On this week’s Social Media News Live, we ask Erik Fisher about the newest features and opportunities for podcasters on Apple Podcasts. We’ll also be talking about the new subscription model, how affiliates will work, and also other major changes to the most popular podcast platform. 


[00:00:00] Jeff Sieh: [00:00:00] Welcome to social media news live I’m Jeff Sieh and you’re not. 

[00:00:05] Erik Fisher: [00:00:05] And you’re Eric I’m Eric Fisher. Yes. Sorry. Hey, I’m out of practice cause I haven’t, co-host the show in a long time and this is the space where gray stuffy would usually say that she is gray stuffy, but I am also not her. I am Erik Fisher and welcome.

[00:00:22] Jeff Sieh: [00:00:22] We wanted to give a shout out to our sponsor of the show the way we’re doing this awesome show with the lower thirds and the cool backgrounds we are using. Ecamm. So find out more about them at socialmedianewslive.com/ecamm And we’re multi streaming to every sort of place you can imagine.

[00:00:40] I think they have like 30 plus destinations. I think we’re using maybe six, including Amazon live, but it’s with Restream. So, Ecamm ties right into Restream. So make sure you guys go follow them, check them out at socialmedianewslive.com/restream.  So today we are going to be talking all about these new apple podcasts and so, If you have not been in the news lately with all this updates, we’ve covered some of the updates that we’ve talked about with apple and how that’s going to affect marketing, but they’ve also with this new, what is it?Changes in Apple Podcast App

[00:01:13] iOS 14.6 or something like that? Well look how good I was so that the podcast app changed as well. And there’s a couple different things that’s going to happen because of this. There there’s the app app has actually changed the way it like kind of looks and works and they’re also rolled out Smart subscription.

[00:01:33] I mean, subscriptions, affiliates, and some other things we’re gonna be talking about today. So let’s just jump right into this new apple podcast app. So here’s kind of the summary of that. So the app got a redesign and it’s got channels now to help people find new content curated by their favorite creators.

[00:01:52] And these channels will feature like artwork, titles, and descriptions that are unique to apple podcast. And the thing is some might promote free content while others are paid. It’s kind of redesigned to look more modern. It’s filtering like the latest episodes. And here’s the problem like. It was broken and it’s still somewhat broken.Problems with Apple Podcasts

[00:02:14] Like some people can’t delete episodes. Actually many users are saying they hate it. And there’s actually some people who say it’s like a crime against humanity. It’s that bad. So, Eric, I know like a lot of us here probably use a third party app, like, overcast, I think both of you and I use overcast to consume our content, but have you seen this broken app?

[00:02:35] How it works and do you think it’ll like actually affect downloads? 

[00:02:38]Erik Fisher: [00:02:38] Well, one, I think so, because if the, if it’s not properly feeding the episodes, which is also another issue that’s been talked about recently is how long it’s taking for episodes to actually show up in apple podcasts to then be fed out to if you’re subscribed through that method for it to show up in your podcast player.

[00:02:57]There’s been talk of, it’s still been 24 hours. I’ve released a show it’s not out there kind of stuff. And I’m like, geez. And an episode following the podcasting space since when was it? April 21st, when apple had their last event, they’ve got another one coming up and WWDC in June, but they when they announced all these podcasts changes and, and we’ll go over some of the other ones as well, this podcast app.

[00:03:24]It’s not just the podcast app, but it’s the new podcast space and con converting your account into a new version, as behind the scenes with podcasting and all that. And what’s interesting is, is like there’s people who, when they made those changes would just they’re there. They would go in and it would just be hung and it would, and it was like day 21 day, 25 day, and it’s like, almost like they were in the civil war dearest. So today my podcast still isn’t refreshing and that kind of stuff, as I would see their tweets and it was very one heartening to me that I never touched it. Cause I was like, hold up, I’m going to wait until they like fully, fully roll this out.

[00:04:04] And so I was glad I wasn’t like an early adopter in this case. Cause I was like, dude, I’m not going to mess up anything with my show right now. Like I’m not going to switch any train tracks whatsoever. So. Yeah, I think that, so I think it is going to mess up downloads. I would be careful, I would say to anybody who hasn’t switched over yet to the new version of I’m forgetting what it’s called podcast connect, I think 

[00:04:29] Jeff Sieh: [00:04:29] is the thing.

[00:04:29] Yes. Yeah. 

[00:04:30] Erik Fisher: [00:04:30] I was going to check the notes real quick, but the podcast connect, they boasted new stats and new everything in there. And again, I decided I’m not going to touch that until they like fully released that it’s like ready to, that it’s ready for prime time in other words. And What is Podcast Connect?

[00:04:44] Jeff Sieh: [00:04:44] so, yeah. So let’s talk about podcast connect for a little bit.

[00:04:47] So like you said, there’s, there’s new stats in there. There’s new ways to go about, getting stuff. And there’s been a lot, if you follow any of the podcasts news there’s been a lot of issues. The guy from Buzzsprout I think isn’t that the I can’t remember his name, the big podcast platform that it.

[00:05:02] He tried to walk through and submit a new one. This was last month and he was having issues actually getting it through. They were hiding RSS feeds, which is what podcasts used to push out everywhere. And like who owns the feed, all this stuff. So it was really, they’ve cleaned up some of that stuff, but it’s still not very, very.

[00:05:20] Clear. I’ve actually, I’m a, I do a lot stuff with guy. I actually produce guy Kawasaki’s podcast. He’s got a lot of followers and we went to get some data and it’s still, it’s really still not where I think it needs to be. It feels a little clunky. Eric, you mentioned you haven’t even gone in there and switched it over yet.

[00:05:35] His did. And it was just still, it wasn’t the smooth experience that you’re used to from apple, because most everything apple wise is, that’s why we use apple because it’s clear, it’s concise. We can get what we need. This isn’t there yet. So they’re still working on it. I do want to do some shout outs, really quick to people watching.

[00:05:52] We got our friend Rhonda Moore says, wow, this talking to you, Eric 10 years podcast podcasting. That’s something to be proud of. Yeah. It’s hard to believe. That’s a lot. How many episodes is that? 

[00:06:02]Erik Fisher: [00:06:02] It’s near 400 something. 

[00:06:04] Jeff Sieh: [00:06:04] That’s crazy. That’s great. Yeah. So a deal casters live the amazing Jim fuse and his, his, everybody over there obviously is good to see.

