Calling all Facebook Advertisers! You don’t want to miss this week’s Social Media News Live. Tara Zirker joins us to chat about a new Facebook tool that automatically optimizes your Facebook Ads for each user and shares her pro tips for creating ad copy that compels people to move on that CTA! 


Jeff Sieh: [00:00:00] Hello folks. Welcome to social media news live I’m Jeff Sieh and you’re not/ 

[00:00:05] Grace Duffy: [00:00:05] I’m Grace Duffy And this is the show that keeps you up to date on the world of social media. We are so excited today to bring the show to you by the power of restream, who is as sponsor for our show with restream, you can go live to Facebook, YouTube, LinkedIn, and Amazon live, which is what we’re doing to day.

[00:00:27] And you can check out more about that at 

[00:00:34] Jeff Sieh: [00:00:34] today we are joined by Tara Zirker and we’re going to be talking and chatting about a new Facebook tool that automatically optimizes your Facebook, the ads for each person. And we’re going to explore a new thing called bulletin, which is Facebook’s brand new newsletter platform for writers and Tara’s pro tips and advice for creating ad copy that compels people to move on that call to action. So we also want to give a shout out to our friends over at Ecamm they are the what’s making this show possible. It’s you can find out more about them at If you’d like to build a live show like this one, make sure you go there at

[00:01:18] So if you don’t know who Tara Zirker is, you really should because she is one of the smartest people that I know about all this Facebook ad stuff. And she is the founder and CEO at Successful Ads Club and online membership teaching business. She’s I mean, she’s teaching businesses owners, how to master ads and lead generation.

[00:01:38] She has taught thousands of business owners to rapidly scale through the power of Facebook and Instagram ads. Tara, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here. 

[00:01:49] Tara Zirker: [00:01:49] Thank you so much. It’s so good to be here with you too. And everybody who’s here live. 

[00:01:55] Jeff Sieh: [00:01:55] Yes. Yes, it’s very, cool. Grace, let’s jump right into this first topic because this is, I mean, you were even excited about this because you thought it was such a cool.

[00:02:06] Grace Duffy: [00:02:06] It’s a little spooky too. I kind of, I can’t wait to dig into this. Right? Right. So the headline is, that Facebook added this new optimized texts per person option for its automated ad creation process. Right? So last week we learned that Facebook rolled out this new option. Again, it’s called optimized texts per person.

[00:02:27] Remember that because it allows advertisers to choose the primary caption that headline and the description for your ads. And then Facebook will show one of these options based on what Facebook system recommends that the particular viewer looking at your ad at that moment will best respond to. So this tool has to be activated in your ad, set a process.

[00:02:53] It’s an opt-in. So for example, if you wrote an ad that said winter sale, outdoor gear, Tons of discounts and outdoor gear, then the system would choose which one of those to show. So for someone, winter sale might be the thing for them and for someone else you know, that those great discounts will be the thing for them.

[00:03:12] And that’s what Facebook will choose to show in that ad based on who is looking at it. So reports say that this option is available to selected users for right now, but it is setting up to make it available to more regions over the next few days. Of course, this was reported last week. So it’s probably in the process of rolling out.


Facebook Adds New Optimize Text Per Person Option

Now, Tara, have you had a chance to check this out or if you have what, do you think of it? 

[00:03:39] Tara Zirker: [00:03:39] I wish that I had it on my accounts, but I don’t see it yet. However it’s, going to be very cool. Right. So think of it. If anybody listening in has experienced with like creative dynamic, where Facebook chooses based on somebody’s history, Chooses the, you know, the ad copy the image.

[00:04:02] It kind of creates the right combination, that individual individualized, personalized combination for them. It’ll kind of be similar for this new feature. That’s, rolling out and in the process of rolling out. So in other words you’ll, still build your ad the way that you normally do it.

[00:04:20] You’ll put copy in the copy. The body text and headline headlines in the headlines, but then Facebook is going to take all of that copy and they’re going to do a little mixing and matching, and they’re going to say, well, maybe, you know, that first line of copy actually works better as a headline.

[00:04:36] So they’re going to play with it and see for that individual user what’s going to perform best based on their previous. Historical data. So I love it. When Facebook rolls out stuff like this, that’s customized to each person because you will see, it really does perform much better. So for example, whenever you put a video in your ads, there’s a little toggle switch when you click edit video.

