, like, “Let it go.” [00:17:00] ‘Cause we… You know, if you’ve got, three CRMs and all of them do about the same, which spoiler alert, the vast majority of them do, you don’t need multiple ones unless there are multiple ones for different businesses and you can explain that to me

[00:17:12] Jeff Sieh: Yeah. One of one of the things that I tell people all the time is like, every one of these tools, they want you to sign up for a annual plan, and they give you a big discount when you do that. Don’t do it, because things are changing so fast, like, you might wanna switch. Unless you’re doing, like, something like Magai.

[00:17:26] Jeff Sieh: That’s the only one I say, because that gives you access to all the tools, and you can play. Especially when somebody’s starting out. I, I love Dustin’s product. But don’t buy the, the yearly plan of anything else, cause, like, this week Claude’s great. Next week it’s gonna be ChatGPT, OpenAI stuff. Like, so don’t get locked into a system when it changes so fast.

[00:17:44] Jeff Sieh: So I, I, I am, I’m willing to pay more for the, the freedom to switch. But I wanna ask the audience, If you could wave a magic wand, what is one admin task you would hand off tomorrow if you could? Would it be your email inbox? Would it be [00:18:00] scheduling calls? Would it be following up those calls, repurposing, or something else?

[00:18:04] Jeff Sieh: Tell us in the comments. Wherever you’re watching, put it down below. I would love to know what you… If you could wave that AI magic wand and have it do something for you, what would you take off your plate right now? I would love to know, because I think some of you, you probably could, and you just don’t know it.

[00:18:18] Jeff Sieh: So that’s what we have Jennifer here to talk about.

[00:18:21] Zac Brown: Jennifer, I love what you said about, you know, just the leaders who their hair’s on fire. And I think so many of us feel like that. you know, just all the things, things that are just eating our lunch. We’re like, “I’ve got so much to do.” So for the creator, the solopreneur, if they were to come to you and be like, “Jennifer, I need your help,” you know, what is the first backend admin job that you would tell them to hand off to AI or an AI agent?

[00:18:45] Zac Brown: Like the boring stuff that is just quietly eating their week.

[00:18:49] Jennifer Bennett: so it’s not which one I would do. I actually sit down with them and see which one is creating the fire. ‘Cause sometimes, sometimes it’s their audience, sometimes it’s their [00:19:00] inbox, sometimes it’s their calendar, sometimes it’s, it’s their team. Or sometimes it’s, service calls. Sometimes it’s all these different things.

[00:19:08] Jennifer Bennett: So really what you have to do is you have to have a holistic view of what is actually eating the founder’s, not time, but actual mental bandwidth. Because sometimes it, it is less about the actual physical task, and it’s more about the mental bandwidth that is literally draining the founder and making it feel like, you know, their, their hair’s on fire, you know?

[00:19:35] Jennifer Bennett: And so sometimes it- Yeah … it, sometimes you can just figure out which one is the mental bandwidth, and then design a system around that one to reduce that. and the, mental feeling of like, “I’m, I’m always stressed out. I’m… You know, there’s chaos everywhere,” that feeling goes away. And then they’re able to objectively look and say, “Okay. I’m spending way too much [00:20:00] time on my inbox, okay? How can I systematically train an AI agent to manage some of that, to where it’s only pinging me, ‘Hey Jen, you gotta pay this invoice,’ or, ‘Hey…'” like mine, my, agent for my inbox and my calendar, it schedules all of my requests that come in, and then it also will follow up with them and be like, “Hey, we’re gonna have a meeting, the next day.

[00:20:29] Jennifer Bennett: is there anything we need to change about that? Is there anything we need to know about the meeting?” And if it does, it’ll update it automatically. I don’t even have to think about it. So it just shows up and it just does that. It’s like, “Hey, uh, Zac Zac, we’re meeting tomorrow at 10:00 AM. is there anything we need to change?

[00:20:43] Jennifer Bennett: Do we need to go through there?” And then sometimes I’ll be like, “Hey, I need to reschedule that. can you reschedule that meeting for me?”

[00:20:49] Zac Brown: That’s great

[00:20:50] Jennifer Bennett: So, you know, making it to where it, it takes away some of that stuff is, is really helpful

[00:20:57] Jeff Sieh: And I think a lot of, people watching, a lot of creators, a [00:21:00] lot of creatives, have the issue of, like, they feel like they’re drowning already, and they don’t know where to s- start. Like, they know everything is broken, and it’s like you get into this vapor lock.

[00:21:09] Jeff Sieh: Like, what do I… I don’t know what even to start on. And what has been helpful for me, Jennifer, and I think you’ve talked about this before too, is that having AI interview you so you can find the thing that you could do first that will give you the most leverage to do those other tasks. Like it… I used to roll a dice to, like, figure out my, what I should do on my to-do list because they were all important, right?

[00:21:30] Jeff Sieh: Like, okay, if they’re all important, which one do you start with? So I would gamify it by rolling a dice. Now, I have AI that kind of tells us, “Hey, if you do this, this may help with this down the road.” And, you know, it kind of can walk you through and prioritize, help you prioritize things. I love the ask me questions that Claude has.

[00:21:45] Jeff Sieh: I love it that he asked me that, and I can really nail it down. So, I want to have you walk us through your human-driven AI integration methods, which is diagnose, design, deploy, and drive. So if I’m a team of one, what does [00:22:00] each stage actually look like in my business?

[00:22:03] Jennifer Bennett: Yeah. So we touched on this a little bit already, is I sit down with, with founders and figure out where, the vast majority of the time suck is coming. And like I said, for the vast majority of people, it is more mental than it is actual physical, task at first because, you know,

[00:22:22] Jennifer Bennett: I really wanna get to the heart of the feeling first, because if I can’t unlock the feeling of being on fire, once you set up your engine, your business engine, if you don’t take care of the feeling first of being on fire, even if things are well-oiled, the founder’s still gonna be in the middle,

[00:22:43] Jennifer Bennett: so he’s just gonna create more chaos.

[00:22:46] Jennifer Bennett: So you have to remove that first before you can actually go in and start building things with automations, with AI, or even creating SOPs or systems, processes, any of that kind of stuff. So [00:23:00] you have to figure that out first, and then once we figure that out, then we can design, “Okay, this is what we do first.

[00:23:05] Jennifer Bennett: This is how we do it,” and then we deploy it and we retrain it

[00:23:09] Jeff Sieh: Mm, got it.

[00:23:10] Zac Brown: There is a real difference between using ChatGPT and building an actual AI agent and workflow that runs on its own. Hand up accountability, I have not done this yet. I know I need to. I’m hearing it over and over and over again. So Jennifer, like, yes, it’s for our audience, but I’m gonna be selfish. Talk to me.

[00:23:28] Zac Brown: In plain English, what is an AI agent and where does it change the game for a small team or let’s say a solopreneur?

[00:23:34] Jennifer Bennett: Yeah. So there’s, there’s a big difference between, an agent that can actually run without you, and automation. So the vast majority of people that come to me, they say, “Hey, I want, I want this to follow up with people.” There’s automations for that. There have been automations for that since the early 2000s.

[00:23:55] Jennifer Bennett: but what I’m talking about is you’re going in and you’re training [00:24:00] an AI to think like you and go through and detect all of the different patterns that are available, and then make a decision based on the data that you have given it. Okay? So it is pretty much in layman’s terms for all of the people that have ever created automations, this is removing the vast majority of the decision trees of the, if this happens, then do this.

[00:24:33] Jennifer Bennett: So now it is pretty much short coded, you know, having to have Make or what it was called a long time ago, Integromat or Zapier, for some of the things that people used to use it for. Like one of the things that I did in real estate for the longest time, and I don’t think people realized it, was Zapier actually had an email, reader, and it was called parser.zapier.

[00:24:58] Jennifer Bennett: And so you could go [00:25:00] through and you could have it read for keywords in an email and it would do something. So now you have something that within five minutes, instead of learning how to do parser, you can have it say, “Hey, read all of these emails, and if they sound like XYZ, they go over here. If they’re this, put them here.

[00:25:22] Jennifer Bennett: If they’re this, put them here.”

[00:25:24] Jennifer Bennett: and that’s just the tip of the iceberg

[00:25:26] Jeff Sieh: what’s so cool that I think is, like, the stuff that I… Like, I’m not a data nerd, but now I can be, really easily. Like, I sent, an agent to go and crawl all… I use Kit for all my emails. So I, it told me, like, the best, subject lines, I talked about in the past, my frequency, what are people clicking on, all that stuff.

[00:25:44] Jeff Sieh: Now, you could go and drill in doing that, all that stuff inside the dashboard. But having AI have a connector that can go in and just spit me out a report in five minutes, oh my gosh. I mean, that’s just the tip of the iceberg, too. But being able to take chunks of data that I would never even take the time to look at [00:26:00] and have it distill it down so I can understand it and actually be useful, that’s the thing I think is really, really cool.

[00:26:06] Jeff Sieh: Because you have a thing you call the human check, which is an idea I think is really key for anybody who starts playing with AI, that it makes sure the output still sounds like you before it goes live. So talk about that, because I know that’s something that a lot of people wanna know. Like, how do you train AI on your voice and your judgment?

[00:26:23] Jeff Sieh: That’s the other part. Not just a lot… You know, Jasper was able to clone your voice a little bit, but your judgment, like the stuff that you want, and cloning your logic, not just spitting out generic, you know, AI slop. How do you get it to do that?

[00:26:36] Jennifer Bennett: Right. So that goes back to the mindset of this is not an automation, it is an intern. So you have to think of this as an employee. So that means when this agent comes in, you have to train it on all of these different decision metrics. You have to train it on, this is what I say. Like, I have words that I don’t use in my written [00:27:00] words.

[00:27:00] Jennifer Bennett: I have stories that I, that I use. I have stories that I don’t use. I have sources that I will pull from, and why I pull for them and different things like that. You have to give time and effort to this. And the vast majority of the people that are producing AI slop, they’re just doing it…

[00:27:21] Jennifer Bennett: They’re like, “Oh my God, I need to get a graphic out. ChatGPT will do one in five minutes.” I saw Jeff’s over here, drop it in there, and it looks exactly like Jeff’s. I wonder why it looks like Jeff’s. Because you copied Jeff’s. You didn’t take the time to teach it, like, who you are, your core values, your mission, your vision, y- you know, like where you’re going, what you’re doing, you know, all these different things.

[00:27:46] Jennifer Bennett: Think about it. Like, when you go and anybody has, been hired at a job, do you just go in and be like, “Hey, I need you to create an ad campaign for this,” without telling them anything about the company, [00:28:00] anything about your mission, anything about your vision, anything about, the goals that you guys have, anything like that?