[00:06:11] Jeff and Eric always good to talk podcast. Yes, they have a podcast too. So make sure you guys go check out. Deal casters over on apple podcasts and our friend Sabrina says, hello, it’s me, Sabrina. Hello, Sabrina. It’s me, Jeff. I’m glad you tuned in to see today. And let’s see here for over on YouTube, how to grow your business as never liked using the app.Alternative Podcast Apps

[00:06:33] So excited if it’s going to be more usable. So I w I’m excited when it is more useful because I I’m, I love overcast. I’ve been a fan of that for so long, because so Eric, tell him the reasons why you switched over to overcast and why you like one. 

[00:06:50] Erik Fisher: [00:06:50] Okay, so, so overcast is a third-party app. It’s an iOS app.

[00:06:54] Marco Arment makes it. And one of the, he he’s been ahead of the game on so many of the features that have become standard in not just apple podcasts, but third-party podcast apps. When it comes to smart speed, when it comes to voice. Clarity and boosting, I forget what that feature is called, but it makes your podcasts sound better when you’re listening to it there.

[00:07:13]And the Smartspeed makes it to where you can, bump the speed up just slightly and it doesn’t chip monk it at all. Right. One of the main things though that you and I really have used it for is uploading your own MP3 files and, and what’s great, Hey here, here’s a quick. Hack for people, record yourself doing a presentation.

[00:07:31] This is what you do, record yourself doing a presentation or something else that you need to memorize, throw that up in there. And then you can listen to it over and over again, easily, right there in your own podcast player, app of choice, which is overcast for us. 

[00:07:46] Jeff Sieh: [00:07:46] So, yeah, exactly. And that’s what I do when I, when we actually go, I’m like, I’m on the plane and you and I have flown together, going to a conference before.

[00:07:52] And I’ve, I just sit there and listened to my it’s. I’m so glad when the conference is over, so I don’t have to hear myself anymore, but it is a handy thing. And like, you can do subscriptions and everything. It just works a little bit better, but I agree with how to grow your business earlier. Like it it’s it’s I used to use the podcast app all the time and I’m hoping that they will streamline it and get it to be what it needs to be over on apple.

[00:08:14] But yeah, so just be aware of some of this stuff because most new podcast. Users. We’ll probably find people from the podcast app is what I’m. And that’s the problem that a lot of independent podcasters were talking about, not like Joe Rogan, but like me, like this shows a podcast I’m considered an independent podcaster, and it’s hard to find your show if you’re an independent podcaster with this new app.

[00:08:42] And a lot of people are concerned because they’re going to this kind of channels. And these, the segments inside of the podcast app, it’s going to be hard for us independent podcasters. And a lot of people were upset because independent podcasters are what made podcasting. I mean, Eric and like, lumen jello and Tom Webster who were still trying to get on is they’re like the old G of podcasting.

[00:09:03] They started back, 10 years ago. And so they’re the ones who built it. And so a lot of people were upset. Like it steam. It seems to me the app is, is moving towards commercial. I, the commercial big boys NPRs. Do you feel that way too, Eric? I 

[00:09:18] Erik Fisher: [00:09:18] mean, it’s, it’s been kind of in that direction for a long time, so I’m not surprised and I’m not ever felt like, again, here I am talking from having done it for so long to the point where, I’ve got that I’ve, I’ve been fortunate enough and consistent enough for so long that like, if you go to the apple podcast app and type in the word productivity, like my show comes up, so I’ve got that SEO juice going, but that’s only because of doing it for so long.

[00:09:48] What I say right now is when you’ve got new people, starting out, that what you really want to do is focusing on your audience and your community and really. I guess not worry about them as not, not worry about getting mass listeners at large, but treat the listeners that you have with as much ownership and agency as you’re you, that you can honestly give them as You can to, to your show, in other words, make them feel like it’s their show too, in a way.

[00:10:19] Yeah, 

[00:10:19] Jeff Sieh: [00:10:19] I agree. So our pal Ramon array says podcasting can be confusing. Y’all here, what we need to know. So hopefully we’ll do that in today’s show. Thank you for stopping by. I was over on his clubhouse not very long ago, which is a whole different audio is just hot right now. No matter where it is.

[00:10:37] So that’s what I think is great for people who produce audio. So, he, it was fun to be on classman. And then Sabrina goes overcast, a third party, third party, third party podcast app. Yes, it is. So there’s a couple of them out there. Eric, what are some other third-party ones that are really popular? I mean, pocket 

[00:10:55] Erik Fisher: [00:10:55] casts is a good one.

[00:10:56] That’s cross-platform I think Castro is another one. I think that is, is third party and cross-platform I’m trying to think of what the other ones are. There’s there’s another one. See, I just don’t, I don’t right. Once you 

[00:11:07] find 

[00:11:07] Jeff Sieh: [00:11:07] one that works for you and is in your workflow, you just kind of forget about it and like, so that upload feature we mentioned with overcast, the, I am happily, I think it’s 10 bucks a year to have that feature for the premium.

[00:11:18] And I’m like, yeah. And then it just, and I use it also like, there’s some stuff that I’ve had from Michael Hyatt of him teaching that are, that were MP3s, that I downloaded. I’m able to upload those and listen to them when I want to. So it’s just, it’s just really handy to have that feature. Sabrina asked this question to curious, are you all putting your podcast on iHeartRadio?

[00:11:39] I’m not a podcast. You’re just asking where you’re putting your podcasts. So let’s, let’s explain for people like Sabrina kind of how that. The whole thing works. So it’s almost like a website Sabrina. So you don’t put your podcast on your website. You put it on a podcast hosting platform for like guy Kawasaki.

[00:11:54] And for this show it’s on simple cast. Libsyn is another big one. That’s blue blueberries, another one. So, and Eric, you use, I can’t remember the name of your fireside fireside. So you put your, your audio files there and it’s, it goes out with RSS feed to all the players and you submit those, I mean, the, the networks and you submit them there.

[00:12:14] And so, you’re not having hosting them on your site because it would crash your site. Pretty much if people were trying to pull those audio files down all the time and you had a decent, podcast listenership, but And when you have, when you upload it to, like, for me to simple cast, I get to select all the places that I want to put it.

[00:12:30] Like I heart radio. Then you mentioned that’s when I go to, I go to Spotify, I go to apple podcast and I like, there’s a stitch here. There’s tons of Google play. There’s just Google. Now, I guess it’s just Google podcasts, Google podcasts. And so it goes to all those different places so that you can, you can have it to multiple places because you want to get discovered from as many places as possible.

