SHOW TRANSCRIPT

This transcript is automatically generated by Descript.  Any errors or omissions are unintentional.

Jeff Sieh: ​[00:00:00] Hello folks. Welcome to Social Media News Live.

I’m Jeff c and you’re not.

Conor Brown: And I am Connor Brown, and this is the show that keeps you up to date on what’s happening in the world of social media and more.

Jeff Sieh: Have you ever wondered why your email list feels more like an empty room than a buzzing community? Maybe you’re curious on how the pros roll out the welcome mat for every new subscriber on their list, or maybe you’re finally ready to share the lead magnet that’s been hiding in your drafts. If any of those ring true, then you are in the right place.

’cause today we’re chatting with Paul Gower, the mastermind behind powwows.com, and a seasoned email marketer who’s turned subscribers into super fans for more than two decades. Paul’s pulling back the curtain on building a list from scratch, crafting a friendly welcome sequence in kit and nudging readers to hit reply.

So sit back, clear your schedule, clear your mind to get ready for this week’s episode. Of Social Media News Live. Paul, how you doing, my friend?

Paul Gowder: I am [00:01:00] great, Jeff. Thanks so much. I appreciate it. I’m looking forward to talking email again with you guys. and, and of course your, your loyal listeners out there. I love the show. Thanks for having me back.

Jeff Sieh: Yeah, this is gonna be great.

Conor Brown: We always love having Paul Paul’s one of our favorite people. Uh, if you don’t know who Paul is, you should. Paul Gower is the owner and founder of powwows.com, which has been the leading online community celebrating Native American culture for the past 25 years. Having visited hundreds of powwows around North America, Paul’s been able to capture those events and publish them to millions of viewers on his website and YouTube channel.

Having experienced the trials and tribulations of running a successful online community for the past 25 years, Paul helps other entrepreneurs navigate the successes and pitfalls of building an online business Through is public speaking and consulting services. Again, welcome back to the show, Paul.

Jeff Sieh: I wanna do a shout out to our friends over at Ecamm. They’re the ones who sponsor the show. You can find out more about them by going to [00:02:00] Ecamm dot com slash jeff. That’s right Ecamm dot com slash jeff. If you use code Jeff 15, you’ll save 15% on your first purchase over there. They are what make the show happen so thankful for them to actually sponsor this crazy little show that we like to do.

So, uh, without further ado, let’s get started. We’re gonna be talking about how to kickstart your email. once again, if you have any questions about this, make sure you drop them down wherever you’re watching from. ’cause we wanna bring those questions up on screen. So. Paul, you’ve built kind of one of the largest online communities that I know, like with over a million followers, which is mind boggling.

So, and you, but you’ve done this over the past 25 years. So why do you believe email marketing should be the, at the core of community building, and for marketers and small businesses? Why do you think email is so important?

Paul Gowder: Oh, there’s, there’s, there’s a few reasons. For me, it is the place where I feel like I can really, truly engage with my audience. Social media is awesome and, and on our Facebook page we [00:03:00] have, uh, 1.2 million followers Now. And, you know, you go back and you look at your stats, it’s, it’s crazy to see when you post something that, you know, maybe it’ll, it’ll get read by, you know, some, some days it’s 10,000, some days it’s 50,000.

Some days it’s 500. You just never know. But I feel like when I write something in email, I know everybody on the list is gonna get it. It, it’s the place where I feel like I can really be me and I can write from my perspective and talk with people. I, I think so many people miss that thinking it’s a, a one to many relationship, but it’s not.

It, it really is. You can make it a community. but for right now, there things are changing so fast. Jeff, you know, you talk a lot about ai. And AI is fantastic, but I think the thing that’s gonna separate all of us in what we do online is being our authentic self. And you can use AI to help you, you know, do that, especially with email.

But e writing emails and being yourself in emails is one of the things that will [00:04:00] separate you from all the other things out there, especially when we start seeing more and more and more ai. And I think that’s what people are gonna resonate with. You know, you mentioned EAM and that I, I talked about this on my profile to this week, is the reason I love EA M1, it’s a great tool, but it’s the people behind EA and it’s the community feeling.

It’s, it’s the, you know, the people that actually care and help you and those little touches. Building community and building relationships with people through email is one of the things that’s gonna set us apart in the, as we move forward in, in this ever changing social media landscape.

Jeff Sieh: So you, it’s funny you said that, Paul, because one of the things, I read an article this morning, they were talking about the rise of AI content. Through mostly, you know, the written word and stuff and, and having this that’s not controlled by the algorithms. It’s something that somebody opts in. It’s kind of like a podcast.

I think the podcasting live video and, and email are kind of different from the algorithm, but the importance of people are going to [00:05:00] really dive into like, live events emails where you’re actually talking back and forth to people and these things that AI can’t really mimic right now, I think is, is really, really key.

And, and we’re thinking, I know you’re doing the same thing of like, okay, how’s this gonna change our business? Because it’s gonna change, I think, every aspect of it eventually. So, um, I think being proactive and thinking how you can grow your list now because this is where people are gonna wanna have those interactions is, is key.

Paul Gowder: And you know, email is, things have things change so fast, right? I mean. Facebook Messenger is, is being used so much more now. There’s, I mean, my daughter, she, she does messaging on Instagram and Snapchat, and a little bit of text. I mean, the way we talk to each other has changed so fast. But the one thing that has been proven is we continue to, to read and open email that is things change.

Email has been that one platform in, in the whole digital space that has really stayed around from the beginning. [00:06:00] And, and I think there’s a reason for it. It, it is a great platform for messaging, collaborating, talking. and so there’s gonna be a lot of trends and a lot of things that, that try to take over.

But I think emails is here to stay and, uh, so many people slept on it for a long time. But, as you read, you know, Jeff, you know, um, you go out there and look at some of the, the, the talkers and movers in, in the marketing world, and everybody’s circling back to it now.

Jeff Sieh: right. Yeah.

Conor Brown: Well, I love what you said. Yeah. I love what you said, Paul, about how people perceive it as one to many, but in reality it’s the most one-to-one platform that we have as marketers. Um, I. I also think the huge power in, in email is the ability that once you put someone on your list and you start to learn more about them, what their preferences are, and we’ll talk a little bit more about this later, you can start making emails even more specific to their wants and their needs and their, their previous actions, which I think is, is just more powerful than any [00:07:00] other thing out there when it comes to personalization.