[00:05:04] I believe that it defaults to this now, but there’s a little toggle switch where yes, you could choose your thumbnail, right? You could make it super cute and fun and, pick just the right piece of the video or upload your own thumbnail if you wanted to do that. But actually Facebook will do it for you and they’ll choose which thumbnail they’ll select several different thumbnails from your video.

[00:05:29] And then they’ll choose which one they believe will perform best for each individual user. So whenever you see things like that, where they’re rolling out features that they’re going to customize to every single person. You should default to those at least test them and see, because oftentimes Facebook unfortunately, has so much data on us.

[00:05:51] And they, see our patterns and they can customize these ads and, you know, our entire newsfeed experience to really suit what they know that we like as an individual. In fact, they probably know us better than we know ourselves. Right. So that’s, again, that’s the pros and cons of these big platforms that as an advertiser, it certainly makes things much easier for you.

[00:06:16] So that’s the takeaway. 

[00:06:18] Jeff Sieh: [00:06:18] Gotcha. So I want to do give a shout out to one of our supporters and friends. Sabrina says, wow, this sounds very cool. And yeah, so I want to just kind of, I want to clarify this because, you know, once again, this is similar to that, you know, what you were talking about. Facebook’s multiple text variation for ad copy, which was added back in 2019.

[00:06:39] And this variation of this add text and a single campaign, you know, with the Facebook choosing what version to display based on those users, based on their usage behaviors. And like grace said it’s, a little scary and this new version is similar, but it kind of lessens the, issue that advertisers have to create wholly different copy variants, you know?

[00:06:59] And so when, is this something that you use a lot when you’re building out things for your clients and like, you know, you know you’re in you run successful ag club. Is this something you tell your students to use and use. 

[00:07:15] on 2021-07-02 at 10.00.20: [00:07:15] Yeah.

Testing What Works For Facebook Ads

[00:07:15] Tara Zirker: [00:07:15] Okay. So when it comes to these features, what I have found to be true is usually you still want to go through a testing protocol.

[00:07:24] I teach a manual testing protocol, even though Facebook has the AB function like AB testing functions and all of that. Typically for your average budget, I find those to be wildly in effective. So not effective at all. When you do your testing, especially if you’re, you know, if you’ve got a budget of couple of thousand a month, even up to a few thousand a month, you’re still going to get more bang for your buck.

[00:07:50] More helpful data by doing a manual testing protocol. So you’re manually going to test copy imagery, headlines, basically. You’re just launching, you know you’re just launching at the same time into the algorithm, you know, three copy tests and three to five image tests and you know, three to five headline tests.

[00:08:11] And then you’re going to put those together in a way that really is the most effective for your particular audience. And so taking an you can do any sort of testing system that you want as long as you’re testing and it’s methodical. And I feel like, you know, it would be incomplete if you weren’t testing at least copy image and headline.

[00:08:31] However, you could be testing more things. In addition to that, such as the call to action button by the way, the learn more and sign up buttons are typically the best ones. If you’re e-comm shop now, but those are typically going to be your top performers. So you’re going to want to take this through a methodical testing process.

[00:08:54] And then, and only then do you start using these features that will customize things to each person? For example, dynamic creative is an amazing feature that Facebook has, but if you used it for testing, you would be very disappointed with your results very quickly. It really, actually performs incredibly well when you take your top winners and you pop them into, that feature, when you pop it into that dynamic created, that’s where Facebook can really take off for you, because think about this, right?

[00:09:28] If you know that let’s say, you know, for every like few tests that you do, you maybe get one winner, most of your things are going to be losers as much as you think, you know, your audience, most of what you test is going to be. If they’re going to be losers it’s just how it goes. And you know, if you’re popping that into these amazing features that Facebook has, and now they’re just sending out losing copy and losing imagery and losing headlines, it’s still going to be a loser, right.

[00:09:58] But no matter how they customize that to the person, but when you take these amazing features that they have, and you give them really good ad copy, that has 10, that has worked well in the past, you give them really good headlines to play with. You, give them really good imagery that you know, that your audience loves.

[00:10:16] And not just because you’re guessing like, oh, my audience will love this. No, because they’ve actually clicked on they’ve actually purchased from those images. Then Facebook can take those winning elements that you have, and they can actually just, I mean, take it 10 times farther than you could do yourself.