[00:28:05] Jennifer Bennett: Do you… Does anybody do that? No. They tell you about the culture. They tell you about all this different kind of stuff. They tell you about the company story. If you don’t have that, I’m sorry, your stuff is gonna look like everybody else’s on the internet. That’s why.

[00:28:19] Jeff Sieh: Yeah. Real quick, Zac, before you have a question. I, I gotta, I gotta get nerdy for a minute, so Okay, so one of the things that I think that we need to talk about, because, Coming up with a design system, because you mentioned like don’t look like Jeff, just copy an image. Take the time to create a design system, like a .md file, which is a, a markdown file, but it has your logos, your, your colors, everything put together.

[00:28:49] Jeff Sieh: And the cool thing is once you create that, it doesn’t matter what, system you use. You can point… You can drop that document into ChatGPT, you can do it to Claude, whatever, but it has that built into [00:29:00] it. and if you don’t even know what that is, have the AI interview you and, and have that document put together.

[00:29:06] Jeff Sieh: anyway, off the soapbox, but I think it’s really cool because I think Google’s trying to standardizing the kind of the d- design .md file, so I think it’s a good place for people to start if they haven’t done that yet. Sorry, end of nerd rant.

[00:29:17] Jennifer Bennett: No, I love that because that goes back to remember we’re not having standardized automations. We are training an employee essentially in, in, in your business, and therefore it has to know all these things. You’re not gonna go and have all these things in there and not use them, ’cause now it remembers it.

[00:29:38] Jennifer Bennett: You know, a lot of them have much better, context windows than they used to have when they first launched in 2019. Perplexity just launched a memory, which you and I geeked out about in, in,

[00:29:49] Jeff Sieh: That’s… Yeah, we did

[00:29:51] Jennifer Bennett: In Witchita… I opened up my thing and I was like, “Oh my God, look, it looks like obsidian.” And he was like, “Oh my gosh, yes, it does.”

[00:29:59] Jennifer Bennett: But [00:30:00] when you think about it that way, you know, when people talk about like imparting their brain into AI, this is what they’re talking about. Because the goal is when you are in this space, is to create freedom, and the only way you could do that is, is you have to be able to train it on all of these different aspects of you

[00:30:19] Jeff Sieh: Mm-hmm. Very true. Yeah, very true. And it’s, and it’s worth doing because it gets better and better when you do it that way

[00:30:25] Jennifer Bennett: Oh yeah.

[00:30:25] Zac Brown: I think in the same way that, you know, Chick-fil-A and Disney creates, you know, their team members, their cast members to be brand ambassadors, we should be doing that with our AI agents. You know, making them follow the same guidelines and be like, “Hey, like this thing can run and it’s taking my culture and running with it,” like we would expect no less than, you know, a really solid employee.

[00:30:48] Zac Brown: So just a thought on that. Jennifer, if you’d give everyone watching a starting point. You know, if someone wants one AI system running in their business by next Friday, an actual time [00:31:00] saver, not just a hobby, what is the first one that you would have them build?

[00:31:04] Jennifer Bennett: well, first of all, I would have them review… So a little bit of a secret sauce about me. About two and a half years ago, I started doing something where on Fridays I review all of my emails, all of my text messages, all of my social media interactions, everything of that, of that sort, and I figure out, okay, what went good?

[00:31:25] Jennifer Bennett: What, what didn’t? Where can I improve? And now e- we, with AI coming in is, okay, what can I offload to AI? And so it’s really more about learning what your process is to augment,

[00:31:40] Jennifer Bennett: because everybody’s little thing is different. the vast majority of people, are gonna say it’s, it’s inbox and it’s calendar, but I would, I would make people pause to see if that’s actually where it’s at.

[00:31:55] Jennifer Bennett: Because sometimes people are actually really good at managing their inbox, [00:32:00] and they need something else first. Like maybe it is creating more blog posts, maybe it’s doing other stuff, and they’re just thinking about the obvious easy one when they’re forgetting about some of the other stuff they’re doing

[00:32:15] Jeff Sieh: Mm. So I wanted to know, where’s the line for you that you won’t use AI? So what does AI generally make better, and what will you never, ever hand off to it?

[00:32:26] Jennifer Bennett: Hmm. There’s, there’s a few different things that I will never hand off to AI. One of them is, is I’m not a big perpetuation of anything that has to do with a digital clone, um, and then, also digital pictures. So I will use it to enhance and maybe do some of the fun, you know, videos or things like that.

[00:32:48] Jennifer Bennett: But I won’t have it do full renderings of me. Like I’ll do the fun, you know, like character ones or that kind of stuff, but I will n- never have like photogenic realistic [00:33:00] ones. And like some of the ones on my website, they’re, they’re actual legitimate pictures of me, but I did enhance the backgrounds, with AI.

[00:33:11] Jennifer Bennett: So I… That, that’s the line I’m not willing to cross, just because there’s so many people that are doing avatars and they’re doing clones, and if that’s the line that they’re willing to cross, more power to them. but that’s not one I’m willing to cross

[00:33:24] Jeff Sieh: Yeah. That’s why I love live video, ’cause it’s really hard to fake. Now, I love playing with image generation like we showed, you know, this kind of things I think are fun. But, I’m like with you, I don’t, I don’t wanna do a video clone. I just think that’s a little… One, you don’t wanna clone this.

[00:33:38] Jeff Sieh: That would just, that freaks people out. So, I, I just, that’s kind of the line that I have as well. But one of the questions I wanted to ask you is, you know, people hear AI agent, right? And they’re like, Fable just rolled out back to us this week, and then it’s gonna go away again. But, when they hear this agent, they think, “Okay, this is something super technical and super expensive.”

[00:33:57] Jeff Sieh: but how simple can the first one [00:34:00] actually be? Talk about like somebody who’s like, “I know I need to,” like, “What can I do first in building an agent?” What do you tell them?

[00:34:07] Jennifer Bennett: start with something simple that you don’t mind if it messes up. So if it messing up your calendar is gonna really throw you for a loop, don’t do that. If it’s going to be, you know, the same thing with your email, don’t worry about that. You know, there’s a lot of, friends and mutuals that we know, they post a lot of fun prompts.

[00:34:29] Jennifer Bennett: The first thing that I would encourage people, if they’re even curious about doing AI, is play around with prompting first, because as with anything that works with computers, it has a totally different language than you do, and sometimes you have to teach it what your definition of those words are. like for instance, one of the key phrases that I put into all of my agents is world-class flawless [00:35:00] execution.

[00:35:00] Jennifer Bennett: I then have to explain to it what that actually means in Jennifer Bennett’s terms. So I can’t just say world-class execution, ’cause then it can go and look at all of these people that are way world-class and think, “Okay, well now Jen wants that,” when it’s really, “No, world-class means this.”

[00:35:19] Jeff Sieh: Got it. Yeah, defining, so, and yeah, so that’s one of the things, once again, going back when having it interview you, doing the, like what your core philosophy is. my thing, and it- my AI knows this, is that I would rather lose business than relationships. So relationship is huge to me, my AI knows that, and so everything goes through that filter.

[00:35:38] Jeff Sieh: So that’s what you also have to come up with yourself. the other question I wanted to, what, not a question, but more of a comment that I think is really good ’cause it’s very important, Adam says, “For attorneys, doctors, CEOs, et cetera, giving, you know, access to email or documents hold privacy risks beyond the practitioner.

[00:35:54] Jeff Sieh: AI requires trusting the company and any bad actors they hire.” Yes, that’s, I think we’re gonna see more and more of that [00:36:00] happening, as y- things are gonna come out, things are gonna leak, because they have given it to the AI, and you always have to think about that. I mean, one of the things, one of the things I love about, Magai, and Dustin talked about it in a, a post this week, was that Magai never is giving your data over to train any of these AI systems.

[00:36:17] Jeff Sieh: So if you’re needing some things that are very secure, you know, something like Magai, and th- that’s why they’re also not, doing the Fable model, and there’s a great post about that and why th- but they’re not gonna have that as of now because of some of this privacy stuff. So, it’s very important that you keep that in mind, especially if you’re in, like, healthcare or, like, financial stuff, or even your clients.

[00:36:36] Jeff Sieh: You don’t wanna throw your clients’ stuff up there. I’ve had, like, authors get really bent out of shape when they find their book out on AI or they’re getting quoted inside of there, so you have to be careful. I mean, if you put anything on the web, it’s gonna come out anywhere, anywhere. But, that’s a great point, Adam.

[00:36:49] Jeff Sieh: Thank you for sharing that.

[00:36:51] Jennifer Bennett: Yeah. And, and to, to dive a little bit deeper into that, there are platforms like Perplexity, that have [00:37:00] those HIPAA compliances, those SOC 2s, those higher level securities and those controls. so if that is something that your company needs those security levels, make sure that you’re actually consulting with someone that even knows what those are and how to constrain them, and that they’re, they’re keeping it encapsulated inside of your company as well too.

[00:37:26] Jennifer Bennett: I know, I know several of them have those securities available, but really sit down and read the fine print and understand it. And if you don’t understand the fine print of it, go and find, like a Swiss, security company. I know, I, I work with Proton, Protalon, and they ha- they put out regular documents on who has really good security, which ones have had data breaches, all of that kind of stuff.

[00:37:56] Jennifer Bennett: And so you are educating yourself enough [00:38:00] to even be able to talk to a consultant to know, is this the right one for you or not?

[00:38:07] Jeff Sieh: Dustin has a follow-up comment to, He goes, “Yeah, here’s the thing. So many companies don’t know your staff is using AI whether you know it or not.”

[00:38:15] Jeff Sieh: Mike Alton talks about shadow AI. give them the tools to make sure that they’re using it with privacy activated.

[00:38:20] Jennifer Bennett: and also train them on how to use it. So yes, we give them the tools. Yes, we allow them to have the access, and yes, we, we put the privacy on the backside, but then we also bring in people that can actually train them to actually use it the proper way. Because I don’t know about you guys, but have you guys not seen what, the Amazon employees did when they first launched AI?

[00:38:47] Jennifer Bennett: You know why? Because they launched it, and then they didn’t teach all the people how to use it,

[00:38:52] Jeff Sieh: Right.

[00:38:53] Jeff Sieh: Yeah Yeah

[00:38:54] Jennifer Bennett: And so bring people in that are gonna teach your team and empower your team to use [00:39:00] it effectively so that it, it grows what you want it to grow. Because leadership comes in and they’re like, “This is great.

[00:39:06] Jennifer Bennett: This is gonna make it easier for my staff. We’re gonna grow, you know, our revenue. It’s gonna be great.” But then they miss that middle ground of like, you have to teach the people how to do that, because you’re taking some of the task that those people were doing, and now you’re putting it in AI, and you’re not teaching the people how to train the AI and open up proper feedback loops so that it actually does what it needs to do progressively going forward.