And when it starts, you have to start with a list of course. And, and you know, the best time to start your email list was yesterday. The second best time to start it is now is today. So Paul, for for listeners who haven’t started even with the email list building it yet, what do you think are some, some great first steps that, that you would recommend them taking?

Paul Gowder: I like to have people start with, uh, um, doing, something really simple. I, know people get overwhelmed with the whole aspect of email and, oh my God, I’ve gotta write something every week. let’s put that aside now. I think that the easiest place to start is building that welcome sequence. Jeff mentioned it earlier.

I, that’s where I like to have people start, because we can just put in a little bit of work ahead of time and then it’s something you can use forever. So I, recommend, you know, building a three or five email series, email sequences, are just a, series of emails that are delivered automatically and just [00:08:00] take.

your elevator pitch. we all should have, you know, a 30 second 60 second about who we are, what we do. Take that, I mean, put it, put that in chat, GPT and have it write your welcome sequence. You know, we, can use AI in here and still be ourselves. Start there, right? And build that three email, series of email, series of emails into a sequence.

That’s the best place to start. And then just do a simple landing page with, you know, just a form on your website, saying, Hey, I, I, here’s who I am, here’s what I’m about. Subscribe. It doesn’t have to be super complicated. We can make this complicated, right? I mean, you’re about we can do all kinds of stuff with behavior and tags and yeah, we can get crazy with it.

But to start, let’s build that simple email series. Build one simple landing page and, start there.

Jeff Sieh: Yeah. Uh, we’ve got some, great questions already popping up from our amazing audience, and I wanna bring this up from Ralph, from Grit and Growth Business. He goes, what are some ways to get your email marketing [00:09:00] to rise beyond the spam in everybody’s inbox? Now that we are all getting hundreds of emails a day, this is a real issue in my view, which I think it’s an issue for a lot of things.

social media examiner talked about, they started getting into, you know, the promotions tab or one of those other tabs that you don’t wanna be in for on Gmail, and so it was a big issue and they’re still dealing with kind of the aftermath of that. So how do we as marketers and small business owners, Paul, get in the, the, the place we need to and get those people opening our emails.

Paul Gowder: So the first thing I would say is, let’s. Let’s look at our subject lines and let’s make sure that we’re writing something that is actually going to be scroll stopping that makes people look at it. So let’s you know if you can use personalization, if you can use, use some emojis, use some language there that is more than just weekly newsletter, or.

Here’s, here’s the latest post, here’s my latest podcast [00:10:00] episode. Let’s get away from that kind of stuff and actually put some language in your, in your subject line that’s gonna get people to click. Then in your email, let’s make sure we’re putting some things in there that are gonna spark conversations, spark people either clicking or replying.

One of the things I’m using lately is, Liz Wilcox’s List Gadgets. it’s easy with that to put polls inside your email. it is so easy to build that. It’s a cool little tool. and she, they came out with a new feature yesterday, where you’re able to actually let people write replies and people can up vote.

It’s almost almost like a mini Reddit inside your email. So putting some stuff like that or just asking a question in your email to get people to reply. And then second step is you replying to them. Those are all signals to Yahoo and Gmail and these other places that, hey, this, this email is actually, you know, wanted and people wanna read it.

So let’s keep it outta promotions. Let’s keep sending it to the inbox.

Jeff Sieh: Hmm, that’s a great point. So getting the more, what you’re saying is getting more interaction [00:11:00] from your emails instead of just people reading it, like asking them the questions, have them do some sort of action signals, the algorithm to put it in those, the right place to be seen, so, okay. Gotcha.

Paul Gowder: You know, we all want our email, you know, to whether it’s to drive traffic to our website, to, to get people to buy something. Uh, if we’re selling a course or a service, yes, that is the ultimate, but take small wins and just ask people to reply to you. one, like Connor said, this is the best one-on-one engagement tool you’ll ever get.

And ha, starting that conversation. One is going to tell Google this is a good email, but two, you never know what’s gonna come from that one-on-one conversation.

Jeff Sieh: Yeah, that’s a great point.

Conor Brown: Yeah, and especially being authentic and, you know, becoming a place where people want to get your emails and open them and read them. That comes with, with you sharing your expertise and your authenticity. But you know, Paul, you did mention we can use AI to help us craft these things. And that goes into a question from Chris Stone, our friend, who [00:12:00] says, I would imagine that if you started using exactly what AI was giving you and sending that directly to your audience, they’d be gone.

They’d stop opening those sorts of things. So Paul, how do you balance authenticity with using AI to, to create these emails?

Paul Gowder: Yes. And And I do, I use AI to help me write ’cause I. It’s a much better writer than I am. So what I try to do though when I’m writing an email is I always try to tell a story, talk about what I’m doing, you know, putting that personal touch into it and telling chat, chat GPT. It’s like, Hey look, here’s what I did this week.

Here’s what I’ve got going on. Um, and giving it an outline of what I wanna do. Then you can take it and massage it. Never take what they give you and copy and paste it directly. Always, you know, massage a little bit. Make it your own. But it don’t just put in there, write me an email about this week’s podcast.

I mean, that’s not gonna work, right? It’s write me an email, catch my audience up on what I’ve been doing. Here’s some [00:13:00] things that happened with me. you know, here’s a little behind whatever it is. You know, tell these little stories and then let it ba write based on that. Again, it’s about adding your auten authenticity to the email.

Jeff Sieh: Yeah, so one of the things, and like my Tuesday emails are mostly always me. Like it’s, it’s a story. It’s a thing I’m learning. I mean, we just talked yesterday about, what was it about? I can’t even remember. It was really good. but, and like the one I sent out today, I, ’cause I remember the one about today I had a little bit of story in it and then I talked about the show coming up, up.

So, but I, but I use, I don’t use AI for the Tuesday one, but on the, the show one, I usually use it to help craft, like you were saying. And the best tool that I found is lex.page because, uh, we’re gonna be talking about Kit a little bit ’cause that’s what you and I both use. And Connor uses it well. And it actually ties in and reads my past emails, uses my voice, does the subject line.

So for me, it’s not so much, Hey, Chad, GBT, write me an email. It’s, Hey, it’s looking at all my past ones. It’s got my voice. I go in and then tweak it to make it [00:14:00] sound like me, take out the m dashes and all that kind of stuff. But, um, but that’s one of the things that is, it’s very helpful, but it’s still my voice, it’s my stories, it’s my show that I’m, that I’m promoting.