[00:10:33] So that’s when it becomes really cool, but I don’t recommend doing that. Any sort of messaging testing with those features, typically you’re going to have a really disappointing experience. And then you might think this doesn’t work or ads don’t work. And those two are definitely not the case. It’s just, you’re giving Facebook losing elements and they can’t win with that for you.

[00:10:55] So you’ve got to give them winners. 

[00:10:57] Jeff Sieh: [00:10:57] Gotcha. So what I would think of like, okay, you still have to bake the cake. Once you bake the cake, this is the icing that you put on the top, like to take it. 

[00:11:08] Tara Zirker: [00:11:08] That’s so good. I love that. You can use 

[00:11:10] Jeff Sieh: [00:11:10] it anytime you want use it. It’s really free. So great. She had a, you had a question as well, 

[00:11:19] Grace Duffy: [00:11:19] both of these tools and all of these options that you’re telling us about are very attractive because it’s, something extra to help you create your ads, but in your process, as you’re doing this, you’re talking about testing different images and finding what really works, what already resonates and not you.

[00:11:36] The loser content, right? It’s like how much time do these tools and utilizing tools actually save you and your own ad creation process and how many variations do you have to test before it starts getting really complex to track?

How Many Variations Should You Test for Facebook Ads?

[00:11:52] Tara Zirker: [00:11:52] Oh, it’s well, okay. So it can be, and if you have a huge budget and I personally have managed individual budgets up to quarter million a month, so that’s kind of been where my you know, like the top.

[00:12:07] For me have been, that is by the way, it’s still not a huge budget in Facebook land, right? There’s many, agencies that deal with multi seven figure spends per client each month. It’s a good budget. It’s definitely not the biggest budget. When you start getting into bigger and bigger budgets, you definitely have more sophisticated tracking platforms, backend software to help you, you know, double check your numbers and, see things across various you know, like different attribution sort of views.

[00:12:39] For example, if somebody you know, maybe they found your ad on their mobile phone. Commonly the case, like 80% of all Facebook is accessed through mobile only at this point. So 80% of people never see Facebook from their desktops and as business owners, that’s really important for us to remember because often we’re the ones accessing Facebook only from our desktops, or most often from our desktops.

[00:13:06] We have to remember our customers and clients are rarely accessing Facebook from their desktop. So when you think about, you know how can I make ads that are super effective? You need to be thinking about how does this look on a mobile device? Is it easy to read? Is it very digestible? Will it stop the scroll a lot quicker thinking, you know, keeping in mind that we scroll through mobile much faster than desktop.

[00:13:31] So all of that is really important, especially as you think about what will convert and what does test well But when it comes to saving time, w until you get into those really high budgets, I would say, once you start getting above 10, 15, 20,000 a month, yes. It’s going to get a lot more, you know, your tracking’s going to become more sophisticated.

[00:13:55] Doesn’t have to, but most likely it will just cause you’re going to want to start answering different questions and your just your ads dashboard is not always going to help you answer those questions. And so that’s where you’re going to start thinking through things a little bit differently, but when you’re under that kind of spend, you know, if you set up around a testing and you’re doing copy testing, imagery, testing, headline testing, I always tell people plan on spending about 500 to a thousand dollars through that.

[00:14:24] You’re going to be getting amazing conversions all along the way. You’re just making your conversions become less and less expensive. Right? So if your budget. 500 bucks for the month. Okay. Then the first month you’re going to go through a round of testing and the next month you’re going to work on scaling, right?

[00:14:40] So you’re going to find your best ads. And then you’re going to take those to more and more audiences typically takes anywhere between seven and 14 days to do your testing. 500 to a thousand dollars, gets the job done sometimes even a little bit less. And now you have a really good ad that you can play with on Facebook and be very, effective with, to bring in customers and clients.

[00:15:03] So when you’re in those what I would consider smaller budgets, it’s not a huge burden. You’re saving so much money that you’ll see right away that it’s easy to track. It’s easy to test. It’s easy to scale when you get into those higher spends yes. More complicated tracking. You know, you’re thinking about scaling a little bit differently.

[00:15:30] You know, I would say you can scale horizontally or vertically and you’re going to figure out like, what works best for your account. So there’s all sorts of things to consider once you start spending more. And hopefully you do, because if you’re spending more, that means that you are making more revenue, right.

[00:15:47] And ideally more profit. So bigger spends bigger revenues is kind of the goal. 