[00:12:52] Eric, what are your thoughts on 

[00:12:53] Erik Fisher: [00:12:53] that? Yeah, I would say that. And that’s, that’s why you definitely want to make sure that you’re uploading to somewhere. I mean, here’s the thing, apple podcasts take care of a lot of them in and of itself to all those different third-party players. Cause a lot of them are tying into overcast, for example, is tying into apple podcasts.

[00:13:11]And I know we were talking earlier about the apple podcast app and there’s the other big behemoth in the room in terms of Spotify and their app, but their app. Is even less usable than apple podcast app. So that’s yet another reason why a third party app is just what I use. 

[00:13:29] Jeff Sieh: [00:13:29] So, but that’s the thing talking about, where people are discovering it and Tom Webster, who we still trying to get on, but th there’s three, there’s three things that he really, and he’s, he’s found study ease in some studies and he’s with Edison research and he’s found some really interesting things where people are consuming podcasts.

[00:13:47] And what’s really interesting, and this is kind of new because we will always been told you, like, Apple’s the big boy, that’s where you need to make sure you get everything, everything, but Spotify is getting close to being tied with usership. And that was really interesting to me. So there’s these, and you see it with what we were talking about a little bit with subscriptions.

[00:14:05] There’s kind of this fight between these two big players now, which to me is nice because I always love competition because it usually ends up that the consumers and even the creators benefit from that. So, 

[00:14:17]Erik Fisher: [00:14:17] It’s interesting. I don’t know where I read this, so I’m not trying to plagiarize this, but I saw it as like a headline just yesterday.

[00:14:23] I think where it said apple podcasting is Apple’s hobby, but Spotify is business. 

[00:14:29] Jeff Sieh: [00:14:29] Do you see that? Yeah, 

[00:14:30] Erik Fisher: [00:14:30] that was really interesting. I thought that was pretty interesting. Take on that. And Spotify is like going after it, whereas apple. They have just released to all these different things. And we’re gonna talk more about some of these other things, but they have sat on it for so long doing almost nothing.

[00:14:45] Right. Really? And so it’s 

[00:14:46] Jeff Sieh: [00:14:46] interesting. Anyway, so have you played with breakers? So a deal caster says breaker’s interesting podcast app Twitter bought them earlier this year. What do you know about break, right? Yeah, 

[00:14:57] Erik Fisher: [00:14:57] that was part of the conversation we had. I think back when we were talking about Twitter spaces and the fact that Twitter bought a podcasting app the app is not going to close down, but it’s that they bought the team or they hired the team to work on Twitter bot.

[00:15:13] Twitter slash hired the team from breaker to work on Twitter spaces. And that was a really good sign in my mind because they were actually grabbing audio people, legit audio people to work on their audio tool. And I was like, yeah, clubhouse, your days are numbered. Right then. Apple vs Spotify

[00:15:30] Jeff Sieh: [00:15:30] So, so, on this, before we move on to the next section with this new op apple podcast app, I want to ask you a question about it because we mentioned Spotify.

[00:15:37] So will you think the difficulty of, of use right now with this new podcast app, do you think it’s going to play into Spotify, his hands and drive users over there? You mentioned that you don’t think it’s as easy to get podcasts over on Spotify, but if it’s easier than apple, do you think that will drive users to sign up over our listen actually over on Spotify?

[00:15:58] Erik Fisher: [00:15:58] Well, again, I’m biased because I love overcast so much, but I think both apps are pretty unusable, but I guess if somebody was willing to have put up with apple podcasts for so long until now and now the app is still. Working sort of, or it’s broken here. Here’s the thing I have. Let me put it this way.

[00:16:17] Spotify doesn’t work great. As a podcasting app on mobile apple, I trust more. Biased again, to fix their app sooner than I trust Spotify to make their app usable. So, I mean, I think that’s, I think that’s my take. Yeah. Yeah. Gotcha. I thought about it yet, but 

[00:16:36] Jeff Sieh: [00:16:36] so by the way, two programs that are great and work.

[00:16:39] Awesome. I wanted to once again, give a shout out to our the way we’re switching screens, having this cool background. If you can dream a live show, then you can pretty much make it happen. And that’s all done by my friends over all by Ecamm and you can find out more about them at socialmedianewslive.com/ecamm

[00:16:54] In fact, the really cool thing about Ecamm. When you’re done with it, you can download it. And it’s split, like Eric’s track separate. My track is separate and the, the, the entire mixed version is there. It’s amazing for repurposing this as a podcast, which we do, and you can find us and Erick on all the, your favorite places.

[00:17:12] I end up social media is live because I’m subscribed there, but are our follow there. And we’ll talk about that in the next section, but make sure you guys check out socialmedianewslive.com/restream And the way we’re going to all these different places, even over on Amazon alive is by restream.

[00:17:28] They allow us to multistream to multiple places. And the cool thing is about that. I can pull comments in from everywhere. So you saw comments already from YouTube and Facebook and Twitter. It’s amazing. So make sure you guys go check those them out over at Restream by going to socialemedianewslive.com/restreamApple Podcast Subscriptions

[00:17:45] So the big thing that happened is that this new apple podcast subscriptions now. This as followed, what everybody talks about in the news is when Joe Rogan went over from his podcast, he had a podcast, he made it exclusively over on Spotify. And so that was a big deal that kind of started this.

[00:18:09] And now we’ve got this new apple podcast subscription. So during their spring event, the company apple announced that people will be able to subscribe to content from the app for extra perks, like add free bonus content, as well as maybe some early access. So like if you want to have have them get access to the show a week ahead, I know that business wars does that over on one Wondery.

[00:18:31] So it’s going to launch in one 770 regions and countries. This, this next, this month, their initial partners include Pushkin industries, Q code, and NPR ended up what happens is content creators will have to pay apple 19. 99 per year in order to offer those subscriptions. And apple, of course, is going to take 30% of the revenue off the first year of a subscribers lifetime, and then 15% for the years following.

[00:19:01] So this means that if a subscriber subscribes for one year a podcast role, like I’ve given 30% of that revenue, right at the beginning. So podcasts are really incentivized to keep subscribers around longer. And they also have to upload, we talked about earlier, having those service providers but podcasts are, will have to use for their, for the subscription content they’re gonna have to use Apple’s backend, not through their RSS, not through their hosting provider.