So lex.page is great and we will talk about some more, uh, things a little bit. But, let’s talk a little bit about Kit. And you guys can find, you know, lex.page and all that stuff. If you go to jeffy.com/toolbox, all the tools that I use for this show are there. So you can go, uh, sign up for Kit if you want to try that out.

But, um, one of the things about Kit is it, it’s kind of our platform of choice, but. And it’s a great option for beginners, but what feature should a newbie focus on to get the most outta starting with their email marketing? I mean, kit’s got a free plan. MailChimp’s got a free plan, you know, uh, AWeber, those are all different services.

So what should we look at if we’re just getting started? Maybe we’ve had a free account somewhere. What do we need to look at for, picking an email platform?

Paul Gowder: I, I love Kip because I just, the interface to me works and it, [00:15:00] it, it’s how it is more organized for me. I think it’s a much simpler thing. I, I was on MailChimp for a long time and it’s a great platform. To me that feels a little more complicated. It’s, they like making emails pretty and Kip focuses more on making emails engaging.

So here’s where I would start, whether whatever email platform you’re on is write your emails, in text, maybe a picture or two. there’s so many. I, I was talking with somebody the other day about their email and they sent me this PDF and they’re like, okay, so how do I get my email to look like this?

I’m like, you don’t, don’t, don’t do that. Please don’t do that. Just, just write text. so that’s the, that’s the first thing I wanna see is, is if you’re gonna start writing emails, let’s just make them simple, right? Just use a text-based email template and just write after emails. It’s, it’s gonna do much better with your audience.

That’s gonna do much better again with that whole deliverability thing. don’t try to make it look like a sales paper or, you know, a flyer that you see in your mailbox. It don’t, [00:16:00] please don’t do that.

Jeff Sieh: Right.

Conor Brown: I think people are just so done with stock images, and especially when we go back to authenticity, when we go back to storytelling and content. It’s all about. That. I will say one thing about MailChimp, I think they just got rid of the automations in their free plan. So I think the power in email is, yeah, you, you, you can have a list and you can send out a, a cadence when you schedule it weekly, but it’s really those automations that, that are what get you to the next level.

So I would start with a tool that, that lets you do that from the get ’cause ’cause to, but mostly density. Sean’s point, he’s, he loves Kit, but I’m so just so inconsistent with my emails. Paul is right. Kit is simple. So those automations are something that can help you stay consistent. ’cause you said it and forget it.

One thing I want to ask you about Paul is, new marketers often worry about, what do I even send, right? What am [00:17:00] I gonna start? We set up our, our initial automation, like, Hey, here we are. This is what we’re about, this is how we can help you. But after that, what is it? You know, Jeff’s great ’cause he finds a funny story every single week.

You are great ’cause you do the same thing. You also have a backlog of so much great content that you can consistently share with people when you’re first starting. How do you find the types of content that that’s gonna work for? Emails so that you can be consistent as well.

Paul Gowder: Yeah, so I, I love, I love starting with your welcome sequence and then once we get that again, I don’t think you should worry about weekly broadcast at first. Weekly messages are great and there’s a place for ’em, but after you get your welcome sequence, let’s think about what is the next kind of topical series of content that you have.

So Connor, you know, on your website, you have a whole bunch of stuff on that other place where the light doesn’t shine. Um, over there in.[00:18:00]

Conor Brown: I don’t have any content about SeaWorld, so I don’t know what you’re talking about.

Paul Gowder: But you know, could we build a series of emails, especially right now on Epic Universe, right? Could, could you sit down and for a couple of days, focus on writing five emails about what is it that you need to know before your trip for Epic Universe? And if you can do that, right? If you can write something like that, that’s gonna take your pressure off.

You don’t have to worry about being consistent and sitting down every Monday to write that email, because after they do your welcome sequence, you can move them right into this next one. And then. Next month or the month after. Let’s write another one, then let’s write another one. I mean, on, on pows.com. I, I don’t even know how many sequences I have and I’m getting ready to write two or three more because it, you know, put in the work up front and then it, it kind of takes care of itself.

those are the things I think you should start with because it is so overwhelming and people get so worried, you know, about trying to show up every week and, God, what am I gonna say this [00:19:00] time? You know, let’s, let’s just take what you already have. Let’s turn those into some email automations.

And I. Take your readers through those kind of journeys. And one, it’s gonna be super engaging because, if somebody, like in your welcome sequence, say if you, Connor again, like it, the end of your welcome sequence, you say, Hey, by the way, I also have some information on what to expect. It’s your first trip on Epic universe.

If somebody clicks on that, they actually do want to read that content and they’re gonna go through those five or six emails, really excited because you’re sharing exactly what they asked for. Yeah. So that, that’s the kind of the two things. Welcome sequence, and then let’s build some content sequences.

Conor Brown: so when you think through that, Paul, are, are you, I think a good way to, to kind of look at it is a sequence should kind of answer a question you, you always get asked. Right? Or, or a topic that people are always asking you for advice for that makes sense for your business and stuff.

When you’re coming up with all these sequences, are you coming up with, okay, what’s gonna be the next sequence that’s going to appeal to the most people, or what’s [00:20:00] gonna be the next sequence that can then dovetail off of this sequence that that just ended? Because I’m always interested with you on how you decide what’s next and how do you decide, okay, it’s time to put these people somewhere else into a different sequence.

Paul Gowder: I, I’ve done it a couple different ways. I mean, my most popular sequence is what to expect at your first powwow, and that really came about because of the number of questions I get that are the same questions every time. How do I find a powwow? Am I allowed to go? What do I wear? What do I bring? What does this mean?

Those kind of questions. I can answer all of them in that series of emails. And so it’s, it’s, that one is so easy to get people to go into it. ’cause somebody e messages me and says, oh my God, I don’t know what to do. What time do I need to show up? I can say, Hey, look, I’ll help you. Here’s what, what I think you should do, but then go check out the series of emails and it’s gonna answer all your questions.

So that one was kind of based on need and questions, but then I also look and see, like one of the [00:21:00] ones I’m getting ready to write, I look and see that, a lot of things that are, or a lot of traffic on our website goes to some of our articles about recipes and food and restaurants and. So I saw that the other day and I’m like, you know, we do get a lot of traffic about that.

People love seeing that content. Well, what if I write an email series about all of our food content and kind of take people through all of that and highlight it? That might it, it might not attract thousands, but the people that really want it, you know, I can offer it up to them and it’s gonna be another kind of journey I can take them on.