[00:15:54] Jeff Sieh: [00:15:54] Gotcha. So I have a follow-up question about this. So we’ve been talking about this in this first section, this new they’re adding this new optimized text per person option where that it’s kind of like denying dynamic ads where they take it and they can chop up the text and move the headline around and all that kind of stuff.

[00:16:09] That’s really, cool. Later on in the process. So do you know if this works for like video ads? I mean, I don’t know what your thoughts are on video ads, but when you were talking about like most of Facebook users are coming through mobile, I know that video is playing a big part on every platform and stopping the scroll with video is one of the things that a lot of marketers try to do it.

[00:16:31] Do you know if this is going to be added to, will this work for video view ads or video ads, or is that a whole nother animal? I 

[00:16:38] Tara Zirker: [00:16:38] don’t know. I wish I knew. I don’t know the answer to that, but I’m hopeful. I’m hopeful that it will work across all of the objectives. Because if it’s effective, I think it’s going to be extremely effective.

[00:16:53] I can’t imagine why it wouldn’t be effective, so I’m sure they’ll roll it out across all of the objectives ultimately. And that would be. 


If You Had $500, What Type of Ads Would You Run On Facebook?

Jeff Sieh: [00:17:03] What is your favorite objective? Like do you like using video ads? Cause I mean, that’s one of my favorites just because I am a video person, but I just want to know like, what if, like if you said, okay, I’ve got 500 bucks, what type of ads should I do?

[00:17:17] What do you usually say to them? 

[00:17:19] Tara Zirker: [00:17:19] I would say, you’re going to do 10% of your budget. 10 to 20% of your budget kind of depends on your offer and your goal and all that stuff. But 10 to 20% of your budget on video view ads or reach ads or something where you’re building up a warm audience, very inexpensively that you can continuously retarget.

[00:17:40] Okay. So that’s going to make your lead costs much more expensive very quickly and also over time. So that’s thing, number one, then I would take the majority of your budget. So let’s say if you spent 10% on warming up an audience, I would take about 80% of that budget. And I’m going to put that on conversion ads.

[00:18:01] So most of your budget should go to conversion ads. So 70 to 80% of that budget, the remaining portion of your budget, depending on how you kind of break it up is going to be towards your retargeting. So conversion ads is where you’re capturing leads sales. So you’re capturing phone numbers or emails or actual credit card transactions.

[00:18:23] And then retargeting is to kind of catch the rest of the people who saw your ad and may have been interested. Perhaps they clicked over to the page or they just thought, okay, I don’t know if you guys ever do this, but I think, oh, that’s cool. Let me see if it comes across my news feed again. Because I don’t have time right now, or sometimes if I’m really intrigued, I’ll click over to the landing page. and, keep it there on my browser on my phone and hope that I get back to it. but really, probably look for retargeting in my newsfeed, because if a company is really good, they’ve got warm-up ads, they’ve got conversion ads and they’ve got retargeting.

[00:19:01] That’s kind of your trifecta. You’re three in one punch that really gets the job done for lowering your ad costs and getting those conversions that you’re looking for. so what did I not say? Website traffic? That’s the biggest one that people come to us having done website traffic and saying I’m not getting any results.

[00:19:21] And I’m telling you that website, traffic. is Wildly ineffective for most of your conversion goals. If you’re looking for emails, you’re looking for phone numbers, you’re looking for credit card transactions and you’re doing website traffic, very unlikely that’s going to be effective. It can be effective if you are also pairing it with conversion ads, but without conversion ads hate to say it.

[00:19:45] But 90% of advertisers are just wasting money. And then saying, Facebook doesn’t work for me. And it’s just one click of a button and it would be working for you. And I have so many examples to illustrate that, but I’ll leave it there because I think I think that probably you know, That probably educates people enough, but if anyone has any follow-up questions, let me know because that’s a whole, that’s a whole issue.

[00:20:10] Jeff Sieh: [00:20:10] See what I did there. Grace, I got like a little masterclass on Facebook ads. Just, by asking you one question. So that’s the mic drop moment. That’s a great thing. That’s going to be it a clip later on, because that was great, Tara, thank you for that. And I’m glad we got that before we move on to our next segment, which is I wanted to, and you kind of did this already, but because tech crunch recently had this article about the seven ad types that increase click through rates and you know, of course, you know, Grayson’s released things and it’s gated and I don’t want to have to pay for it.