[00:19:27] It’s gotta be in Apple’s feed. Now there are other feed can still operate through RSS, their free feed, but This is really interesting. And this is the killer for me because of subscription. Content goes through apple podcasters, won’t receive specific data about their paying listeners, like their email, email address, their names or contact information.

[00:19:47] So apple essentially owns the relationships. So, Eric, what do you think about this? Does this new podcast subscription? Is this going to change the monetization landscape for podcasters? Should everybody start making, gated content? What are your thoughts? Well, there’s a 

[00:20:02] Erik Fisher: [00:20:02] couple of different ways to look at this and I think some podcasters may initially think, well, if I was making nothing off them already, then why not make, something’s better than nothing in other words.

[00:20:15] And so why not do this? Why not jump in to apple podcasts? Because Spotify is not offering this. You’re not, you’re not able to do a subscription through Spotify specifically. And in fact, that is another reason. That’s another, bifurcation of the attention and the the ecosphere in terms of subscribers that if you’re offering it paid and bonus and whatever, like if somebody is listening to you over on Spotify, if they want to get like your ad free version over on apple they have to do it through apple podcasts.

[00:20:47] And so there’s that one side of it where it’s like, okay, well something’s better than nothing, but the problem with that is if you’re wanting to do this, long-term, if you’re going to have somebody literally pay you for a, there’s a plethora of different options, there’s, there’s access there’s bonus content.

[00:21:08] There’s early content there’s ad-free content. All of those are options at different price tiers in apple podcast subscriptions. If somebody is paying you for that though, wouldn’t you want to be able to connect with them specifically in some way, and there’s no way to do that. So unfortunately, there, there are some people who will just say, well, I’ll just create a Patrion instead and put my ad reversion in there, et cetera.

[00:21:33] So, yeah, 

[00:21:36] Jeff Sieh: [00:21:36] so this is really interesting to me because I, I love being able to pay creators and I think that’s, that’s awesome. But it’s just, I don’t know. I think that a lot of these creators are going to jump on it early, before they need to. And Tom Webster has a great article that he talks about how, we think that w w is great for NPR, because they’ve already built that model, but the independent podcasters really don’t, and there’s not really, unless you’re NPR.

[00:22:05] Sometimes it doesn’t make sense. And I’ve, I’ve even talked to Lou Mongiello about this, about like, cause he does Patrion and we’re gonna get into on in a minute. But he’s like why with Patrion, you actually get to see who your subscribers are. I think you get their email addresses and you’re able to see that content and the cut is lower.

[00:22:23] And so I’m just like, why would I, why would I do that? If I can use a different service that gives me more access anyway. 

[00:22:31] Changing “Subscribe” CTA to “Follow”So, the, one of the big things, and then once again, Tom, once you’re talking about this is how important it is with this change of language. Because even before, if you talk to like my mom and dad, when you would say subscribe to my podcast, that has the connotation because they come from the newspaper.

[00:22:49] Era, I guess, you know that when a subscription costs money, we have a subscription to Netflix. We have a subscription to Kula all those different things. So subscribe in every other place means you’re paying money for it. Well, on podcasts, we would always do the call to action, subscribe to our podcast, but it was free.

[00:23:06] And so this is going to be even more important as we go forward as content creators. And that are putting out podcasts is to change that language and not say subscribe to my podcast, because now there is a subscription based podcast over on apple, but instead say follow. So what other things, how should we change our, are you going to change your call to action on your, on your show, Eric?

[00:23:30] Cause I mean, you have a really big listenership. 

[00:23:33] Erik Fisher: [00:23:33] I think what you need to do is just change your language altogether to follow because overall, like you just alluded to the word subscription in furs that there is an inherent and or hidden cost a gotcha. And you don’t want that to be the case. You don’t want that to be even subliminally a psychological barrier to somebody following your podcast, receiving the free updates that you’re giving.

[00:24:00] And what’s funny is even, even over on YouTube, which I know we’ll touch on a little bit on YouTube later. It’s subscribed to my channel. Well, what do I have to pay to subscribe to the channel? I really think overall in a lot of the ways, like I, I tweeted this the other day. I was like, I want to create content, but I don’t want to call it content.

[00:24:17] I think we need to start changing some of the language we use and say, if, unless you’re really paying to subscribe, we should start changing things over to follow just in general. So I 

[00:24:29] Jeff Sieh: [00:24:29] think that’s a great, and I think this goes back and, and I do it just as much as the next person is. I forget about the end-user.

[00:24:36] I forget about the people who may be in it. It’s still hard to make believe that people don’t know what podcasts are in this day and age, but there are still people who don’t understand. And when you say subscribe, they think, well, I’m not going to do that. I don’t want to pay. And so I think that’s a great point.

[00:24:49] It’s trying to think like our, our end users. So I want to bring up some comments really quick. I peg Fitzpatrick goes, Hey, Jesse, us, Eric Fisher. And so she also says he cam is amazing. Yes. We love the  and how to grow your business over on YouTube says, just download it overcast. Maybe I’ll become an ex apple podcast user as a result.

[00:25:10] Well, until they fix it, I have a feeling you will be, but that’s just me. And then Sabrina says a good point about the calls to action. So, yeah. About, so we’re talking about following instead of subscribing over on apple podcasts. One of the things that, we talked about Patrion and th the cool thing about Patrion is that, we talked about it’s 30% of the first year is what Apple’s going to take.

[00:25:32] And then 50% after that, well, Patriot only takes 12%. So 

[00:25:36] Erik Fisher: [00:25:36] it’s, it’s actually lower 

[00:25:37] Jeff Sieh: [00:25:37] in some instances. Yeah. Yeah. So, and Spotify, even they flipped it. I think it’s 15% like lifetime. I can’t remember it, but they have something for, for, for the podcast. But anyway why would I, why is what would be the reason that I would use apple podcast over Patrion Eric?

[00:25:54] Is it because the potential of a larger group of eyeballs? I mean, I’m trying to, in my mind think of why I would not use Patriot. Apple Subscriptions vs Patreon

[00:26:04] Erik Fisher: [00:26:04] I would say that if it’s somebody who passively just literally wants to get your content again, early or ad free, or I forget what the other ones are have access to you in some way.

[00:26:16] Although that, that reaches over into the Patrion side of things, Patriot is more community driven, but if somebody wants to just passively it, think of it this way, this is actually, this is a really good analogy. I don’t want to connect with people on, on Hulu. I just want to watch my stuff they’re ad free.