So it, it’s kind of, you know, it’s a different, different ways. If, if you see that you have a lot of traffic on a particular area or a lot of questions, let’s look at that. then, then let’s look at, you know, what is it that maybe you think could be a good path. I mean, um, again, it’s so easy in the travel space to think of these like, you know, what to kind of, what to pack on your first cruise.

That’s a really easy series of, of kind of steps to go through. Um, so it’s, it’s a variety of ways and, um, so yeah, I’m, I’m constantly [00:22:00] looking at our content and our emails and our questions and then figuring out what I can add to it.

Conor Brown: You can also do that. Social posts too. Like I had a social post that people real resonated with people about, you know, the s’mores old fashioned here. And I’m like, oh wow, people really like that. Let’s craft like an email sequence around the best old fashions at Disney World. You know? So I think you can, if you don’t have a website that’s getting a lot of traffic, use the other things that you’ve created content for, and that’s have resonated with people.

Jeff Sieh: Well, since you mentioned it, Connor, go ahead and, and tell people where they can find the drunk Disney, show or whatever you have going on.

Conor Brown: I don’t know. I don’t know where you can find the Drunk Disney show, but you can follow me at theme park, happy hour on Instagram. Yes. The drunk Disney show is whenever Jeff Z comes into town. That’s

Jeff Sieh: That’s right. Exactly. so real quick, I wanna go back to kind of, what, Sean was saying from, but, but mostly Disney. The, the str Paul’s a power user. Like he’s got sequences like lead to sequences, lead to sequences. It’s like he is really in, in [00:23:00] depth. But when you first get started, Paul, what would you say?

Because what I have done, and I’m based off of your kind of teaching and training, is that I have a, the main sequence when somebody comes to my website, but I can actually craft that for different, I don’t have to rewrite everything. I can just copy that sequence, change it, like, Hey, you’re downloaded my toolkit and just change it a little bit.

But it’s the same kind of sequence. You don’t have to write a new sequence every time, is what I’m kind of getting at. Correct.

Paul Gowder: Yeah, exactly. I, I love having different entry points based on whatever, you know, opt-in or, or topic, like, if you go and speak, like when we spoke at, uh, podcast back in January, I had a specific, welcome sequence that the people there. It wasn’t a complete rewrite, I just took what I already had and kind of tailored it just for podcasts.

So yeah, use the study and kit’s really easy about just being able to duplicate a, a series of emails and then customize it. Yeah, it’s super easy. And kind of talking about that, I see the question down there about, you know, how to effectively build an email list. Th this is how you can [00:24:00] really grow fast, is by offering entry points into your emails that are questions and pain points in your business.

So again, for me, what are your most common questions? I’ll answer them in a series of emails that people are gonna wanna click on that and they’re gonna wanna subscribe. I think again, using email series is such a great way to grow your email list.

Conor Brown: Yeah. I think one thing that’s really important for the people to understand is Paul’s been at this for a very long time. He’s tried all of the marketing channels, right? I think it speaks volumes that Paul, wouldn’t you say your first action you want someone to take, whether it’s a piece of content that they’ve engaged with you on, on social media, or YouTube, Facebook, or an article they’ve read, you want to capture their email so then you can kind of craft what they do next.

And that’s kind of what you teach other people to do. If they have a product, a service, or they’re, they’re just a creator, the first real thing you should do is, I need that [00:25:00] email address, right.

Paul Gowder: Yes. Yes, it, that should be your number one call to action. I see so many people like podcasters. I, I talked about this going back to podcast. I. If you listen to a podcast today, listen to what their call to action is. It’s gonna, it’s probably gonna be something like, Hey, please go and like and subscribe.

rate us on iTunes. Click us on Spotify. It’s gonna be like this long litany of all this stuff to do. How about just make your call to action? Hey, by the way, if you want to know more about what I do, please go here and subscribe to my email list. Then you can do all those other things. You can get them to do that.

But let’s make our one call to action. Get them on your email list. Again, the question about how do you effectively build, you have to start asking for email. You have to make, your email opt-ins, your asking for emails, a priority, whether it’s in your podcast episode, your live Restream, your social media content, or on the website.

I mean, go and surf a website today and look at some of these websites that, where the email is in the footer and it just says subscribe. That’s [00:26:00] not how you build an email list, right? Yeah. So you gotta ask for it. Make it a priority.

Jeff Sieh: Yeah. By the way, if you wanna join my email list, you can go to jeffy.com/news. To find out more, we do a, a, uh, email about Tuesdays and Wednesdays, and then one always on Fridays about the show. Jeff c.com/news. See, I had that ready and waiting just for you to say

Paul Gowder: exactly. Yeah. There you go.

Jeff Sieh: and we’re experimenting with some, uh, new graphics as you can see right there.

So, uh, that’s all done in chat, GPT. So, um, one of the questions I want to ask you, Paul, is that you’ve been doing it like you said, 25 years. I mean, that was probably before email even started, but, um, uh, I wanna know from, you’ve got over a hundred K subscribers and in your niche, so I want to talk, talk about, like, looking back, what’s one of the things that you wish you had done sooner when you’re building your list?

In other words, like what early lesson did you learn that could help someone like new, avoid a pitfall in their first year of doing email marketing?

Paul Gowder: Not asking for email at the beginning. Yeah, I mean, that, [00:27:00] that’s the the biggest thing I see. I look back on, you know, when we started our, our first really big thing that, which started blowing up is when we had a forum and people had to give us their email address to register. And I used the forum software to send emails and that’s when I started realizing how powerful email is.

’cause I would send something out, using V Bulletin, shout out Lou, and you could see that people would re reply and people would click. And it was such an, an effective way of, of getting traffic and getting people to come in. But I didn’t do anything with those emails. I didn’t keep them. and over the years that, that has all changed and I didn’t get them into my email list.

So that’s, that’s the number one thing I see is not doing that early enough. and then the, the early mistakes I did, I made is, is trying to think, I, I spent years thinking that email was, um, a marketing channel where I was trying to sell every time I sent an email or trying to get people to drive tra, you know, click on [00:28:00] this link as, my kind of primary feature.

And that’s still important, right? ’cause that’s how we make our money is over here at Powwows.com is is advertising and stuff like that. So it is important, but I was, when I sat down and really thought about email is I looked at my past emails and I was really just shouting at the audience, Hey, do this, Hey do this, Hey, do this.

and so that’s when I really made that change. It was about, oh gosh, it been about 10 years now and made that change to writing emails more personal, talking to them in my voice instead of just, Hey, this brand says go click here. yeah, so those are the two big mistakes is, really just not using email the right way and thinking of it more as a conversation and more as a community tool.

that shift, that mindset shift changed everything about how I do email.