[00:39:34] Jeff Sieh: Yeah. I think that’s a great point. By the way, another great point is our sponsor. We couldn’t do this without Ecamm, and we’re gonna be going to camp with them next week, but we have a quick word from them [00:40:00] Once again, thank you to our sponsor Ecamm. They are awesome. That’s what we use to produce this show. All right, Zac, give us the audience question of the day

[00:40:13] Zac Brown: So it’s kind of a silly question, maybe silly, maybe this seems outside of your realm at the moment, but a thought to, you know, consider. Do you want to get paid to speak someday? Comment yes, no, or maybe. There’s no wrong answers. Just curious to see where you are today

[00:40:31] Jeff Sieh: And you’re going like, “What in the world? Why are they, why are they pivoting to that?” Well, Jennifer has some really cool stuff that we were able to talk a little bit about at, the Wichita conference, Digital Day Wichita, and let’s, let’s dive into it, ’cause, you use AI to do deep research on events, hosts, audiences, before you ever do your speaking pitch, right?

[00:40:50] Jeff Sieh: Like, this is for you to get paid to speak. For a creator who wants to get booked to speak, what does that research actually surface [00:41:00] that they might miss on their own?

[00:41:01] Jennifer Bennett: it researches like the company. So i- you know, we talked a lot about our core values Like for me, one of the biggest ones is family. you know, I’m a third-generation woman entrepreneur, you know, so family integration and things of that nature are super important to me.

[00:41:17] Jennifer Bennett: So I want to be associated with brands that have that culture and that are going to align. So when we’re talking about, you know, doing that kind of research, we’re able to discover, alignment in those core values, in those core missions, you know, to where their mission may a- be adjacent to mine, and to where I’m not putting my brand in jeopardy with being around brands that, that are not in that.

[00:41:46] Jennifer Bennett: and then one of the other really, really cool things, in the process that I have is, is it tells you exactly how to pitch, when to pitch, and also how to build [00:42:00] relationships, ’cause that’s one of the things that, that I love too, I’m real big into relationships too, is how to build relationships on the other side of that.

[00:42:08] Jennifer Bennett: So it’s not just like, “Let’s go connect with this person, and then this is the perfect pitch to give them.” But it then it will also say, “Hey, these, these decision-makers may be, very active on LinkedIn. Go connect with them, and, make it to where they start seeing your content.”

[00:42:26] Jeff Sieh: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:27] Jennifer Bennett: then it’s not only just, hey, I’m getting in their inbox, but now I’m able to push it to where they’re seeing that, oh, this person is aligned with what we’re doing, it’s mission or vision adjacent, all of this different stuff. And so now you can, you can double down on that. So not only are you sending in a CFP or whatever they wanna call it, they call them different things, but now you’re also building that, that relationship side as well.

[00:42:57] Jennifer Bennett: ‘ Cause then you can do deep recon of like, [00:43:00] well, you might find out that one of them likes purple Skittles. You can buy Skittles by the color, okay? So you could do that with M&M’s as well too. But you might find that like this person likes purple. So you can, you can go and you can send that to them. So but you won’t know that if you don’t do this deep research

[00:43:19] Jeff Sieh: yeah, all I had to do was buy Lou Mongello s- sushi, and that was it. Like, I, I have to speak every year now at his conference. real quick before you g- your question, Zac, is and I n- I know you probably get this too, but because I produce Guy K- podcast and of, of this show, and Maker’s Table, and all these different shows, I get pitched a lot.

[00:43:36] Jeff Sieh: And a lot of times the pitches are cold, and you can tell they haven’t even watched the show. They’re like, “Hey,” first name, “How… We would love for you to have this.” Or I have their, or I have their VA contact me like, “Hey, you should try this guy, ’cause he’s great.” For my show, like for Jennifer, I just send her a message like, “Hey, you wanna come on?”

[00:43:55] Jeff Sieh: You know, I, I… My thing is my guests are very organic. They’re people I really, really like. Any time I have [00:44:00] not done that, I’ve been burnt. So, w- does your tool help you with that process? Because I do not like cold pitches, and when you said relationship and helping them, you know, get your content in front of the people that you want to, that was very intriguing to me, because I get so many bad cold pitches

[00:44:18] Jennifer Bennett: Yeah.and you’re pulling from one of the posts that I did on LinkedIn about cold pitching in general. AI has exasperated this to no end. I mean, it, it really has. and so I created an actual email process for one of…

[00:44:37] Jennifer Bennett: for my agent that does that. And so it will read the email, and if it is not somebody that I have regular contact with in my inbox, it will actually send to them that post on LinkedIn and be like, “Hey, this might be helpful for you.” secondly, as far as building relationships, there’s, there’s very minimal [00:45:00] ways to do this.

[00:45:01] Jennifer Bennett: And, yes, you can have tools to s- to start conversations, but even in, the vast majority of my emails, it’s, it’s still me.

[00:45:12] Jennifer Bennett: my, my inbox, my text messages, you know, even on LinkedIn, the vast majority of those are still me. So now, while I might have my comment browser go in and make the initial connections off of, you know, the criteria that I have, that initial message is, is, is sent out, and then the rest of that conversation is me.

[00:45:33] Jennifer Bennett: So, you know, I played around with chatbots even as early as 2010, and the decision trees have gotten a little better, but they still fade. So we’re still, you know, 16 years later, the, the conversation flow for these bots, even with the generative side on there, is still relatively in its infancy.

[00:45:58] Jennifer Bennett: and I’m talking about, like, when I had one for [00:46:00] real estate, I had it to where people could tell me what kind of house they were looking for, what their budget was, and everything like that, and it would pull a web hook and send it to them back in the chat in the Facebook Messenger. So it, it can, in a short essence, to where it’s just getting very little data and then pulling new data.

[00:46:24] Jennifer Bennett: But as far as full on, you know, human-to-human conversations, there’s just a depth that’s just not there yet. and the people that really care about relationships, they’re, they’re, they’re not gonna do that

[00:46:37] Jeff Sieh: Exactly. I think that’s a great point. Zac, final question

[00:46:41] Zac Brown: For someone who has never been paid to speak, how would you use AI to figure out what you’re even qualified to talk about? Like, who would pay to hear what you have to say? How would you get them to that place?

[00:46:54] Jennifer Bennett: so this is assuming that you already have a note taker, and you’ve been doing Zoom calls [00:47:00] and you’ve been meeting with people, for a while. So why not drop those into your AI and have it tell you like, “Hey, what are some of the things that I talk a lot about, that I could probably create a presentation around?”

[00:47:17] Zac Brown: Yeah

[00:47:18] Jennifer Bennett: then go in and again, make sure you, you know, like your mission, your vision, all these different goals and these different things that you have. Otherwise, your AI is not going to be able to help you. it’s going to go haywire because what it’s gonna do is, especially with the vast majority of the AIs, they are still very, very, very much programmed to placate you.

[00:47:42] Jennifer Bennett: So if they don’t have your data to be able to pull from, it’s gonna go and find it.

[00:47:50] Jeff Sieh: Right

[00:47:50] Jennifer Bennett: if it doesn’t have my data on what the core values of Get Desky is, it might find [00:48:00] Jeff’s and just put Jeff’s there

[00:48:02] Jeff Sieh: Which would not be as good. So

[00:48:04] Jennifer Bennett: It would, I mean, they wouldn’t be bad, but they wouldn’t be, they be Get Deskys. they wouldn’t be what, what Jennifer and Darlene’s are. They wouldn’t be. It, that, it just wouldn’t. and, and it shouldn’t. And this is the, the part that a lot of people need to think about is you’ve got to put your core essence into these so that it actually helps you with whatever it is you’re helping it with.

[00:48:29] Jennifer Bennett: You know, the vast majority of the people, they’re like, “Oh my gosh, ChatGPT knows me so well.” No, it really doesn’t.

[00:48:35] Jeff Sieh: Yeah

[00:48:35] Jennifer Bennett: it is just reading the patterns of what you’re telling it

[00:48:39] Jeff Sieh: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. And th- this is thread that goes through this entire conversation is that you need to put that into the memory where A- the AI can access it. So that is the big unlock that took for me. I pretty much did a word vomit using WhisperFlow, which I love, like, changes everything.

[00:48:57] Jeff Sieh: and that’s w- and had it ask me questions for, like, an hour, [00:49:00] and that’s what made AI, like… That was like, okay, it gets me and understands. Now I can have this th- filter to run everything through. so yeah, Dustin even says, “If it doesn’t have your source of truth, it will find it or make it up,” which that’s why you wanna have that truth that you can point to every time.

[00:49:16] Jennifer Bennett: so yes, it needs to have that, but then we gotta go further with that because then we have to tell it that this is the source of truth. Do not go outside of that source of truth. So remember, we’re training an employee. “Okay, this is cool. We do plumbing.

[00:49:29] Jennifer Bennett: These are the vendors we use.” Okay? well these vendors don’t have it. Okay, they have to order it. Okay, we can’t go, we can’t go to Joe Schmoe over here because their parts are crappy.” So if that’s not in there- Yeah … this is where you have to get into that decision tree of like, this is the source of truth.

[00:49:45] Jennifer Bennett: You don’t search the web for this

[00:49:47] Jeff Sieh: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Great stuff. Jennifer, once again, we could talk for hours about this, but this has been amazing. But I wanna give these last couple minutes to you to tell people where they can find you. Maybe they’re interested in, speaking more, [00:50:00] where they can contact you about this speaking process that you have using AI.

[00:50:04] Jeff Sieh: So the floor is now yours

[00:50:06] Jennifer Bennett: Ah, well, I actually made that app live, so anyone who wants to test it out is demo.getdesky.com so they can try it out. They can see exactly how it works on a very simplified version. and then also you guys can connect with me at getdesky.com. I have my socials on there. and I think everybody here is probably connected with me on LinkedIn.

[00:50:30] Jennifer Bennett: That’s where I’m most active. come find me, connect with me, ask me all the questions. I love helping entrepreneurs, and small business owners, get some relief from the admin stuff that these glorious tools can take away.

[00:50:43] Jeff Sieh: Yeah. Very, very cool. And she knows her stuff, as you can tell from the show. I had a great time sitting with her and, and nerding out on AI at the Wichita conference, and I’m sure we’ll, we’ll hang out at some other conferences coming up shortly. But Zac Brown, where can people find the amazing Zac Brown and your brand new stinking book that now [00:51:00] is also on Kindle?

[00:51:01] Zac Brown: Well, you can follow me, @zackbrowncreative on Instagram. I’m also on Facebook. All the links are in the bios there. Would love for you to check out my new book, “An Accidental Education: What I’ve Learned So Far.” Definitely some great takeaways from the many wonderful and weird jobs that I have participated in over the years.