[00:26:31] So think of it, like think of it, like paying that tax to get the shows ad free. And if you’re willing to do that, there are some people they just want to reduce the friction of there. Most enjoyable podcast, listening podcasts, and they don’t want to go through all the rigamarole of signing up for something outside of their app of choice, if it’s apple podcasts, which again, that debate we’ve already kind of had, but if that’s where they are and they want to just make it painless and simple and quick and easy, like honestly, there’s, if apple were to open up kind of a way to do like a an ALA carte pick and choose like two, three, five podcasts to go ad free, I might consider throwing those over in there just to make them all quick and easy to go.

[00:27:15] But like at the same time, like I like to support podcasts. I mean, I have, I have ads in my shows. Like I want people to listen to them. I want those to yield ROI. So, 

[00:27:27] Jeff Sieh: [00:27:27] so I know that’s the, that’s the thing, how you have ads in your thing and you make pretty decent income from having your ads in your show.

[00:27:36] You would have to have a lot of people move over to a subscription model. Like say, I want Eric’s show without the ads, which I think there’s only three ads in your show at the most, but yeah. And so you would have to make it, so it wasn’t, to move people over there, you’d have to have a lot of people over there to pay for it, to be ad-free to offset.

[00:27:54] You know what I’m saying? Like you’re getting money from ads. You’d have to make a, a bunch of anyway, but key 

[00:28:00] Erik Fisher: [00:28:00] distinction here is it won’t matter how many people are subscribed. This kind of lowers the barrier to entry in terms of your ROI, because you can have a solid one or 200 listeners. And if a small percentage of them actually pay to get ad free or to get early access, or just to tip you, I guess, that’s, that’s an option.

[00:28:23]You’re going to be able to, in other words, you’re going to more quickly and more easily be able to get something from your show to support your show through this method. And maybe you don’t do it for forever, but again, it’s, I guess in some senses, it’s like, why not offer that option to the people who won’t pick any other option is kind of, it’s where my head is right now.

[00:28:44] I don’t know. I’m not on a land on that, but 

[00:28:46] Jeff Sieh: [00:28:46] we’ll see. So why wouldn’t I have a show that’s ads and then on my Patrion model, they can go and download the ad free version for the people who have Patrion. I mean, why would I go to Rappaport? 

[00:28:58] Erik Fisher: [00:28:58] I support shows that way. I at least one or two already. And so I don’t know that I will, I, I personally enjoy that because that, that, that support gets me access to those creators through Patrion and all the extra connection.

[00:29:17] I like that they can reach out to me as a. Supporter. And they can send out blog posts or many extra bonus content and all that kind of stuff through there. So, and 

[00:29:29] Jeff Sieh: [00:29:29] see. 

[00:29:29] Erik Fisher: [00:29:29] And so, in other words, I think it’s almost potentially too little too late on Apple’s part, unless they really beef this up 

[00:29:37] Jeff Sieh: [00:29:37] because the thing is with Patrion, you have more options.

[00:29:40] So I’m going back to Lumon jello, he’s got a patron account when you joined his, not only you do you get other things, but you get like, a call with him. Like you can do, like, he has like group calls. He has, gift packages that he sends out from his Patrion levels. And apple just seems like one they’re taking 30 and plus then you’re only, there are only certain things you can do audio wise for those levels.

[00:30:02] You know what I’m saying? It’s just because like, it would be different if like I could get all those email addresses from apple in the, that are subscribed to me. And I can say, Hey, by the way, since you’re already a subscriber, you get this, this and this, but you can’t do that. And so that’s what limits this to me in a big way.

[00:30:19] So the other question I have for you, so our apple podcast subscriptions, are they locked down to just being listened to on apple, like devices or is it, like, is it, are you have to be an apple ecosystem? If I wanted to? Cause I broadcast everywhere to Spotify will. How do they do they, I guess they have to use apple, right?

[00:30:39] Erik Fisher: [00:30:39] There’s there, there, as far as I know, there is no way. And I’ve seen and not seen any evidence or research that, that contradicts this, that there is no way that if you were to subscribe, paid subscribe, see, I have to kind of caveat that now. If you were to pay, subscribe in apple podcasts to a show, there’s no way to listen to that anywhere else, other than apple podcasts, whether that’s desktop, I pad OOS or iOS, or I think you could probably pull it off with T V O S as well through your apple TV.Will People Pay for Podcasts?

[00:31:13] Jeff Sieh: [00:31:13] So here’s the big question in the room. Will people pay for podcasts? Will they pay for those ad-free podcasts or the exclusive bonus content or access to the podcast? Or what say you have you done that? 

[00:31:25]Erik Fisher: [00:31:25] My take on this and I think I already kind of broke, I already broke this news. I don’t necessarily pay for ad free.

[00:31:34] I pay to support a show. I pay to support a creator and I think that’s different. I think there’s a, I at least there’s a difference of it in my perspective, my mentality, when I go about it, I don’t do it to pay, to get the show. Cause I already get that for free. And I can just skip ads if I, if they really annoy me, which most of the time they don’t a good POS good podcast or knows how to make an ad enjoyable to listen to.

[00:31:57] Right. Exactly. But, and I, and I aspire to that, but I would rather support the show specifically and or create the creator specifically. And that’s why I would choose Patrion. 

[00:32:09] Jeff Sieh: [00:32:09] So, so the only podcast I’ve ever subscribed to, and it was because it was exclusive, the entire show is exclusive and it was on Stitcher and it was, it’s a Marvel Wolverine podcast and that was the only place to listen to it.

[00:32:24] And so I get that. Now there’s been some examples of that. Like if you have an audible account, there’s some exclusive podcasts that you could only hear on audible. I think Amazon is even maybe thinking about doing, and I, and I think actually some of these apple like the apple TV plus shows some of their podcasts like that, or let’s just say there’s a Ted lasso podcast because that’s only on apple, that’s only going to be up, yeah, exactly. So I, I, I’ve only paid for one some of my favorite podcasts, like business wars has a ad free option. Not interested. I mean, I I’m on the mower or walk-in or something. It doesn’t kill me to listen to. And they do a great job with their ads. It’s, he’s very natural and how he reads them and it’s not like a heartbreak or something.

[00:33:09] And so, I do pay for like Hulu and those things to skip ads, but I’m just not there yet with podcasts, because I think we’ve been ingrained that they’re free for so long. So I think it’s going to be a hard thing. And so now I will pay Lou Mongiello all day for his stuff. I will go and get on Eric’s Patrion all day because I know them and I want to support them.