Jeff Sieh: Yeah, I’d agree. That’s what, when you had taught me that, and you and Liz, that made a huge difference in my responses, the way I write emails, everything. And so that conversational style. If you think about the, the good ones that aren’t, like the [00:29:00] 4,400 or the, you know, morning brew, which is kind of a digest thing.

The ones that you read are people that you feel like you’re close to that provide value or tell a story, you know, educate or entertain. So I think that being that conversational style of you writing to like someone you would, a friend you’d send a, a message to, that’s what changed everything for me and I appreciate, you know, your training on that.

Conor Brown: I also think, you know, a point here from, grit and growth a again, yes, Paul, but the problem is people are so annoyed with spam that they are very reluctant to give their email and follow through. I think that that. Is true when it’s crap, right? Like when it’s, it’s something that they don’t think they’re gonna get value from.

And to Chris Stone’s point, tell people what value they’re gonna get and then give it to them. So I think people are more open to giving their email address when they think they’re gonna get something of value and they’re more likely to say, subscribed and click through those [00:30:00] links and, and engage with you when you do show up for that.

And I think that that kind of dovetails into the importance of these welcome sequences, which we’ve already talked a lot about. But Paul, how does that kind of, one, set the tone for your new subscribers? And then also how can you kind of craft an email sequence that immediately starts providing value?

Because a lot of it is, Hey, here’s who I am, here’s what I’m about, which is great, but at the end of the day, you also want to give the person value immediately. So. What are some ways that, that an onboarding sequence can, can help just improve engagement overall?

Paul Gowder: All right. So I, I said earlier, I think your welcome sequence is where you start, and you should write that first. So when we talk about the welcome sequence, it, it should be your elevator pitch, but we’re gonna write it in how we want our audience to perceive it. We’re not gonna start our first email with, Hey, I’m Paul Gaer and here’s what I do.

It’s gonna be [00:31:00] more of, I’ve done this for this long and I know that this is a pain point for you. I know this is a pain point for you. Here’s how I think you should handle it. It’s gonna be more, we’re gonna write it. To help the audience, not just, you know, tell them who we are in, in our accolades, right?

But then the second part of that is after we get that welcome sequence written, then we’re gonna start writing these other pieces of content, these other welcome sequences, whether it’s what to expect at your first powwow, what to pack for your first Disney cruise, those kind of things. And we’re gonna take our welcome sequence and we’re gonna move that out of the way.

We’re going to make our what to expect at your first powwow, the entry point. So if they subscribe, they’re gonna, the first email is gonna be, Hey, I know powwows can be overwhelming and I know you’re probably anxious. Here’s how I’m gonna help you. When they finish that, then I send them to the welcome sequence.

So that’s kind of the step two part, is let’s craft these, these opt-ins, these lead magnets, and deliver that value right up front. Answer the question [00:32:00] immediately. As soon as they subscribe, you send them an email that is going to kind of set the tone. That’s how you really get people that are going to stay on your list, you know, worrying about.

Spam con, you talk about, you know, there’s so many crappy newsletters out there. It’s because people are trying to force themselves to write weekly newsletters or daily enewsletters. Let’s, again, let’s don’t worry about that right now. Write these series of emails and you will be amazed at the re the readership, the retention, the open rates on my sequences are sometimes double what my weekly newsletters are.

and you know, because they’re, they’ve asked for that and then we give it to ’em. Chris Stone, you’re so right. Tell them what you’re gonna get and then deliver it and pay off that value. And you’re gonna see real success with that.

Jeff Sieh: So one of the things I wanna hone in on what you said at the beginning is the way you, the way you craft those and the way you talk to people in those, the, the welcoming sequence and what I, I’m a big fan of StoryBrand, and what you were saying fits right into that because it’s not [00:33:00] about you. You are not the hero.

You can talk about yourself, but you make your reader the hero of the story. Like, hey, and you’re kind of like the Jedi. Uh, to use a star, star Wars thing, it is like you’re the Jedi. That, that guides them along. Like, listen, I have struggled with this and I finally figured this out. Let me help you and do it in a way that’s very transparent and a very, you know, you make them the hero, not yourself is what I’m hearing.

Instead of blasting like, Hey, I’m Paul Gout, or I have a million Facebook page, you should listen to me because I’m so important. It’s different. It’s a different way to, to craft those emails. Is that what you’re saying?

Paul Gowder: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. We’re gonna write it to try to provide help and value to them mixing in who you are and why they, why they should care about what you do. But yeah, we’re not gonna write these as as our resume piece. We’re gonna write these as, you know, answering our e readers pain points.

Jeff Sieh: Yeah. And you could do that in a way where you introduce yourself as well. I mean, that’s what you do in

Paul Gowder: Sure. Yes, yes.

Jeff Sieh: still but you, but that’s not the focus of. This is why you should listen to me. It’s like, Hey, I’ve been here. You’ve got this issue, [00:34:00] or you’ve downloaded this thing to help solve this issue.

This is some other things that I teach or can help you with or what I’ve experienced. And then you move them into that process to get to know you better in that way. So I mean, it’s, it’s an art to it. It’s not something that you can just like bang out really quickly. You have to kind of craft it for your voice.

But, once you do it, like you said, it, it makes a huge difference in keeping people subscribed and wanting to open your emails. On that note.

Paul Gowder: Gary, I was gonna say, Gary V wrote this book called Jab Jab Punch, and it’s a, it’s a mindset, right? Provide BA value, provide value, provide value. Then make your ask. So when you’re writing your welcome sequence, you’ve got to provide value in all those emails. And then maybe your last one is, oh, by the way, I offer a service and you can pay me to do this, right?

But you’ve gotta establish the trust and know the likability and actually show them that you have value and you have worth. Then you make your pitch.

Jeff Sieh: Yeah. Guy Kawasaki calls it the NPR kind of. Strategy because, you know, NPR gives all this value, this free public television, all this stuff, and then they have a pledge drive. You know, they [00:35:00] have that once a year and you know, that’s when they hit it. But they’ve been given value that entire time. So I think that’s really important.