[00:51:19] Jeff Sieh: I highly recommend the book, so guys, go check that out. And everybody, I mean, Dustin, Sean from But Mostly Disney, Rich Graham, of course, he says, “You do manage to get some awesome guests.” but you know what? That’s because I have Thank you guys so much for watching. We’ll see you all next time. Have a great weekend. Happy safe 4th of July for all our American friends. We’ll see you next time. Bye everybody. [00:52:00]

SHOW TRANSCRIPT

This transcript is automatically generated by Descript.  Any errors or omissions are unintentional.

[00:00:00] Matt Stagliano: So if I’m the one that wants to be seen, I just have to make a better product. How do I make a better product?

[00:00:05] Matt Stagliano: I illuminate the guest that comes on, then people will keep coming back to my show. It sounds counterintuitive, but it’s really not. It’s all about making sure that the product that you’re delivering is the best possible product, and people get pretty bored when all you’re doing is talking about yourself over and over and over.

[00:00:29] Jeff Sieh: Hello, folks. Welcome to Creator News Live. I’m Jeff Sieh, and you’re not

[00:00:33] Kira Pogge: and I’m Kira Pogge, and this is the show that keeps you up to date on what’s happening in the creator economy and so much more

[00:00:38] Jeff Sieh: have you ever wondered, the best way to interview? like, when it’s your turn to talk? Or maybe it’s you so good the other person tells you something they had never said out loud before? this might be a little bit uncomfortable. What if the thing holding your interviews, your lives, even your sales calls back is that you talk too much?

[00:00:56] Jeff Sieh: If that sounds like you, it does me a little bit, you are in the [00:01:00] right place

[00:01:00] Kira Pogge: yeah, it sounds like me a little bit too. So I’m really glad that our guest today is Matt Stagliano. He is a portrait photographer from Maine, the way life should be. He’s the host of the Generator podcast and the author of a new book called Speak Less, Get

[00:01:21] Kira Pogge: More. He’s here to teach us his framework for asking better questions, a little bit about how he leverages AI to run his one-person studio, and lessons that he’s learned from over 70 plus conversations with creatives on how to do the real work.

[00:01:26] Jeff Sieh: So sit back, clear your schedule, clear your mind, and get ready for this week’s episode of Creator News Live Awesome, awesome. It, it was a little hard to get your last name to work for the AI. Had a, had a little bit of problem with that one, but it, [00:02:00] it, it came out good in the end, so, very, very cool. Thanks again for being here, Matt. This is gonna be a fun show

[00:02:05] Matt Stagliano: thanks, Jeff. That was great. And it’s, it’s really funny, the AI got my salt and pepper right. I was really actually kind of impressed with it. It made me look better. If I could have that for my headshot, that’d be actually

[00:02:15] Jeff Sieh: Sure, I will send it on. I will send it on. So I wanna jump into it because it seems like, you’re a lot like me, that you, you’ve done a lot of things, you do a lot of things. But one of the questions I had, because, you know, you’re a portrait photographer and your, your photos are stunning, by the way. I just, was really impressed looking at your portfolio.

[00:02:32] Jeff Sieh: But, you know, many times photographers and videographers, you know, they love being behind the camera, but maybe they struggle with being in front of it a little bit. So what made you decide to kinda do that? Like, go to, you know, you have a YouTube channel, you have a podcast, a Generator podcast. So kinda tell us a little bit of the origin story behind that, because I’ve found, like, a lot of times, it’s a little s- bit of a struggle for creatives to get in front of the camera like that.

[00:02:55] Matt Stagliano: Yeah, absolutely. I think self-portraits specifically are [00:03:00] probably one of the most difficult things for photographers to do, right? We live behind the camera. We’re always searching for composition and light and, you know, figuring out what the best pose is gonna be, and all of that when we focus it back on ourselves is one of the most difficult things to do, ’cause we’re not used to looking at ourselves all the time.

[00:03:17] Matt Stagliano: So before I get into a lot of that, ’cause a lot of that parallels interviewing skills, believe it or not. But yeah, I’ve had a really long, varied career. I’ve done just about everything from running nightclubs to biotech to teaching high school physics to high tech and doing mergers and acquisitions, and then back in 2010, kind of left the entire corporate world and dove into photography and did commercial work and a lot of, product work in coverage and editorial for magazines and whatnot for a lot of years in the defense industry, and then moved my way over to portraiture, which I’ve been doing since about 2018.

[00:03:55] Matt Stagliano: And I say all of that because every one of those [00:04:00] careers helps you understand people more. By understanding people more, I’ve learned to understand myself more. So I know what it feels like to be weird and fearful in front of the camera and have all that apprehension when you’re about to get photographed, and when you turn it on yourself, you feel all of that, and then you get overwhelmed with empathy for the other person in front of the camera.

[00:04:24] Matt Stagliano: So as a photographer, I am drawing from all of my experience in seeing other people be uncomfortable, seeing how I deal with it with them, and then giving myself all that self-talk back, right? “It’s not that bad. You’re beautiful the way you are. You’re… This is exactly the moment that you’re supposed to be here.”

[00:04:41] Matt Stagliano: So in order for me to, you know, take self-portraits or do all of these different things, writing, photography, AI, I’ve got to look at what I do with other people and just reflect it back on myself. So I don’t know if that really answered your question, but that’s the whole origin [00:05:00] story and why I kind of do the things that I do today.

[00:05:03] Jeff Sieh: Hmm. I think that’s great. Kiri, I know you had a question

[00:05:05] Kira Pogge: yeah. I, you know, the, the whole book is kind of based on this PODS framework. Is that something that has been informed, like you said, by your portrait photography and all of this history? Kind of where did that come from? And can you walk us through, like, what it’s like right before you hit record with a guest and you’re doing that framework yourself?

[00:05:23] Matt Stagliano: Yeah, absolutely. So the PODS framework, right? It’s, and this is part of the marketing aspect, right? talking of interviewing, make PODS sound like podcast, right? But I was really looking at what is it that I do that makes my interviews stand out a little bit differently than other people. And I never really thought about it until I sat down and I started thinking about, all right, well, I want to write the top 10 tips for people to be better at podcasting.

[00:05:50] Matt Stagliano: And I’m writing down the questions so I don’t forget. I go circuitous around answers, but I get there eventually. So with the PODS framework, when I started [00:06:00] interviewing people, my first interview was with, the lead singer of Arrested Development. His name’s Speech. And I was in, this must have been like 1994, thereabouts, and it was a college radio station, and I was interviewing, and it was awful.

[00:06:13] Matt Stagliano: It was terrible. It was the worst interview ever. I was just like starstruck. Did you ever see, like, Chris Farley when he’s interviewing Paul McCartney and he’s like, “Oh, the Beatles, that was, that was awesome.” That’s kind of how I was at the beginning, right? So as the time went on and I did television and I did radio and I started doing photography, I realized that all of the interactions that I was having got better when I shut up and I just started listening to what people were telling me.

[00:06:44] Matt Stagliano: Just thinking about paying attention and giving them the moment So when I sat down to write the book, it really started as a pamphlet. What are 10 things that I’ve learned over the past 30 years that I can give to other people because they don’t know how to [00:07:00] do this, this, this skill of interviewing, of talking to people?

[00:07:03] Matt Stagliano: And it’s really not that hard. We’ve been talking our whole lives. But what we find is that it’s easy to have a conversation. It’s hard to build the scaffolding around it. And when we want to package it together as a content creator, we’ve got to put some guardrails in place, or else we’re just going to drift off into some nether world.

[00:07:23] Matt Stagliano: So the PODS framework stands for Preparation, Orientation, Discovery, and Sendoff. And think of it not as specific scripts that you have to follow, but as jobs for each part of the interview process. So preparation is first. That comes before you ever turn a microphone on. Researching a guest, learning about them, trying to find the things that they don’t talk about, right?

[00:07:47] Matt Stagliano: really diving deep, using your Google fu and finding all of these places where you can gather information. Once you have that information, what I do is I feed it into AI, and I get [00:08:00] back a condensed list looking for this kind of thread through all of these different things that the guest has done. The orientation part is the beginning of the podcast.

[00:08:11] Matt Stagliano: Basically what we’re doing here, right? If you start an interview and just go boom, into question one, there’s no way for the audience to kinda get to know the guest. There’s no way for the guest to warm up and build trust and build rapport with the interviewer, ’cause a lot of times, let’s face it, we’re doing this, you know, we haven’t had a chance to talk for hours and hours and hours beforehand, right?

[00:08:32] Matt Stagliano: So you’ve gotta have that orientation period. The discovery phase is like, that’s the meat of the interview. This is where you fall into a natural rhythm. The guest is giving you what you want out of this, and the audience is starting to get an emotional reaction to what the guest has said, whether that’s wonder or disappointment or, you know, excitement, whatever it is.

[00:08:59] Matt Stagliano: And then [00:09:00] the sendoff is the way to land the plane in an interview. And those last five, 10 minutes are really the most important part, because what you’re doing is you’re tying everything back up. You’re letting the g- the guest know that we’re coming in for a landing, that you’ve been listening, and that your audience is getting what they came to get.

[00:09:22] Matt Stagliano: A lot of times you listen to a podcast and they say, “Oh, we’re out of time. There’s nothing left. We gotta go. Thanks for joining us.” Right? But where’s the payoff? Where’s the emotion at the end to say, “Wow, that was amazing”? That’s what I want to have happen at the end of an interview. I don’t want people to remember my questions I want to remember the emotion and the feelings that they got from listening to this conversation

[00:09:42] Jeff Sieh: Yeah. So I wanna talk about your, I mean, you’ve been mention- the PODS is in the book. It’s a big part of the book. I think, and I’m not, I’m not blowing smoke, but for the stuff that we do, I think they should make this on Captivate. If you, you start of a c- account on Captivate, you wanna start a podcast or a live show, that you have to read this book [00:10:00] first.

[00:10:00] Jeff Sieh: I think that they won’t give you the codes. Because, this book, The Audience Is Listening by Tom Webster and, Dave Jackson’s, Profit From Your Podcast, I think those are required reading before you think about doing a podcast, and your book is right up there. I mean, it, it has such good, information.

[00:10:15] Jeff Sieh: I wish I would’ve had it before I started my show. In fact, I told Kira before the show, I’m like, “I’m a little nervous about th- interviewing an expert about interviewing, because I see so many bad things that I have done.” So, you describe, like, two ways hosts fail: over-performance, where you’re so locked into those prepared questions you miss a real moment, and then you have another one called drift, where there is no, like, spine at all.