[00:20:41] So I’m like, well, Tara’s going to be on, I’ll just ask her. And I think you kind of did that right there. What you would, you kind of mentioned, you know, the best ones, but is there anything else other than you mentioned that a lot of advertisers waste money on website traffic and it’s, so to you is it all about the, ads.

[00:21:01] You can use for retargeting. Is that the biggest thing, the biggest bang for the buck that you would say

What’s the Biggest Bang For Your Buck for Facebook Ads?

[00:21:06] Tara Zirker: [00:21:06] the biggest bang for the buck is that type of ad called conversion ads. And let me explain why. Okay. So it used to be that you could boost a post and really grow your business. Do you guys remember those days?

[00:21:18] I have so many members who, you know, I have a, ringing graver, for example, who used to be able to boost a post and literally feel his business from a few hundred dollars in ad spend on boosted posts each year. I mean, he would have orders out the wazoo from that. And he came to us simply because that didn’t work anymore.

[00:21:40] Now, why wouldn’t that work anymore? If it used to work? Well, Facebook has our behavior. So mapped out at this point. I mean, grace, they know what time you’re going to wake up tomorrow and log onto Facebook and Instagram. And about how many posts you’re going to look at, how many ads you’ll view, how many ads you might click on, they planned out your usage.

[00:22:00] Already isn’t that wild. That’s crazy. So when you think about that, Facebook has become very, smart and knowing, you know, okay, well, grace, usually she gives her email. So we’re going to send her a bunch of ads that are asking for emails and Jeff. Well, he usually gets his credit card. So we’re going to send him a bunch of ads where, you know, people are pitching basically like e-comm right, where they’re actually pitching products from the ads or, oh, well, Tara, you know, she doesn’t give her email to opt in, by the way, I get my email way too often.

[00:22:36] But she doesn’t give her email too often, so we’re going to save her for website traffic. So she’s going to get ads that, you know, normally she’ll click off of Facebook. Read the article, but she doesn’t very often give her email or her credit card. So she’s going to get all this website, traffic, you know these website, traffic ads, but she’s not going to get anything that’s really asking for a credit card transaction.

[00:23:00] So think of how they have our behavior kind of categorized, right. Or let’s say, you know, or, you know, Candice well can is always she stays on Facebook. Doesn’t matter what kind of ad we send her. She’ll like, it she’ll comment on it, but she never leaves Facebook. She never clicks over to anything. So she’s going to get.

[00:23:22] Boosted post ads. All right. So now that you know, this is why these things are so effective. So Jeff, they are saving, you know, they’re saving your newsfeed for ads that are looking for purchase conversions. Grace, they’re saving your newsfeed for ads that are looking for emails and Tara, you know, me, they’re saving my newsfeed for ads that are looking for people who will click off of Facebook, but never convert and Candice, well, they’re going to save her newsfeed for boosted posts so she can comment in life on those posts, all she wants, but she’s never gonna, she’s never gonna give her email or click off of Facebook.

[00:23:58] So now that you understand that, now you can start to see okay. So this is why I need to do conversion ads and conversion ads that are looking for purchases. Right? So for me, it’s all about conversion ads. I don’t actually mind what my cost per or my click-through rate is as much, unless I’m looking for podcast downloads or blog, you know, then, okay.

[00:24:23] Yes. I’m going to look at click through rate all day and all night, but I’m mostly looking at cost per conversion. Now I do use click-through rate as a benchmark and a metric. That’s very, important. So if click-through rate is under 1% instantly, I know that I am leaving money on the table instantly and click through rate on.

[00:24:46] So there’s always three metrics that I look at very, closely. So the first is cost per result. The second is click through rate. The third is CPM or cost per thousand impressions. And then bonus fourth metric would be your landing page conversion rate. So if I see click through rate is under 1%, I can look at anyone’s ads account and instantly tell them what’s wrong with their ads, because I know these metrics inside and out, click through rate under 1%.

[00:25:15] Oh, and I should say click through rate on the link. So not CTR all, but CTR link. Then I instantly can see, oh, your messaging is not resonating and you need to go through a messaging around a messaging testing because these ads are way more expensive than they need to be. Click through rate under 1%.

[00:25:34] I’d love to see it pushing towards 2%, but between one and 2% can be a hundred tests. So that’s not an easy feat, but if it’s under 1%, you’re leaving money on the table. If your CPM is over $42, you’re leaving money on the table. If you’ve got a a landing page, that’s converting under 30% for an email or a phone number capture, you’re leaving money on the table.