Um, on that note, you know, I know you’ve built a 52,email sequence that drives traffic. You kinda mentioned that a little bit. Like that’s insane. That’s, uh, for a year they’re getting an email that you have automated. So for someone just starting, how long should their first welcome sequence be? How can a beginner plan out a simple, like three to five email sequence without feeling overwhelmed, and then maybe later, you know, adjust that or, or copy and paste it for a new lead magnet or something like that?

Paul Gowder: Yeah. So I don’t think people try to overcomplicate this and think about that when, when we’re writing it has to be perfect the first time. So let, let’s just concentrate on writing your welcome sequence. And putting enough value in it of what you have right now, you can change your welcome sequences.

That, that what to expect. It’s your first powwow. I, I had that email sequence going for several years and then I went back and rewrote it and add, added several emails and it’s doing even [00:36:00] better. So when you’re writing your first one, it’s, it’s not a published book. You can make changes to this. So don’t worry about trying to make it perfect the first time.

Just write, maybe start with three emails. I think we could all come up with three emails that talk about what we do and, and why, why we do it, um, and why people should care. That’s a start there. And then, you know, six months down the road, after you hear from your, your readers and you kind of answer more questions and you do more things, go back and retool it and add a few more.

It’s okay to keep honing these over the years.

Jeff Sieh: Hmm, that’s a great point.

Conor Brown: I think the big thing for so long has been, you know, how do we get. The user’s email address, we give them something for free, right? We give them this lead magnet, and for so long it was A PDF, right? It was a PDF download of something. It was a PDF checklist. It was a PDF calendar, whatever it was. But, you know, Paul, you talk a lot about how simple lead magnets, which are sometimes just an email sequence, like the lead magnet.

Lead magnet, is you get [00:37:00] added to this email sequence can work so much better than a fancy PDF download, and they can be easier for you to create and they can provide more value to the customer and also gets them in the rhythm of opening your emails. What are some easy, you know, examples of, so first, you know, lead magnets people can create and, and how do you also use kit as a way to create your lead magnets or distribute your, your lead magnets?

Paul Gowder: Yeah, I mean, kit makes it super easy. You can, you know, create a form or a landing page. it’s really simple. It’s just a, you know, here’s what you’re gonna get. Here’s my call to action. Here’s the form. Uh, I think that’s, that’s the best way. Then you just create the automation in kit to deliver those series of emails.

But first ones that you should create, and we talked about it a little bit earlier. look at your content. Look at, I tell people to go look at your website. How’s it organized? Are you organized by topics? Do you have WordPress categories? Maybe that should be some of your first sequences. If you’ve already organized your [00:38:00] content into these vertical, well, you already have some, some sequences there that you can take your readers through.

so start there. Just look at what, what you already have. Yeah, but you’re so right Connor, these, these PDFs, I think that they’re, they’re okay, but. How many of us have downloaded A PDF from a lead magnet? Opened it, looked at it, and then tomorrow we forgot we even downloaded it. Whereas if you build it as a series of emails, you know what happens tomorrow?

They get email number two and they read email number two. Right? And they don’t forget about you. You can make this thing of, Jeff mentioned, I have one that’s 52 weeks long. you can make these longer and longer and continue to build that engagement and keep people interested. Yeah. I I, I love delivering value in a series of emails as opposed to just a one-time PDF download.

Jeff Sieh: So let’s, I want to kind of throw like a wrench. Not a wrench, but a little rabbit trail because you have told me, and for years that, not years, but you’ve told me, reading my emails that I should take my emails [00:39:00] that I write and put them in a sequence. So let’s talk about like the next steps. Let’s say we’ve done this, we’ve got a thing, we’re, we’re emailing for a year.

You have been encouraging me, which I have not done yet, is to take some of those emails and put them in a a sequence. So can you talk about taking some of your evergreen stuff and creating a sequence from that? How does that work? Why would you want to do that? ’cause I still am on the

Paul Gowder: Yeah. Okay. the first one I did like, this is what I call my throwback Thursday sequence on powells.com. We have tons of articles and actually probably too many, and we’re starting to call out some of some of them, but we have so much content that we’ve published over 20 years, and I know that a reader who subscribes tomorrow doesn’t know that we have.

20 articles on these different topics. So with my throwback Thursday, what I do is at the beginning of the year, we sit down and with the help of V of a VA write these and the emails are just, Hey, we wrote an article about this. You might like it and I think you might like it because this and this and [00:40:00] this.

And then it’s a link to the article. They’re very simple. And then we do one of those every week all the way through the year. That’s a simple one that you can expose people to your past content. And I like it because again, the the person who comes in tomorrow. If we’re sending those kind of emails out as weekly broadcast, when they subscribe tomorrow, they missed the other six that might have been important to them.

But if you do it in a series, everybody starts at email number one and goes all the way through the sequence. So I, I like to think too, is if you are, if you’re gonna think about when you start moving to that next step and writing that weekly email, if you are somebody like you Jeff, who writes weekly emails that, that are evergreen, it doesn’t matter what time type of time of year somebody reads your email, it’s still valuable to them.

Well then could we put them into a sequence instead of sending them out as broadcasts? Because I mean, some of your [00:41:00] emails, Jeff, are, are incredible. I you do a great job on your Tuesday messages and if I recommend your newsletter and somebody subscribes tomorrow. They’re never gonna see that email that came out three weeks ago that I thought was super great because you’re sending them out as weekly broadcast.

But if we put them in an automated series of emails, everybody who subscribes gets all of the emails at different, you know, at different times depending on when you subscribe. So your content, you, you continue to use those great emails that you’ve written. and, and again, going back to what, what mostly Disney said, that starts taking out some of that pressure to sit down and write every week.

Because when we do write an email, say, if you could sit down one week and write two or three, you add those to your series, that’s three more weeks that you can kick back and not worry about it.

Jeff Sieh: Hmm. That’s a great point. I’ve still, still gotta figure that out. So.

Conor Brown: But Rich has a great, uh, uh, point and a great question. He’s asking. He says, I have 1500 subs I haven’t emailed in [00:42:00] over eight months, from scratch. I. Should I send all subs into this new sequence? PS I got Paul’s course. It’s super helpful. So I think this is applicable to so many people. So many people that have the join our email list at the bottom of their website and they’ve been collecting emails in a slow role, but they haven’t done anything to, and now months have gone by.

Years have gone by. How do you kickstart the program? I, is it something where you say, Hey, I know you subscribed a long time ago, but we’re gonna start emailing. And also with that, Paul, you know, keeping in mind we don’t want a whole bunch of people to start unsubscribing right off the get because they never remembered signing up for this thing.