[00:33:30] I enjoy their content. I want to see the exclusive stuff they have. I want to be the first to know, because I, I have, I want to have a relationship with those podcasts just to your point, but. I don’t know if I pay for your show just because the ads are gone. You know what I mean? 

[00:33:44] Erik Fisher: [00:33:44] Yeah. I think that is the key.

[00:33:46] There is in one of the things we know of in terms of podcasting is that the biggest boon to one growing a show is consistency. And one of the others is community and connection with your listeners. And if apple podcasts is going to allow you to monetize, but not connect with the community that is choosing that, then it’s not going to be successful in my mind.

[00:34:15] Unfortunately, right. Apple Podcast Affiliates

[00:34:17] Jeff Sieh: [00:34:17] So this last piece of news, let’s go ahead and get, this is this it’s interesting thing that kind of ties into all this. This is apple podcast affiliates. So what is happening here is that this is from tech crunch has kind of broke this one that, that I found. So they’re introducing a new program that will help podcast creators grow their subscriber base, which, Hey, we’re all for it.

[00:34:37] And it’s affiliate marketing. So the companies apple services, performance partner program, which that’s hard to say, which already exists to help market other apple services like apple DV, apple news, apple books is now expanding to include paid podcasts and this new program, get this apple services, performance partner program for apple podcasts.

[00:34:58] That’s even worse. We’ll be open to anyone though. The company believes that will make the most sense for publishers and creators who already have an audience and a number of marketing channels where they can share these new affiliate links. So when users convert by clicking through one of the links and subscribing to a premium podcast, the partner will receive a one-time commission at a 50% of the podcast subscription price after the subscriber accumulates their first month of paid service.

[00:35:23] So for example, if I went to Eric’s podcast, he had a paid one and he was charging subscribers $5 per month. The commission would be two 50 and this commission would apply for every new subscriber that signed up through the affiliate channel. And there’s no cap. Well, anyone can, apply for this program.

[00:35:39] There’s an approval process you have to go through. And it’s mainly to try to keep spammers out of the program. That they have some marketing, making sure that people do have some marketing channels where they can distribute those links. And so, they do ask for like how many channels you have available, how the partner intends to produce them, to remote their links, all those kinds of things.

[00:35:57] And it’s going to be made available to anyone in the 170 countries and regions where paid podcast subscriptions are being made available. So once approved to sign in, they’re going to get this access to an online dashboard, which I haven’t seen yet, where they can create those links, kind of like any sort of affiliate program that you’ve been sponsored with, where you can see the, you can create, URLs for specific specific products.

[00:36:17] So. You can create multiple URLs and you can track everything. So, and find out what channels are performing better. And they can be posted to their own tied, to listen on apple podcast badge, or actually can be made available as a QR code. And so that can be cool if you’re doing live, I can see that happening all over podcast movement.

[00:36:37] When, there’s those big keynote people on stage, you could, you’d have it on signage and flyers. And so yeah, live tapings or like a live show like this. So, it could, it could be really cool. So do you think this is gonna help, by leveraging affiliates that you could actually help grow a podcast subscription?

[00:36:56] Erik Fisher: [00:36:56] I think so I think this is something that potentially, I mean, we talk, I just talked about apple podcasts and if it didn’t connect you with the community, but say your listeners want to make a little bit of, I mean, it’s 50%, it’s not bad. Right. So if people love your show and you have, are offering a paid version of it inside of apple podcasts, and you can get them to link out to you and say, Hey, I love the show, check it out, better copy than I just randomly came up with, but have their affiliate URL in there.

[00:37:30]That’s pretty cool because it, in a sense it incentivizes them to push people to your show. And here’s the thing, even if they don’t subscribe to it in a paid way, they’re, you’re, they’re driving traffic to. The follow button, I assume it’s still there for them to follow it and become aware of your show.

[00:37:52] So it’s almost like paid marketing for your podcast in a weird way. 

[00:37:56] Jeff Sieh: [00:37:56] So here’s something I know you’ve done this before. And may have even been business wars where I heard it on your show because like when new shows launched, a lot of times they will go on some popular shows and those shows are paid to promote like an epic.

[00:38:10] Yes. Yeah. I 

[00:38:11] Erik Fisher: [00:38:11] wonder if he does this with a lot of their shows, the spores being 

[00:38:13] Jeff Sieh: [00:38:13] one of them. Yeah. So would this be a way another way for maybe not like you, you, you have a, a subscription, a package you, you give to the people from your agency and all that stuff, but would this be a way for maybe smaller podcasts to make some money promoting other shows?

[00:38:31] Erik Fisher: [00:38:31] Yeah. I mean, that’s, the other thing is like, not only can you, as a podcast, consumer, a podcast listener, make money promoting your favorite shows, you could promote if you’re, if you’re a podcast creator and you have like, I could, I mean, in theory, I make my, I have my own podcasts, but I could go to other shows that are that have paid podcast subscriptions inside of apple podcasts and push those and make a little bit in theory.

[00:38:56] Jeff Sieh: [00:38:56] So, yeah, I, I really think that this is something where you could, if you have a following on social media and you like some podcasts and you want to make a little bit of money, I think it’s going to make more sense for, I see it making it a way to make money when you’re driving people to like an NPR or like a big show where they’re giving a good cut for, for those paid things.

[00:39:16] I just, I, I struggle with like somebody who’s starting a small, like paid subscription model, trying to get. Give them a cut of that because it’s going to take away the small amount they’re already getting, I just, it’ll be interesting to see. I just, I think it’s going to work for the big boys.

[00:39:30] I think it’s going to be a real struggle for maybe some of the smaller ones. That’s just my thoughts. Yeah. 

[00:39:35] Erik Fisher: [00:39:35] I think w what I was unclear on was if they, if the affiliate was actually getting half your pay or 

[00:39:43] Jeff Sieh: [00:39:43] not, I don’t know. I’m sure apple is taking a cut of something. Yeah. 

[00:39:47] Erik Fisher: [00:39:47] In the end, I think, Hey, even if they’re, even if they are taking something, if you’re gaining subscribers through it, maybe that’s worth it.