[00:10:39] Jeff Sieh: So where do you see more? Is there one that, like, hosts kinda go to when they first get started more than the others, and, and how, how do you catch yourself doing it and fixing it?

[00:10:48] Matt Stagliano: Yeah. And just to get back to your, to your first part of that comment, which is, you know, you wish you had this, so do I. The entire book is just me… It’s a resume of everything I’ve ever screwed up, right? [00:11:00] And how to fix it. And that’s really the way that I look at it. It’s a field manual for getting better at this stuff.

[00:11:05] Matt Stagliano: Now, when it comes to over-performance versus drift, I think it really depends on where you are in your life cycle of being an interviewer. Because what I see is newer interviewers, they drift more because they don’t have the scaffolding, they don’t have a plan in place, and they’re just excited to be there with the microphone on.

[00:11:25] Matt Stagliano: And they wander, and there’s a lot of uhs and ahs, and tell me about that, and then they fall into this point where they’re talking about themselves, and then it wanders over here. That’s drift, and that’s really just inexperience and lack of preparation. What I see most, though, is the over-performance, and I see that a lot because I’m shown by my algorithm daddy all of the podcasts that it thinks I’m interested in.

[00:11:52] Matt Stagliano: So I’m seeing higher-level podcasts, and I see over-performance because the host typically [00:12:00] makes it about them, right? They want to show their intelligence, their expertise. They want to show that they’ve done the research, and they have the really smart questions, and that they’re the ones that the audience came to see, and they’re not.

[00:12:13] Matt Stagliano: So they over-perform and over-perform and over-perform. And some people can get away with that because of charisma or charm or whatnot, but when I’m listening to a podcast because I’m interested in the guest, well, I already know that Jeff hosts an amazing podcast and that his audience is all about creators.

[00:12:33] Matt Stagliano: I know his resume and pedigree. I don’t know the guests, and I want to learn about them. So if Jeff spends, you know, 58 of the 60 minutes talking, what am I gonna get from it? So as I started to, I guess, research, pay more attention to podcasts and interviews that I was watching as I was writing this book, I realized that the people that we often hold in the highest regard are the ones [00:13:00] giving us the least, and the ones that are the industry veterans, the, the Terry Gross of, you know, NPR World, they’re there after 30, 40, 50 years because they’ve mastered the skill of balancing the emotion and getting the information from the guest and keeping the questions short and just driving the conversation in a way that is interesting and unique.

[00:13:25] Matt Stagliano: And I love that. I don’t like being able to predict what the next 60 minutes is gonna sound like.

[00:13:30] Kira Pogge: Yeah, and I think this, kind of like a perfect segue in, you’re talking about, you know, speak less, get more. And in your book you say, “Silence is not your enemy.” And you have this rule about taking three beats, right? After, after a question or after the guest is finished speaking to allow them to kind of continue.

[00:13:48] Kira Pogge: and I wonder if you could talk about that a little bit more, because I feel like it’s so easy to fill silence, especially nowadays when we have… The minute we’re in an elevator or a bus or anywhere that it is silent, we pull out our phone, [00:14:00] right? So what does that look like, and was that a hard thing for you to start practicing?

[00:14:06] Kira Pogge: How do people get comfortable with that?

[00:14:07] Matt Stagliano: And right there was that silence, right? And if I’m interviewing someone, and I wanted people to hear that, right? but I wanted people to hear it because research has shown that anything more than a, a, a second and a half dramatically increases the amount of additional information that you’re going to get from your guest, right?

[00:14:32] Matt Stagliano: Because why is that? We’ve been conditioned and we’ve grown up to believe that dead air is a bad thing, right? You’ve always got all of these DJs, and they’re always filling all the space with all the words because they can’t have dead air. So when we’re faced with dead air or just silence, it’s uncomfortable.

[00:14:48] Matt Stagliano: We don’t know what to do. And what I found and what shifted for me was when I realized if I just shut my mouth once in a while and didn’t dive in to ask the [00:15:00] next question or to add my insight or show how smart I am, that the guest would give me better stuff back ’cause they were like, “Oh, maybe he’s waiting for more.

[00:15:10] Matt Stagliano: Maybe I’ll give them more.” And they start to go a little bit deeper. All of that is built on the trust and rapport that you build with your guests starting up. If you just say, “Hey, my guest is Matt Stagliano,” and then stare at the camera, right, we have nowhere to go. We have no idea what to do. So I think it’s a, it’s a useful skill, especially when you’re paying attention, you know you’re pulling on that good thread that the guest is, is going down this road, and you wanna get just a little bit more.

[00:15:37] Matt Stagliano: By just staying silent or letting it hang for a little bit often invites the guest to give you something a little bit more real, a little bit deeper, and it can take the conversation in a direction that you never expected to go

[00:15:49] Jeff Sieh: I wanna do a follow-up to that because I think it’s really important, and you mention that in the book as well, and this goes to kind of w- something we’ll maybe talk about a little bit later, but the, the, post-production after your show is [00:16:00] done. A lot of these tools, especially Descript, ’cause that’s what we edit everything in Descript now, we’re big fans of that.

[00:16:05] Jeff Sieh: With these AI tools now, there’s a really easy way to, like, remove silence, right? And it will go and it’ll cut those things out, So even for this show and even for Guy’s show, I’ll use, like, take the ums and ahs out. I mean, th- those are some really…

[00:16:16] Jeff Sieh: I mean, unless it’s right in front of a word or an edit. but if you click that easy button where you remove everything, it becomes robotic. I really love what you said because it’s, it gives the thing to breathe, and when we’re talking in a conversation, if Kira says something profound, I’m not gonna jump right into it unless I’m a jerk.

[00:16:31] Jeff Sieh: You know, I’m gonna take a beat, process, and, and th- that’s art. That’s the art of editing, I think. D- just explain a little bit more about that, because you mention that in your book as well

[00:16:41] Matt Stagliano: yeah. And it’s, editing is where you can really make or break a podcast. And I love the fact that we’re now coming back to the point where we want authenticity. We want mistakes, right? The yapping is a thing because we want to know people [00:17:00] for really who they are. So when it comes to editing in podcasts or interviews of any sort, and I’m talking different than a corporate produced marketing interview style video.

[00:17:09] Matt Stagliano: When we’re talking podcasts and interviews like this, I used to take out everything that was probably more than .4 seconds out, tighten it all up, tighten it all up, tighten it all up. And that would take me hours to go through ’cause I’m a, I’m a real stickler and I would go through Final Cut and I’d really find every gap and I’d take it out.

[00:17:29] Matt Stagliano: And I realized that it, like you said, sounded robotic and it was wasting a ton of time. So rather than doing prerecorded interviews, I shifted my entire workflow and I now go live for the majority of my interviews. Why? Because it’s live to tape, I can stream it, people can watch it as it happens. But then on the audio side, I don’t have to really edit anything.

[00:17:52] Matt Stagliano: If I keep the interview moving, and provided there are no technical glitches or someone doesn’t drop an F-bomb on a child’s podcast, [00:18:00] like things like that, right? Stuff you have to take out. I leave it as is because in that silence, in those pauses, in those moments where someone’s thinking, is an inherent beauty of the conversation, and it’s the natural rhythm that we fall into.

[00:18:16] Matt Stagliano: If I start to get really fast and not have any spaces in any of my, my sentences, that drives the interview a different way than if I’m sitting back and I’m being thoughtful and maybe I drop my register down a little bit and we talk a little bit more slowly about something more serious. I think when you’re changing the dynamics in post like that, and Opus Clips does it, Descript does it, Time Bolt does it, right?

[00:18:40] Matt Stagliano: There’s all these programs out there that can reduce the time between words. All they’re really trying to do is save you time editing. But what they’re doing is taking the soul out of the actual conversation. That’s the way that I look at it

[00:18:53] Jeff Sieh: I totally agree. and another point with, about your book that, uh, both Kira and I loved, and we talked about [00:19:00] this at the start of the show before you, before you jumped on, is there was a, a phrase that you used, and I thought, and you, and you just, you alluded to it at the start of the show. But you called it, the mindset shift between

[00:19:11] Jeff Sieh: spotlight to lantern, and I thought that was so good because we’ve all seen those shows where you can tell the host is just waiting to talk.

[00:19:19] Jeff Sieh: Like, he’s not listening. He’s read- He, he’s, he’s just ready to jump in and give his call to action and all that stuff. but I, I really resonated with the host stops being the star and starts illuminating the guest. We try to do that the best we can here, but it’s, we can always do better. And for someone whose business depends on being seen, how do you balance that by pointing the light at someone else?

[00:19:41] Matt Stagliano: Yeah, the spotlight to lantern thing was something that came through me learning about myself, right? And I think a lot of us, especially in the creator economy, we want attention. We wanna be seen, right? We wanna be famous. We want the views, we want the vanity numbers. So when we start interviewing, [00:20:00] a lot of times we wanna make it about us.

[00:20:02] Matt Stagliano: We wanna build the community and the audience because they’re here to see us. They wanna come to The Matt Stagliano Show, right? And what I realized is that the better thing that I could do is bring this lantern illumination approach to the guest rather than a spotlight on me. And the reason that works is because if I can illuminate the guest and what they’re talking about, that’s actually going to benefit me.

[00:20:30] Matt Stagliano: Because, like I mentioned earlier, the audience is going to realize, “Hey, this guy’s asking good questions. I feel something from this interview. I don’t have to be listening to what Matt says, but I know that he’s gonna make me hear something that I hadn’t heard before. He’s gonna make the guest go somewhere they haven’t gone before.”

[00:20:49] Matt Stagliano: And I’m always after that emotional reaction in a conversation rather than just the same patent information that they can get anywhere. So a lot of the, [00:21:00] the lantern concept is going to come back to me in a positive light. So if I’m the one that wants to be seen, I just have to make a better product. How do I make a better product?

[00:21:11] Matt Stagliano: I illuminate the guest that comes on, then people will keep coming back to my show. It sounds counterintuitive, but it’s really not. It’s all about making sure that the product that you’re delivering is the best possible product, and people get pretty bored when all you’re doing is talking about yourself over and over and over.

[00:21:31] Matt Stagliano: If you can keep things interesting and police the conversation in a way that keeps bringing it back to the North Star, as I call it, the point that you want people to take away from the interview, if you can tie everybody back into that, it becomes a much different style of conversation, and people will start to tell other folks, “You’ve gotta hear what he said on this.

[00:21:54] Matt Stagliano: You’ve gotta see the types of interviews that he does.” that’s the em- the emotion that I want. So [00:22:00] I had to shift from myself to glorifying other people, and that works for me

[00:22:04] Jeff Sieh: Hmm.