Paul Gowder: I, I think you’d be honest and authentic and you say, Hey, look, I know you subscribed and it’s been a while since I wrote you. I’m gonna start doing some emails again. Are you interested? Do simple emails like that. Don’t try to all you know, your first email blast to them doesn’t have to be this long, super [00:43:00] complicated email.

Just write ’em and say, Hey, by the way, I’m sorry it is been a while, but I’m getting back on this. And then ask them a question, see if you can get some of them to reply to you again. We’re gonna make sure that we stay out of that promotions tab in the spam folders. Ask a very simple, and I’m talking about these emails should be no more than like a paragraph, right?

Very short, A quick call to action. Don’t even put a link in there, just ask for reply. hey, are you still interested in this? or, Hey, what is it about? Why did you subscribe in the first place? What are you looking to get from you? How can I help you? Those kind of just general questions. See if you can get somebody to reply and then we can start working on building that sequence.

And, and thanks Rich for buying the course. please let me know if you have questions as you work through it, but yeah, that I, there’s a lot of people that are in that boat of, they have this email list and they haven’t touched it. Just start with that first little touch point and then go from there.

Jeff Sieh: Mm. Those are great tips. one of the things I do want to do a shout out to are the folks who sponsored the show, Ecamm. You can find out more about them at going to the Ecamm dot com. Forward [00:44:00] slash Jeff, you use Code Jeff 15 to say 15% on your first purchase. In fact, when you, you know, do that and sign up for ECA m they start you on a sequence because they get your email when you sign up and, and it’s really good.

It gives you training. It’s a great example of a good sequence for a product. If you have a company or you’re, you’re trying to sell something the way that Ecamm does, it does it, it’s really, really good. And the way they, they activate their community through email is a really great example. So, oh, this is another great question.

Really quick from Rich that we need to bring on. And he says, question to double opt-in. Yay or nay. That’s a thing, you know, even on Kit, if you try to take it out, they’ll say, oh, here’s all the reasons why you should leave it. So what are your thoughts?

Paul Gowder: So I do, I don’t use double opt-in, but I also prune heavy. So, if somebody’s not opening, uh, they’re, they’re gone pretty quickly. Uh, right now I have a, an email automation that if you haven’t opened something in 90 days, you’re given a couple of chances, but then you’re [00:45:00] gone. So that’s the way I do it.

Um, you know, look at it, case to case, case by case, but I, I don’t use the double opt-in. I just make sure that I prune heavy.

Jeff Sieh: Oh, that’s a great question. Thank you for that, rich. Um, let’s talk about stopping overthinking and start emailing. This is a thing I think a lot of us, you know, rich is actually, he asks great questions ’cause he’s like, I wanna start this again. What do I need to do? And, the hardest thing for me when as I dove into re kind of doing what Rich is talking about, starting again.

’cause I had, I think I had almost 8,000 people on my list and I pruned them heavily, because I had been collecting it for years from my podcast, the Pinterest stuff, but I wasn’t doing anything. And then when I trimmed it, oh my gosh, that was scary. ’cause I’m like, it was over half, like it was a lot. And I did a reactivation sequence based on what Paul was telling me.

But I still started lower, but my open rates went way up and the engagement started happening. So I. It’s scary to do this, but let’s talk about [00:46:00] the overcoming procrastination part of it, Paul, because a lot of entrepreneurs say, you know, email’s important, but then they keep putting it off and they’ll say, I’ll start my newsletter when I have more time.

Which is a thing that we all have said and or they, or they tin like, or we, we all know, we’ve had some people, you know, in our group actually that love to tinker with stuff and they end up tinkering too much with sequences and like opt-ins and all this stuff that they really don’t do the work of engaging their community with email.

So how do you stop when you coach people? How do you coach them to stop overthinking and just start like some mindset shifts that you kind of coach people through?

Paul Gowder: Is, let’s, let’s not shoot for perfection. Let’s shoot for, um, most minimal viable product. Let’s get. Let’s get an email out this week. So whether it’s writing that first three email welcome sequence, or maybe it’s just a one email welcome sequence. Let’s just write one email as simple and quick as you can.

We can perfect it [00:47:00] later, but let’s just send something this week so that, that’s kind of what I try to teach people is let’s not, let’s keep stop putting it off and let’s take action today and let’s see what happens. I mean, rich, you know, you’ve got those 1500 people. How amazing is it if you get, if you get one person to write you back and ask for something from you, there you go.

It’s a win, right? You’ve, you’ve now have a one-on-one conversation and, and a possible sale or, or. Supporter or a fan or whatever it is that you’re going for, that’s one more person that you didn’t have yesterday, right? So just go ahead and send that email out today. Let’s take action now and let’s start getting results now.

And, and then, yeah. So many people like to tinker with email and I’m the same way. You can go in there and you can make this thing, do all kinds of things and make it a super powerful race car, you know, like a rich, we can make the, the NASCAR of, of dirt track and or the Formula One race car, right?

But let’s not worry about that. Let’s just get [00:48:00] it moving down the track first. I.

Jeff Sieh: That’s a great point.

Conor Brown: That’s great. I love that. And you know, I think consistency is key in no, in in everything that you do as, as a creator, right? It’s consistently showing up for your audience, consistently creating content. And also to, to Paul’s point, it, it creates that, Almost like it becomes force of habit, right?

The more you start to do it, the muscle memory builds up and then becomes easier and easier and easier. And Paul, you recently did something, not with email, but with Facebook where you posted every single day for a month in an experiment for consistency and, and seeing what could come from that, you know?

Did you learn anything from that experiment and, and did it apply to becoming more consistent in, in emailing or, or reaching out to your audience more consistently? Overall?

Paul Gowder: I learned a lot What I learned. The biggest lesson, and I knew this going in, is that. do as I say, not as I do. And I do a great [00:49:00] job with powwows.com, but on my personal, um, kind of the coaching consulting email, I have not always followed my own advice. And, and same thing with my personal content. I’m not doing as good as I do over on pows.com.

So that was, it was forcing me to actually look at what I’m doing, look at what I’m saying, how I’m posting content, and, and trying to get some, some muscle memory there. And I’m not gonna continue posting every, every day, obviously. But, seeing, and also seeing what resonated, if people were actually listening, if, if people wanted the kind of content.