[00:39:55] I don’t know something to consider. Importance of the Email List

[00:39:57] Jeff Sieh: [00:39:57] Yeah. Yeah. You can almost be like a pro like a Patrion model where if you want to activate your super fans, you and I were talking about pat Finn plan, super super fans book before the show, but giving them, a piece of the pie, I still think patriarch is a better way to do it because you can offer a more things, but you could do the same thing with, this affiliate program as well.

[00:40:15] So. One of the things that in Tom Webster’s articles he talks about is the importance of podcasters is building an email list. Is there another, is there any other way other than building email lists that podcasts are, should, optimize a way to communicate this to your audience? You mentioned a lot about how important it is to connect with your audience in your podcast.

[00:40:37] Yeah. What are some other ways? 

[00:40:39] Erik Fisher: [00:40:39] So there’s a couple other ways that you can do that again, email’s the most important, because that’s still remains imperative, but there are other ways to not just connect through. Like, I mean, a lot of people have like, oh, create a Facebook group. Yeah. But then you’re building on rented land.

[00:40:53]But then again, these other ones are, they’re also rented land unless you pay for them slack. Creating a slack channel or slack instance, discord for your podcast or a discord. There is a disc, it was one of the Patriots that I support has a discord community. And so that’s got its own channels and all that kind of good stuff.

[00:41:12] And that’s where they post like, Hey, I’m doing this, Hey, I’m going to do a live stream. Here’s the private link to that. Here’s the link to the podcast, all that kind of cool stuff. And so again, it Patriot doesn’t necessarily have good chat functionality, but discord on top of it. And I think there’s actually an easy way to connect those.

[00:41:31] So I would say using some of those other ways, those other methods, those other means to facilitate, dialogue and, definitely have a vetting process and definitely have community rules in place before you set these things up. But Yeah, allowing more access, allowing more content, allowing more connectivity between not just you, but also your, the listeners and each other really can be huge for your show.

[00:41:56] Jeff Sieh: [00:41:56] Yeah. I think those are all great points. The Big Three in the Podcasting UniverseSo this is an, and you and I talked about this a little bit, but Tom mentioned in his article that he mentioned the big three now, and I knew apple is one Spotify. We talked about that earlier in the show that it’s creeping up and some reports of like listenership.

[00:42:14] They’re getting close to being tied with apple, which is a big deal. That’s a big deal. That’s never happened before apple was every that’s what you needed to be with. But the other one was YouTube. And I know a lot of podcasters who aren’t apple, apple, and they’re on Spotify, but not on YouTube. Do you think they’re missing out.

[00:42:33] Erik Fisher: [00:42:33] Yes, and I am not on YouTube as a podcaster. And this is one of the things that is like a weakness, a Achilles heel. And I’ve tried to think about in terms of what kind of strategy, because I think that’s what’s necessary in terms of a podcaster. I think you cannot just be lazy and just spit out an audio version of your show over there with a visual that is static every single time, or even a V a visual that maybe changes every time.

[00:43:06] I, and here’s the thing I know there are podcasts or should do this, and they will swear by this and they’ll say, well, it’s better to be there at all, then not at all. And my take is, is that I get that there are people who will go and listen to it over on YouTube and leave it playing and then switch tabs and do other things right.

[00:43:22] And still keep listening. But. YouTube is a visual engine. I know there’s songs. I know there’s people with vision. I know there’s audio components with a visual, a static visual, or changing visuals, but like it’s not a PowerPoint presentation with audio. It is a podcast. And what I say is, like right now we are over on YouTube.

[00:43:45] This is a podcast being recorded as a live show, as well as a podcast. And it will be there on your YouTube channel and people should go subscribe to it. But also a YouTube strategy encompasses doing things that are helpful in the YouTube algorithm, which means not just having you mean going live as part of that.

[00:44:05] But I don’t think putting an hour long, just audio static, visual is inherent to a winning YouTube strategy. And instead you want to create legit three, four, five, 10 minute. Fully thought out planned processed, edited visual videos that are engaging as to what people are searching for that relate to the content of your podcast.

[00:44:34] Context-wise I think that’s 

[00:44:37] Jeff Sieh: [00:44:37] very, very important. So, and I still think. So we’re live over on YouTube. People can go listen to this. This audio is going to be a podcast. We would love it. If you would go over to apple podcasts and follow us, follow us. And it’s social media news live. You can just search there, but I think it’s really important to now it’s easier than ever to go to multiple places.

[00:44:56] I mean, we’re using e-com well to mix the show and we’re actually going to bring up graphics at the end. So there’ll be a spot for, what, what’s coming up next at the end of, for our YouTube audience. And also we’re going out to multiple places using restream where we can actually go to Amazon live.

[00:45:15] We can go to YouTube and there’s, there’s more tools than ever that allow you to do this and do it easier. But you also have to think about those audiences on all those different places. So, yeah, I think it’s really, really. Important. And I, I, I wish you would do your show. You have such, I, I told them, I told this to mark Schaefer.

[00:45:32] I’ve, I’ve told it to Lou. I’ve told it to you. I mean, you have such good guests. It would guy Kawasaki. I mean, he’s got Jane Goodall on there. I’m like, I want to see you talk to her. Why can’t you, I mean, I think it’s just, I think you guys who are podcasting, just turn on your camera because it’s amazing.

[00:45:50] Is there a reason to it you’re not 

[00:45:51] Erik Fisher: [00:45:51] wrong, but there’s more to it than that. And you’ve got to start to figure out like, and that’s my thing is like, I want to figure out that is definitely one of those things. Like I said, it’s a weakness, so I want to figure it out. Yeah. Is it 

[00:46:01] Jeff Sieh: [00:46:01] the editing? What do you think it, why do you think people it’s a struggle?

[00:46:05] Erik Fisher: [00:46:05] I think there’s part, but I think it’s one part editing. I think it’s one part making sure it’s a whole, it’s one thing to make sure that they’ve got decent audio. And then when I’ve got to make sure they’ve got even okay. Video, it’s like. And that they look good enough and they don’t, that they don’t solve like this.

[00:46:24] And 

[00:46:25] Jeff Sieh: [00:46:25] when you, yeah, you gotta make sure the audio is right. Yeah. You’ve got to make sure the audio is right. And so I think that people will forgive the poor video more than they will. If I see a blurry Jane or Johnny cuff on your show, I don’t care as long as he sounds good. And I can it’s John AKF and not Jeff C then, 

[00:46:41] I 

[00:46:41] Erik Fisher: [00:46:41] would love to watch it for me.