[00:22:04] Kira Pogge: And I feel like the, interesting part of that is it’s beautiful, like you say, it’s the North Star. If you look at that quote before you go into an interview, I think it’s such a beautiful reminder, like shine the lantern, shine the lantern. Just keep thinking of that. And I’m wondering, for those people who are listening who are podcasters or content creators that are interviewing others, can you share a little bit about the moment with Nicole York that you shared, where she talks about having anxiety attacks, and the lantern kind of goes away for a moment.

[00:22:33] Kira Pogge: You know, what did that moment teach you, and how do you recover from that? If you catch yourself in the middle of an interview going, “Ooh, I should have maybe brought that lantern back onto the guest and spent more time there,” what do we do then?

[00:22:45] Matt Stagliano: Yeah. First, I need you to get out of my head because I say, “Ooh, I shouldn’t have done that,” about 30 times every interview, right? Nicole York is probably one of the smartest people I’ve ever met. She’s an author. she writes under the name Nicole McKee, and she does [00:23:00] gaslamp fantasy stuff. She’s a prolific author, and she’s truly one of the most brilliant people I know.

[00:23:04] Matt Stagliano: And for a lot of years, it started in COVID, we ran a daily podcast for a couple of hours on Clubhouse called The Artist Forge, and there were four or five of us, and we would have these really deep discussions about creativity and philosophy every single day for years. So I got to know Nicole really well.

[00:23:22] Matt Stagliano: When COVID died down and I started Generator, which was really just an offshoot of The Artist Forge, having the same types of conversations, she came on and she was one of my first guests, and because I knew her so well, I had good information to go off of, and I think I took some of that for granted because of our relationship The moment that happened was we were talking about imposter syndrome and why so many creators, you know, carry that with them, even though they shouldn’t have it.

[00:23:51] Matt Stagliano: And we were talking about it, and I asked her, and I forget the exact question, but it was something along the lines of, “Do you have imposter, you know, imposter syndrome?” And she said, and it [00:24:00] was somewhat sly, I don’t know if it comes across in the book, but it was somewhat sly. She’s like, “No, I have anxiety attacks.”

[00:24:04] Matt Stagliano: And then, you know, I said, “Yeah, that’s funny. Okay, great. Next question.” Instead of pulling on that thread a little bit and just having some shared experience and saying, “You know what? I have anxiety attacks probably 37 times a day whenever I go to do something in front of a camera.” So why not have that discussion a little bit more with her?

[00:24:25] Matt Stagliano: Dig in there, pull on that thread a little bit. Because those are the moments that your audience is going to connect to, and it’s what changes an audience to a community, because now you have people that are relating in a different way. And we can all go out and research YouTube and watch interviews and see stuff on Google and get a good impression of someone, but when you’re hearing something that they haven’t talked about before, and in that case, Nicole was talking about her anxiety attacks, if you don’t explore that a little bit, you’re doing a disservice to your community because they’re there for that [00:25:00] type of content.

[00:25:01] Matt Stagliano: And that was the moment that I realized, ah. And it was only in hindsight. It was during the editing where I’m, I’m going through it and I go, “I missed a big moment there.” So it happens. It happens all the time to the best of us. There are times where I’m listening to Mike Rowe or, you know, Terry Gross or even Sean Evans on Hot Ones, right?

[00:25:20] Matt Stagliano: I’ll, I’ll listen and I’m like, “Ah, I wish they dug in a little bit further.” And only through repetition do you start to learn like, okay, just forget about asking the next question, listen to what’s being said, and follow that thread until the end of it, and then you can switch the topic

[00:25:37] Jeff Sieh: that’s one of the reasons I love live is because once you start doing it and have done it for a while, that you can pull in people who watch regularly, like we have. In fact, I’m gonna do it right now ’cause we have some, one of our friends who shows up almost every week, Mr. Dustin Stout, says, “Now that I think about it, on- the only podcasts I really listen to are recorded without editing, like a live stream.”

[00:25:57] Jeff Sieh: And then, we have the amazing Miss Jill [00:26:00] saying, “So happy to catch this live.” And then we have the Ecamm fam saying, “We love Matt.” Yes, so the, one of the cool things is, is, the online community, when you do a live show, you can pull up and have this immediate feedback, which is so much fun. But I was so excited to have Matt on, I forgot to talk about the sponsor of the show, which of course is Ecamm.

[00:26:20] Jeff Sieh: You can find out more about them at ecamm.com/jeff, and we actually have a word from our sponsor That’s right, the amazing folks at Ecamm, they are awesome. And by the way, they have a camp coming up next month, coming up really quickly in the Chicago area. You, it’s, uh, right before Mac Stock on July 9th. I’ll be there speaking as, as well as the amazing [00:27:00] folks at Ecamm, and just such a good roundup of people.

[00:27:03] Jeff Sieh: It’s gonna be so… I learn so much just by being there. So if you’re gonna be in the Crystal Lake Chicago area, make sure you check it out July 9th, coming up next month. We would love to see you there. You can find out more at ecamm.com/camp. All righty, one of the things I wanted to ask kind of our, audience, really quickly is that, you know, we’re gonna talk about AI and, and specifically AI for using and building a show.

[00:27:26] Jeff Sieh: So where are you guys at with AI? Are you all in? Are you dabbling with it or haven’t even started yet? So, down in the comments, wherever you’re watching from, say, “All in,” “I’m dabbling,” or “Haven’t started.” I am all in. I love it. Uh, I’m gonna nerd out with, Matt here, I’m sure, about his processes, because he alluded to a lot of it in his book, and if, if he’s anything like me, that’s always changing.

[00:27:48] Jeff Sieh: You’re always adding stuff and, and kind of tweaking the system. So let’s talk about that a little bit. When did you start, using AI? Was it mostly in your interview prep, research, all that stuff? Like, how did that kind of [00:28:00] start transforming the way you prepare for a show?

[00:28:02] Matt Stagliano: Yeah, I resisted AI for a really long time, especially in the podcast space, right? And I think I’ve been tied in with ChatGPT and Claude for a couple of years now, and I feel like it’s just part of my life, right? I’m all in on AI with the exception of generative stuff, and that’s only because it’s a, it’s a choice being a photographer, I’d rather do it with my camera.

[00:28:25] Matt Stagliano: Purely my choice, but I see the power in it, right? With, with podcasting specifically, I realized that I needed something to help me get my time back. I was spending, for one episode, I was spending upwards of 10, 12 hours a week either prepping or editing that one 45 minute to 60 minute episode, and that was just way too much time.

[00:28:48] Matt Stagliano: So how do I make it faster? And I started looking at the tools, the large language models, and realizing, you know, I’m kind of monogamous with, with Claude. He’s in some, you know, open relationship with me, but I [00:29:00] tend to be a one, one LLM type of person. And ChatGPT wasn’t giving me what I wanted. When I moved over to Claude and it seemed to have a bit more of the semantics that I liked, a bit more of a human feel, if you will, which is kind of weird to say

[00:29:15] Jeff Sieh: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:15] Matt Stagliano: I said, “How can I use the power of this to condense all of my notes?”

[00:29:20] Matt Stagliano: Now, I wasn’t in Claude Code at the time. They didn’t have Claude Cowork at the time. I just said, “I’ve got all these links and all this information about Jeff. How do I collate it together? Is that something you can do?” And it would spit out, you know, three pages of kind of gobbledygook. And then I learned more about prompting, about how to manage the language model, how to set it up to sound like me, and in doing all that prep work, I could now use it as an employee rather than just a robot that I feed things to.

[00:29:51] Matt Stagliano: So to make a very long story sh- of trial and error very short, what it came down to was I said, “All right, I need [00:30:00] another framework,” right? Everything in my world is systems and workflows and frameworks. I need a framework that’s repeatable for me, that gives me the things that I need for my show, that give me the latitude to have the conversations that I want to have.

[00:30:14] Matt Stagliano: So the way that I use AI to build out my show is I say, “Okay.” I go out and I learn everything that I can about my guest, and I write down the links. I use, you know, Apple Notes or Notion or whatever, and I dump everything in there. And then I say, “All right, Claude, take this. I want five narrative arcs,” right?

[00:30:34] Matt Stagliano: I want an opening. I want a middle arc. I want to find this common thread that is the North Star. I want those narrative arcs to always come back to the North Star, and then I want 10 to 20 questions per narrative arc that I can ask. Then I look at that, and it spits that out. I look at that, and I cross it out, and I edit it, and I change it all up again, and I just keep refining, keep refining.

[00:30:56] Matt Stagliano: By the end of it, I have a one-sheet that I can pull [00:31:00] up at any time if I feel like the conversation is drifting off or I haven’t covered something, or it’s just a reminder that, oh yeah, I gotta ask them about muscle cars or whatever it might be I do that, then I can sit back and just have the conversation, ’cause I’ve done the preparation.

[00:31:17] Matt Stagliano: And because I’ve read it so many times and written it so many times, it’s already kind of imprinted up here in the melon. So all I have to do now is trust myself to listen for the moment and then explore that with the guest. I find that people overprepare and under-listen. They just wanna ask the most pertinent question or the most intelligent question, and they’re not listening to what’s actually happening.

[00:31:43] Matt Stagliano: And I kinda, you know, someone asked me this question before about preparing and preparing and why do you do so much prep before the interview? And I kinda likened it to Special Forces soldiers that train and train and train and train and train until everything becomes muscle memory, so that when they’re [00:32:00] faced with a situation, they have more time to just think and make good decisions and act appropriately rather than fumbling with the equipment in front of them.

[00:32:10] Matt Stagliano: So for me, I wanna do as much preparation as I can in advance so that I have more room to think and decide and act in the moment when it arrives

[00:32:20] Jeff Sieh: Totally

[00:32:21] Kira Pogge: I do think that’s what Claude is so good at, is, like, helping with that research, that, that dialing down. But when you talk about the trial and error, that’s a place I think a lot of people get stuck, and then they jump off of AI, ’cause they trial and error a couple times, it feels really overwhelming, and then they’re just like, “I don’t know how to use this thing.”

[00:32:41] Kira Pogge: So for small business owners or, or creators who are listening, can you talk about, like, where they go wrong in those first trial and error moments, that, like, first week of trying it? And share a little bit more about your product, that you have about getting good with Claude and what that really means for them

[00:32:57] Matt Stagliano: Yeah. Getting good at Claude [00:33:00] doesn’t mean you have to be a coder or a developer or even a prompt engineer. Uh, right? Is that a, is that a job, a prompt engineer? so getting good at Claude, getting good at any AI means you have to look at it a little bit differently, and I’ll, I’ll make this specifically for small business owners, but I think it applies to anybody.