Um, I did find Connor, interestingly enough, some of my bourbon posts did really well. So I think now I’m a bourbon influencer. No. Um, but you know, you, you do see what kind of content resonates with people, right? By doing these kinds of experiments. But it is about, you know, give yourself a challenge.

Give yourself the challenge of, Hey, I’m gonna send out an e I’m gonna write my, my one, pa one email sequence today. I’m gonna write my two email, whatever it is, right? Let’s do that today and then next week let’s show up and do something else with [00:50:00] email and let’s start building that consistency. for me, it, it, I’m still working on the personal side of it, but like powwows.com, the first thing I do every day is check my, my inbox, answer those emails, and then I’m in kit doing something with email before I start anything, any other projects.

It’s my inbox and kit to start my day. And it, it really is the priority of the day.

Jeff Sieh: Hmm. That’s really important, I think, and I, I agree that I think most, uh, as we move into this AI centered, uh, world, that this is gonna be more and more important. We do have one more question from Rich that I want to bring up because I think it’s really goodly good. He goes, uh, this is another question.

What about stats after this is, uh, going on? How much attention do you pay to AB testing open rates? Is this a science or is it all a crapshoot?

Paul Gowder: Yes. it’s all of the above. The number one stat I look at is my inbox and how many replies I’m getting. That’s the most important thing to me. Then yes, open rates are important, click through rates are important. I do [00:51:00] occasionally do ab testing. I’ve done enough now that I kind of know what subjects actually work for my audience.

Um, so I don’t do it as often. all that’s important, but Rich, the number one thing is let’s send out an email today. Let not worry about stats. Let’s worry about how many replies you get, and let’s send one email today and then, then six months from now, we can worry about what our open rates are.

Jeff Sieh: So this final question I want to ask, it’s kind of a two part one. Like first of all, you’ve got a hundred K people, so, You have responses, you know, way more than most people do. But for people like me, for Rich, for Connor, who are just kind of, you know, small potatoes maybe, and we’re not getting response, it’s like, it’s pretty quiet out there.

We’re only getting maybe a few opens of replies and can, that can be really discouraging. So what’s your advice for that? And second of all, like what do you, I mean, I was so paranoid when I get unsubscribes, like that would freak me out. So talk about those two things. The quiet phase and then the unsubscribe, and then we’ll, we will come back to you.[00:52:00]

Paul Gowder: you, Montello has said this before and I think it is important if you had three people in your living room, listen, listening to you give a talk, would that be kind of cool that that was, that would be awesome. So as far as how many open rates and how many people click your emails and, and reply, please don’t try to compare yourself to others and, and.

Please don’t try to compare yourself to what we do@powells.com. We’ve been doing it for a long time and, and have a bigger list. If you can get one person to reply this week, I think that’s a huge win, right? And, and it’s not something you should diminish. Um, unsubscribes. Unsubscribes to me are, I mean, they can be disheartening Seeing stats and seeing in your own kit, it shows you how your, your ups and downs.

but take an unsubscribe as, as a win, because one, it’s gonna save you money in the long run because Kit does charge by how many subscribers you have. But two, they weren’t your, they weren’t your people. And it’s okay to get a, to get an unsubscribe if they, if they didn’t find your [00:53:00] content valuable. I’d rather have them unsubscribe than sitting on my email, not opening them.

Again, we’re worried about deliverability, we’re worried about overall list health. So if they’re not opening, they’re not engaging, it’s better that they unsubscribe.

Jeff Sieh: Those are great, great responses and, and good things to remember. ’cause it, it does freak you out when you lose subscribers. ’cause you work so hard to kid ’em. Like when you have a small list, you’re like, oh, I lost 10. Oh my gosh, they hate me. Not true. They’re just not your people. Nothing to see here. Move on.

Right? So, uh, that’s, that’s a really good mindset to keep in mind when you’re, when you’re starting to grow your list. Uh, Paul, this has been amazing. Once again, we could go on and on for this, but I would love for you to tell people where they can find out more about you. powwows.com, your trainings, especially about email.

So the floor is now yours.

Paul Gowder: Thank you so much. And

Jeff Sieh: Oh, there it is. Go. Yeah.

Paul Gowder: Yeah, I do have a course on building your first welcome sequence. I’d, I’d love for you to take a look at it. Rich out there. Thank you for, [00:54:00] for doing that. And we got a 25% off coupon, so that’s one place you can, you can find out more about me, but if you have questions, please reach outPaul@powwows.com.

I’d love to talk with you. we’re, Jeff and I are heading up to Craft and Commerce. Next week we’ll be at CEX. If you, you know, if you do run into me at a conference, please stop and ask me. I’d love to sit down and talk email with you, um, or just shoot me an email. I, I love helping people. I love seeing light bulb moments, especially with email, so please reach out and if you are interested, I always have to give this pitch.

If you’re interested in powwows and you want to go to one, they are open to the public. and. Encourage, everybody should go to one. At least it is a full cultural immersion into native culture with dancing, singing, food crafts. Just head over to powwows.com/powwow 1 0 1 and I’ll send you that, that, that sequence of emails to tell you what powwows are and how to find one near you.

Jeff Sieh: Awesome. Connor Brown. Where can people find out about the unsinkable? Connor Brown?

Conor Brown: You can find out more about [00:55:00] me@vacationkingdoms.com, at Vacation Kingdoms across the social medias, and my new place on Instagram at theme park, happy hour, where I’ll be posting, uh, eventually videos of Jeff Sieh, drunk at Disney, amongst other things, including the best places to find drinks in the Orlando theme parks.

It’s always awesome having Paul on the show. I’ve learned so much from him over the years. I’m so grateful to know him, and I hope everyone here learned a lot from him as well.

Jeff Sieh: Yeah, and don’t forget to sign up to everybody’s email list, Paul’s for sure. Uh and Connor’s has one as well at Vacation Stadiums, and there’s a wasp on my, in my office. That’s great. but you can find out and sign up to my newsletter by going to jeff c.com/news. Uh, Tuesdays and Fridays is usually when we send out emails, so, uh, then hopefully they’re value packed.

I think they are, uh, people really seem to enjoy them. Jeff c.com/news. And don’t forget about our amazing friends over at Ecamm. You can find out more about them at Ecamm dot com slash Jeff. And with that, everybody, thank you, rich. Thank you. grit and Growth, which is [00:56:00] pa which is Ralph. I couldn’t think of your name.

Ralph and Gary, thank you guys so much for stopping by. We’ll see you guys next week. Bye everybody.