[00:46:42] It’s I think for me, it’s that not every guest is going to be worth watching. So I think it’s more, I’m going to, I will say this and, we didn’t plan on talking about this, so it’s weird, but I think that Jeff put me on the spot. I think that. My path forward with this is with key people, right?

[00:47:01] Especially if I were to have like you and a few other key people that I knew were going to be good on video to start that process and work through it and work the kinks out and then have it not be every episode, but specific episodes. And even then to pull clips from those 

[00:47:17] Jeff Sieh: [00:47:17] episodes. Th the reason I said this, because I was really surprised that Tom Webster, who is he, he knows the data.

[00:47:25] He says, YouTube, is that big a deal for podcasts? I always was like, you was like, well, they’re just being lazy and they’re just throwing it up there. But he in his articles was saying how important it was for discovery for, yeah. They may not continue to watch your, your podcast on YouTube, but they’re seeing it and they’re liking it over there.

[00:47:41] And they’re going to go subscribe to, if you have it in your comment section or whatever, I was just really shocked on how big an audience and how important YouTube was for podcasters. I just didn’t. I just didn’t think it was. Yeah. And, and 

[00:47:53] Erik Fisher: [00:47:53] I, and I have questions about that in terms of what that. I don’t know w what, what that data really means, because I’m wondering if it’s skewing towards those really popular personality shows that are running a YouTube show or running a YouTube channel, like a YouTube.

[00:48:16] In other words, they’re using a YouTube strategy over there and they also have a podcast. And so their podcasts benefits, whereas instead, coming at it from the angle of that, I keep saying, don’t be a podcast or, and just spit your stuff out over there. Haphazardly have a real strategy about it. And that’s kinda what I’m trying to, figure out doing.

[00:48:34] Like, for example, one of my favorite shows is done legit well recorded video and audio, and put out as audio. It’s the Nate bagasse podcast. Yeah. It’s amazing too. I mean, you can look legit, you could watch it as a YouTube TV show if you wanted to, or subscribe versus via audio, which is what I do. I choose the audio because I want to listen to it as I’m driving around town or on the go 

[00:48:57] Jeff Sieh: [00:48:57] or whatever, she can watch it.

[00:48:58] And it’s like really good. And there are some things like I’ve seen those and like, it’s it has like, I think that’s two or three cameras that are switching, so it’s not just like, yeah, it’s very, and that’s why, I’m always switching cameras trying to keep it active here. You’re doing all this.

[00:49:14] Right. And so, so I think that’s important. And I, one of my guys I watched every Saturday, Nick Nimmin who does a live streaming show. He yeah, he has, he, he has an ATM switcher that does it automatically for him, but he also takes some of that stuff and puts it as a podcast where he answers questions from the show.

[00:49:29] And so I think you’re totally right about doing it as a strategy. I just was really, I was really shocked at how important it was for podcasters. And I think. Like I said that most podcasts are, yeah, they’re on apple, they’re on Spotify and they really may not even think about YouTube. So very, very interesting.

[00:49:45] So yeah. I want to bring up some comments how to grow your business over in YouTube says yes, up overcast ticks the box for usability already have two podcasts added, have a guess what they are. Hey, thank you, man. I I’m hoping you met beyond the to-do list and the, this show social media is live, so appreciate you doing that, but that’s great.

[00:50:02] I’m glad we were able to help and yeah. Ian showed up as well. He goes, I’m already it. Sorry I follow you there. That’s right. You’ve got to quit saying subscribe. We’ve got to say, start saying follow us on podcasts, Anthony. He says for sure strategies are needed and knowing what you’re doing is key hints.

[00:50:17] The challenge. Yeah. And it’s, I think you’re right with the YouTube strategy, Anthony. It depends on. You know what you’re trying to get out of YouTube. And what are you trying to grow? Your podcast is different than growing your YouTube channel. Are they the same? So I think Eric’s point about really thinking about what your strategy is over there is super, super important.

[00:50:36]Final Thoughts

[00:50:36] And with that, I want to let Eric talk about where they can find him. What’s the best place who you got coming up on your show, some your favorite episodes, that kind of stuff. 

[00:50:46] Erik Fisher: [00:50:46] Yeah. Well, it’s funny, you mentioned Johnny Cash. Cause I literally just had him on for his most recent book, which was called soundtracks.

[00:50:52] It’s amazing. I would jump in there. That’s where I would go because it’s one of, I mean, I did an episode late last year about my top five productivity books. This would be in the top 10. It might even inch into the top five. I’m not sure yet, but it’s definitely. Definitely my favorite book of his let’s I think it’s, it definitely has crossed into that barrier.

[00:51:10] So, check that out, go to beyond the to-do list.com or type in, beyond the to-do list on any of your podcasts player, apps of choice and hit, follow, or subscribe to join in 

[00:51:23] Jeff Sieh: [00:51:23] that’s right. So, by the way, I’m gonna pull up one more question from Ian and we kind of talked about this and he goes, so would you put it as an audio gram on YouTube or the video, if you could only do an audiogram, I think that’s least movement going on.

[00:51:36] I know there’s some, I think repurpose.io and maybe even headliner we’ll do it for you and they’ll actually pull images that kind of match your transcript, which is kind of cool. And I know some people do that a video, I think it’s always gonna work better and I know you do video for your podcast, so I would do your video because you got the stuff, you got, everything that looks nice.

[00:51:54] So I would, I would rather see video than just audio. Graham. That’s my opinion in here. Yep. Same here. So with that, we appreciate all you guys being here. Once again, when a shout out to our the sponsors of this show, e-comm social media news, live.com forward slash EPM, and also the incredible folks over at restream at social media news, live.com forward slash re team restrained.

[00:52:18] Go check them out. If you want to do a live show, you’ve got to have those tools and make sure you follow Eric like at beyond the to-do list and checking him out. He’s got like, he’s got a huge back catalog. They’re all good. So go check them out, go check him out. And so don’t forget that we are a podcast.

[00:52:34] And also if you want to be reminded of these shows, you can text us at night. I know three, two eight seven nine zero eight eight to get around the old pesky algorithms. We’d love for you guys to follow us over there and get the updates it’s about the show and our next show, by the way is on next Friday, regular time.

[00:52:50] We’re gonna go back to 11:00 AM Eastern. 10:00 AM central time and that’s on June 4th. And once again, you can find us on Facebook, LinkedIn, YouTube, and Amazon live. Eric, thank you so much for being here today and we will see you guys all next time. Bye now. 


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