[00:33:18] Matt Stagliano: You can go into AI and approach it as a tool. This is a thing that I have to learn. This is a big, scary beast. I’m not technical. I don’t have any technological skills. I’m scared of it. I can barely get into incognito mode without screwing something up. I don’t know what I’m doing. And I think we look at it that way, and we dump in the biggest, hardest possible thing we c- I want you to create an entire content system for me And we haven’t given it any parameters about who we are, so it spits out something and it’s not worth anything. Instead of treating the LLM like [00:34:00] an employee that you just hired by saying, “All right. Here’s what I’m gonna do. I know you’ve got all this intelligence, all this skill. I’m gonna give you a task, you’re gonna do it, and it’s gonna come back to me. I’ll give you feedback, and then you’re gonna try it again.”

[00:34:12] Matt Stagliano: But you don’t hire someone if they don’t know anything about your company or what it does. So you have to build that foundation within your large language model of who you are, what your business does, what it sounds like, what your goals look like, so that everything that you do from that point on, it’s got that contextual understanding of what it is that your business actually provides.

[00:34:37] Matt Stagliano: When you can frame it like that and utilize the different aspects and strengths and weaknesses of the LLM, you get much better output. Now, and here’s where it applies to small business owners, most small business owners came from a large business at one point in time. They were managed by somebody. And depending on the size of their business, they may or may not manage [00:35:00] someone now.

[00:35:00] Matt Stagliano: But those skills are transferable between the business and the employees that they have now, and talking to Claude or talking to Gemini or ChatGPT. If you treat it like an employee where you’re giving it valuable feedback, keeping it within the parameters, and driving towards the same goals that you have, now you start to get better output.

[00:35:21] Matt Stagliano: So when I’m using that for my interviews, whether I’m using it for my own marketing or as a thinking partner, I don’t look at Claude anymore as this robot that has to spit out information. I argue with it, I thank it, right? I talk to it like an employee. I’ve managed hundreds of employees in my corporate career.

[00:35:42] Matt Stagliano: The skills are no different in guiding someone to get better and grow into their position, and that’s all I’m doing, is I’m growing Claude to be a team that works underneath me with very specific instructions and a very specific set of goals catered to my voice and my business. And I think [00:36:00] that’s what people miss.

[00:36:00] Matt Stagliano: They think of it as this big, scary technology instead of looking at it as a hire that they have to train.

[00:36:07] Jeff Sieh: So I wanna pull this thread a little bit of, AI in your business, ’cause w- y- we’ve been talking in your books really about, you know, podcasting, live video, that kind of stuff. But I would … I’m really interested, too, a little tangent here, of how are you using it in your portrait photography? I mean, you mentioned not using it for generative stuff, which totally understandable, but how are you using it in your systems over in that portrait side?

[00:36:30] Matt Stagliano: So the thing that I love about AI is it gives me the chance to spend less time on the business part of work and more time with the camera in my hand, listening to the person in front of me, trying to bring out the side of them that they want the world to see, right? That’s the whole goal of this, and it’s mainly because I can’t afford to hire somebody.

[00:36:53] Matt Stagliano: So what do I use AI for? I use it to build my websites. I build in Claude Code, which [00:37:00] interfaces with WordPress and with my Captivate and with YouTube, and it collates everything together and I build all my websites. I use it to build my marketing materials, to put together podcast research, to do research on what’s trending from other creators, what’s happening.

[00:37:18] Matt Stagliano: I use it to track all of my SEO and interface. I use Ahrefs as my SEO, application. So I have an MCP server that connects directly to Ahrefs and can give me SEO reports. I’ve built out a team of agents, well, agents in Claude, that have specific goals. There is a software developer, there’s a chief of staff, there’s a, a copywriter, there’s an editor, and all of those different skills, for lack of better terms, are applied at different gates in my process.

[00:37:50] Matt Stagliano: So if I say write an email, okay, it’ll write an email, but it has to go through the copywriter, and then it has to go through the editor in chief, and then it goes to the chief of [00:38:00] staff because all of those gates need to check, does it sound like me? Is it giving correct information? And nothing ever gets sent without human approval or human eyes.

[00:38:10] Matt Stagliano: What it does, it saves me all the time of sitting down and going, “All right, Jeff wants to come in on June 19th. all right, where does he live? What does he wanna do? Let’s put together this mood board,” right? It gives me the chance to do all of that in a few minutes and then spend more time with my client, and that’s the trade-off.

[00:38:29] Matt Stagliano: I’m gonna produce the images. All the other stuff that takes up all my time as a business owner, my QuickBooks, all that, I use AI to just move through it faster. I still have to do the work, but I can move through it a lot faster

[00:38:41] Jeff Sieh: you and I need to have an offline session where we just nerd out about Claude and, and what we’re doing sometime because it, it really has changed a lot for me. It’s the same, even the show prep stuff, like something that for my Friday show, at, uh, Thursday I would, you know, spend all day getting it ready, getting the questions, really doing research.

[00:38:58] Jeff Sieh: Now it’s basically, it’s [00:39:00] sh- shrunk it to less than a half a day, but I still have the same output. I mean, it, it writes the lyrics for my songs to look at before I put them in s- I mean, all that stuff. So it, it is a game changer. But I’m really interested, you know, you’re a creative. You’re, you’re not an engineer.

[00:39:14] Jeff Sieh: Uh, you’re, you weren’t a coder. So what finally made AI click for you, and, and what’s the mindset shift that gets, like, a non-technical owner or business owner, like, over that hump?

[00:39:24] Matt Stagliano: I, I think it, you know, like I mentioned a few minutes ago, it’s, it’s changing that mindset to looking at it not as a human, because I don’t want to start to anthropomorphize something that I know is just a collection of all of us. But what I like to look at is say Do you want this AI, this la- large language model to sound like you?

[00:39:43] Matt Stagliano: Do you want it to be a thinking partner? If so, then you have to treat it in a different way than you would an application, than you would Final Cut, right? You go into Final Cut and I’m like, “All right, I got these key commands, and I gotta do these seven things.” For Claude, I use it to ask [00:40:00] it questions about things I don’t know, right?

[00:40:03] Matt Stagliano: Teach me how to do this. Hey, I… Man, it’s been a long time since I made music. There have been a lot of updates. What are people using now? Is it Logic? Is it Pro Tools? Is it Reason? Like, what are people using? And then teach me about the cycle of fifths, right? ‘Cause I forget all that theory from college. Let me learn how to do that.

[00:40:22] Matt Stagliano: People forget that you can ask questions and get results back that improve your next question. So when I’m interacting with Claude, I’m doing things out of a place of I don’t know how to do this, I need to learn more, I don’t have the time to look through all of Google to figure out how to fix my snowblower, but I can upload all of the manuals, and it can save me time by asking it the question, saying, “You’ve got all the context now.

[00:40:51] Matt Stagliano: Give me the answer.” So I think, you know, for the non-technical people, it’s removing that fear of technology [00:41:00] and just saying, “We’re gonna have a conversation with this person.” Like going out to a networking event, and you have that weird small talk at the beginning, and you kind of get the answers you’re expecting.

[00:41:09] Matt Stagliano: But the more time you spend with that person, the more you get to know them, and now you develop this kind of semantic relationship of what it can do and what it can’t do. So when people are starting to approach this, all I say is go back to that analogy of a networking meeting, a new hire, right? It’s going to take some time for the language model to learn about you the same way you’re learning about it and its capabilities.

[00:41:36] Matt Stagliano: It’s the smartest infant ever. We just have to teach it how to crawl, and then how to walk, and then how to run. And then suddenly, you know, this, this large language model is your kind of ride or die, you know? They’re just kind of hanging out with you all the time. So that’s the way that I approach it, but it’s not something where you press an easy button and it all happens overnight.

[00:41:58] Matt Stagliano: It’s something that [00:42:00] takes time. I’ve been doing this for years, and I just built an app, like a teleprompter app, just because I, I haven’t coded since my old high tech days. And I was like, “Uh, I don’t wanna spend time coding. I wanna build something that I don’t have. How quickly can I do it?” And it was a big learning experience, but it was great.

[00:42:20] Matt Stagliano: I made a ton of mistakes. The product is okay at best But I learned a lot in there about what Claude can do and what it can’t do, and how to set up repositories, and how to use Claude Code, and how to do version branches. And so the things that I’m getting from it are less about the end output and more about what are my interactions?

[00:42:40] Matt Stagliano: What do I like and don’t like? I don’t want to build an entire content system. I want to get a morning brief. What’s on my calendar today? What are the emails that I have to respond to because they’re revenue generating? Those are the things that I want my LLM to tell me without having to ask. Run [00:43:00] a chronological job and have it spit that out every morning at 7:00 AM.

[00:43:03] Matt Stagliano: So when I’m doom scrolling in bed and I get off of TikTok, I can look at, all right, I actually have to go on Jeff’s podcast today and do this,

[00:43:09] Jeff Sieh: Get up, brush your teeth, man. Come on.

[00:43:11] Matt Stagliano: There it is, right? Eventually put pants

[00:43:13] Jeff Sieh: Yeah, that’s exactly… Well, you might, I, I draw the Yeah

[00:43:16] Kira Pogge: the way you’re talking about, like, onboarding, onboarding your AI the same way you would a, an employee or getting to know someone in a networking meeting I think is a, a beautiful way to put it, and it does take some of the fear of the technology away for people who are kind of overwhelmed by all the zeros and ones, of it all.

[00:43:33] Kira Pogge: But if, if someone’s doing it for the first time and they’re listening to you and they’re super inspired by what you’ve built for your business, and he has an app that he built that to goes with his book that’s really wonderful, too, that’s really fun. I was playing with that before the call. Um,what would you tell them to do first?

[00:43:49] Kira Pogge: Like, what’s that first step they should take if they actually wanna save time in their business without kind of becoming overwhelmed by AI?

[00:43:56] Matt Stagliano: Start small is the way that I really go about it, right? [00:44:00] And, and a lot of times we say, “This is gonna save us time.” We’re all told that AI is gonna either, well, save or destroy the world. I’m somewhere in the middle, right? So for the people that say it’s gonna save the, save the world, they’re like, “Okay, great.

[00:44:12] Matt Stagliano: I’m gonna build my own version of a stream deck, which is then gonna run every application on my computer, and then I can just sit back and watch the YouTube money roll in.” It ain’t that easy. Start with writing an email that sounds like you, right? How do you do that? And you have to start small. Start looking around in your life at the little loops that cause you a ton of frustration and time.

[00:44:37] Matt Stagliano: You probably look at your phone 70 times a day looking at new texts or new emails or whatnot. Well, wouldn’t it make sense to, instead of looking at your email every five minutes, ’cause I’m gonna make people feel bad, but you’re not that important, right? When you can say, “All right, twice a day, I’m going to have Claude go into my [00:45:00] Gmail account, look at all of my email, and then at noon tell me which three are immediate responses,” right?

[00:45:08] Matt Stagliano: And if there are people that are getting mad at you outside of an emergency situation and you’re not responding within three hours, you need to rethink that relationship a little bit and set some better boundaries. So I think people need to start small with little tasks that annoy them, and thinking about, “How can I automate this?

[00:45:26] Matt Stagliano: How can I build a system around this? How can I change the parameters of this so that it doesn’t frustrate me?” We want these AI tools to give us time back in our lives so we can enjoy our friends, our relationships, our hobbies, touch grass once in a while, right? We want the ability to live a more harmonious life.

[00:45:48] Matt Stagliano: Balance is a fallacy. Harmony is really what I strive for. So if I can live a more harmonious life by utilizing these tools to save myself time [00:46:00] in little incremental ways, all of that builds up into a better lifestyle for me. So that’s what I implore that people do. Don’t try to, you know, build Rome in a day. Try to build a vase, right? Just start with a little bit of pottery. That’s the way that I go about it.

[00:46:18] Jeff Sieh: That is really great advice. and I wanted to, I wanted to pull up some of these comments we’re getting over on the stream. Megan Powers, who has a great making and marketing podcast, and she goes, we were asking about all in or dabbling with AI, and she goes, “I’m all in and dabbling.” which is great.

[00:46:35] Jeff Sieh: I mean, workflows are great, but it’s gotta work for you. Like, you can’t just say, “Oh, I’m gonna do what Matt says. I’m gonna do what Jeff, I’m gonna do what Kira says.” Like, it’s gotta be, it’s… And it’s also a living document. Like, you can change things. Like, you’re not… I tell people, “You can’t break it.” Now, you, it can delete things, but, like, you’re not gonna break the AI, so go play with it, have fun.

[00:46:53] Jeff Sieh: and it’s really interesting some things that, Dustin was saying, and Dustin, if you don’t know, he’s the founder and CEO over at [00:47:00] Magai, and Dustin says, “Here’s the thing though, ChatGPT’s models are actually more creative. There are technical reasons for this. Not to say Claude isn’t a creative, not as good at ChatGPT in the creative range.”

[00:47:09] Jeff Sieh: That’s really interesting, ’cause I’m actually, Dustin, having Claude write prompts that I take over for images over at at Chat. And I’m so… we’ll have to have a conversation about that, ’cause I’m really w- interested in your findings. but, yes. He says, “Context, context, context,” which is totally true.

[00:47:25] Jeff Sieh: And he says also, “Start simple. Avoid vibe coding. Pick, a thing you do every day, tell your AI about it, and ask how it can help.” That’s great, great advice. So as we kind of wrap this thing up,

[00:47:41] Jeff Sieh: I wanna talk about Generator, which is your podcast, which is really great. I love it because I nerd out about creating, creativity and creators and all that stuff.

[00:47:45] Jeff Sieh: but I wanna talk about as, a- and let, I want you to talk about your, your podcast and promote that and tell people where they can find it. But Generator goes into the parts of the creative life that most people skip, like the hard stuff, right? The doubt, the money, feeling isolated, if it’s [00:48:00] even worth it or not at the end of the day.

[00:48:02] Jeff Sieh: After all these episodes, the 70 plus that you’ve done so far, what is the one thing that nearly every creator is carrying?

[00:48:10] Matt Stagliano: That’s a great question. I think it’s the fact that we don’t feel we’re good enough, that it’s not necessarily imposter syndrome, but what it is is no matter how many years you’ve been doing the thing, there’s this feeling that you’re not gonna be able to p- to produce it on demand, right? You know you’re good, but it was kind of luck,

[00:48:31] Matt Stagliano: And it, and it, it rides this line between fear and imposter syndrome and just experience and giving zero Fs about anything. you have to exist in that world, and what I’ve found is the people that have, that had the longest, you know, careers are the ones that just learn to carry that better. They exist even though, in addition to the fact that they have all this fear.

[00:48:54] Matt Stagliano: So over years of these conversations, and a lot of them borne out [00:49:00] of the vulnerability that we all felt in COVID, I found that the conversations that I was having in private, on the streets, at networking events, in dark corners of clubs, right? When I’m having these conversations outside of the public eye, people were opening up about all of this stuff in their business, and it really kind of broke the illusion of the creator world for me because I realized there’s so much smoke and mirrors.

[00:49:29] Matt Stagliano: There’s so much lipstick that people put on the pig of creativity in trying to make it look good and trying to make themselves look better and get vanity numbers instead of just being who they are, right? And again, we come to that overperformance. So when I look at who I’ve had on Generator, and the first many episodes were some of the best photographers in the world.

[00:49:52] Matt Stagliano: And the reason I wanted to bring them on specifically was because they have the same issues that [00:50:00] someone that just picked up a brand-new camera two weeks ago has. There’s no difference in it. We all feel this all the same way. But there are techniques and skills and experience that you can get along the way that kind of diminish that.

[00:50:14] Matt Stagliano: But it was interesting to find that that’s kind of a common thread if you look through the 70, 80 episodes there, that that’s a common thread that weaves through almost all of them, is that there’s this feeling like they’re not good enough, and they’re, they’re plenty good. They’re plenty good.

[00:50:31] Jeff Sieh: Yeah, I know that resonates with a lot of people here who are watching

[00:50:34] Kira Pogge: totally. And do you think some of that comes from, you know, when you, when you’re a creative and you’re creating and you’re just focused on whatever medium you’re in, whether it’s finance or performance or somewhere on the myriad of things you can do on the internet and with, with the digital landscape, then we’re just focused on creativity.

[00:50:53] Kira Pogge: But when we start a business, there’s all these other jobs that we all of the sudden have that we kinda didn’t want. Like, we wanna make [00:51:00] money being creatives, but we don’t wanna be a bookkeeper and a CEO and, you know, a scheduler and all these other things. where do you see people in the creative world kind of get stuck the most on the business side?

[00:51:13] Kira Pogge: ‘Cause that can be a big struggle.

[00:51:15] Matt Stagliano: They think that business is going to betray their creativity. They think that going into business is going to remove the one thing that they love doing, when in fact, the business allows them… If your business doesn’t support your art, then you’re not saying no enough, right? Because when we’re running a business and we’re trying to be a creative, and we’re not marketing and we’re not, you know, protecting our, our art and what we want to produce, our voice, then we take any job that we can get.

[00:51:51] Matt Stagliano: And a lot of times we take those jobs that we can get, and we don’t get paid very much for them, and then we resent them, and then we have clients we don’t like or don’t want to answer the [00:52:00] phone for. And that becomes a cycle you get trapped in. Whereas if you can say no a little bit more and really protect and put out the voice that you want to put out.

[00:52:11] Matt Stagliano: I’m not saying it’s an easier path. I’m not saying the money comes faster. But what you find is that the best bodies of work that are out there were built around people saying no to the stuff that they didn’t want to do. So I think when people get into the business as being a creative, they have to understand that you have to approach both with the same passion and zeal.

[00:52:35] Matt Stagliano: You have to be able to go after your creativity with all that heart and passion that you’ve always had for it. But you have to do the same thing for business, understanding that that is going to be what allows you to do all that creative stuff in the first place. So you’ve got to learn the foundations of business.

[00:52:50] Matt Stagliano: You’ve got to learn how to run it well, and then you’ve also got to do it in a way that supports your lifestyle. That sounds a little bit nebulous, but you [00:53:00] can’t think that the business is going to hurt the creativity or that the creativity is going to keep you from running a good business. They work in, in part and parcel together

[00:53:10] Jeff Sieh: I would add one more thing too, and I know you believe in this as well, is also finding your people, a community with colleagues and people that are around you. I have masterminds that I’ve been in part for, like, over 10 years. the Ecamm community, which I know you’re a big part of the Ecamm fam.

[00:53:26] Jeff Sieh: Kira and I are in a mastermind together. I mean, so if you’re struggling, and you mentioned those things at the beginning of the, the la- to answer that question, of those, you know, feeling like, “I, I’m, I’m not creative. I gotta be creative in my business,” find the people who are, are struggling the same way you are and, and come together, ’cause it’s so much easier.

[00:53:43] Jeff Sieh: That is what’s changed everything for my business, is finding people and colleagues, because you’re not limited to, to your location anymore. Like, in Maine. I’m in Texas. Kira’s in… Where are you at, Kira? I don’t even know where you’re at, Kira. Kira’s, who knows? She’s probably watching this sh- New York.

[00:53:57] Jeff Sieh: Yeah, she’s in New York. So I mean, all the, it’s so [00:54:00] cool we can all come together. I don’t even know where these people are from, and we still can have a, a great time. So, find your people. Matt, this has been fabulous. I wanna give you enough time to tell people about your podcast, your, your Claude stuff, everything you got going on, where they can find you.

[00:54:12] Jeff Sieh: Thank you s- this has been such a great show. We’re gonna, we’re gonna chop the crap out of this thing and share it everywhere, so it’s gonna be so much fun. But where can people find you?

[00:54:19] Matt Stagliano: Great. Thanks so much. so Generator Podcast is the podcast and most of the stuff that I’m doing now, @ generatorpodcast on all the social channels, generatorpodcast.com. The photography work is at stonetreecreative.com, @ stonetreecreative on all the social channels. And then the Getting Good at Claude AI, the setup system, that is on each one of the websites.

[00:54:43] Matt Stagliano: Find the downloadables area, and you can find it there. It really is just something where I saved you hours and hours and hours and hours of research, built you a manual on how to get Claude sounding the way that you sound, and cut out [00:55:00] all that trial and error at the beginning. So yeah, generatorpodcast.com, stonetreecreative.com.

[00:55:04] Matt Stagliano: That’s good enough. People can find that. And then

[00:55:06] Matt Stagliano: Speak Less, Get More is on Amazon. Go buy the

[00:55:08] Jeff Sieh: Yeah. So, and his, for you guys listening on the podcast, Matt Stagliano, spelled S-T-A-G-L-I-A-N-O and generatorpodcast.com. So go make sure you guys check that out. And the book, by the way, it’s, if you are part of the Amazon Unlimited, I was able to pick it up there, as, if you subscribe to their, their Kindle books, which I, I speed read this thing before the show.

[00:55:30] Jeff Sieh: It’s so good. I love you and Kindle books ’cause I can highlight stuff and it goes to Notion and saves it, and it’s just amazing. So, Amy Keys actually said, she can’t wait to read the book. you need to read it, Amy. You will get a lot out of it for your museum podcast. So, thank you for that.

[00:55:44] Jeff Sieh: And thank you for the chat room because you know what? We have [00:56:00] Thank you guys so much for watching today. We’ll see you guys next time. Have a great rest of the weekend. Bye everybody