[00:25:59] If you have an e-com sales page, that’s converting under 3%, you’re probably leaving money on the table. It depends on exactly what you’re selling, but those are kind of some benchmarks to help you quickly look at your ads, account and triage. What is wrong or how can you improve? 

[00:26:18] Jeff Sieh: [00:26:18] That’s so great. So I hope you’re taking notes.

[00:26:20] I hope you’re taking notes because I’m going to have to borrow your notes afterwards, just like in school. But I wouldn’t to bring up this comments because Sabrina says, I wish Facebook would deliver my groceries because they know me so very, well. Oh my gosh. Yes. Right. And on this, those were, those are great things.

[00:26:39] And I think that is amazing what we need to look for first. But one of the questions when you were talking that was coming to mind, it’s like we’ve covered for a long time. You know, all this stuff between Facebook and apple, about the ads kind of being, not being tracked anymore. And I wanted to ask you, you know, like what trends are you seeing?

[00:26:56] Is this going to affect, like the stuff you’re doing for your clients? Is there things that we need to start if we haven’t already moving towards, because they’re not being able to track, especially we talked about mobile and how important that is. And that’s what apple is, blocking right now. What are your thoughts and suggestions on that?

How The New Apple Restrictions Affects Facebook Ads

[00:27:15] Tara Zirker: [00:27:15] Yes. Okay. So it’s a big deal. It’s a bigger deal than most people are letting on it’s definitely changing the game. All right. So what do we need to know about this? Basically? I think I might be slightly off on this number, but it’s something like 15, 15% of worldwide mobile. Traffic is. Is iOS.

[00:27:44] Okay. 15 1 5, but in the U S and a lot of Western countries is 50%. Five-zero right. So this is why it is really affecting so many advertisers. Essentially. We all know the deal, especially if you’ve been listening to the show you know, Facebook or apple is basically saying, if you want to be able to track, you need to, like, people have to individually opt into being tracked.

[00:28:11] Okay. Very, few people are doing that, but you know, majority are saying no, that’s creepy to not track me. And so what’s it going to do? It’s going to change the game for retargeting. Absolutely. It’s going to shrink some of your custom audiences, essentially. It creates like a cloak over your account.

[00:28:28] So even though those conversions are still happening on the backend, Facebook can’t report it on the dash. All right. They can’t see and report those conversions that normally they’d be able to get, you know, report just fine. They can no longer do that. So yes, on some accounts it’s creating. Dramatic difference and challenge because you’re kind of flying blind.

[00:28:53] You’re trying to have to figure out, you know, was it this ad set or that ad set that’s actually doing okay or that’s actually creating you know, purchases, especially if those purchases come in you know, let’s say a couple of weeks down the road or anything like that. So there’s additional things to where, you know, now the attribution window is shorter, so you can only see a shorter view on your data.

[00:29:16] And in addition, there’s report delays. So basically your data’s not real-time anymore. It could be up to three days of you know, reporting delays. So, people are shutting off things that, you know, three days, a few days later they’re like, well, actually that looked fine. What happened? It’s because all of this.

[00:29:36] All of these changes are taking place. So it’s a big deal. We all know that you guys have covered this so many times. But I believe that Facebook’s going to, you know, especially as we get to first party tracking, instead of third party tracking and all these platforms will come out with their own solutions, we’re going to see that things kind of normalize and stabilize again.

[00:29:57] Eventually it will probably look very, different. I imagine advertising two years from now, it’s going to be actually marketing in general. Cause remember this isn’t just ads. It’s also email apple just changed the game for email too. So marketing is probably, you know, we’re on the it’s the Dawn of a really a new day when it comes to marketing and how things will be done.

[00:30:21] But you just have to remember. The, basic principles of marketing and pretty much always been the same, the techniques you know, the technicalities and the tracking and being able to see your data. That’s going to be very different moving forward, but you just rely on, you know, tried and true and classic marketing techniques.

[00:30:42] And that probably will never fail you no matter what things change or what things come on, board, new platforms, new features, new tools all, everything. There’s so much new, but the principles are always the same. So hopefully that helps. But yes it’s, going to be a very different world in two years from now with the data and what we’re able to see and how we’re able to see it.

[00:31:08] Absolutely. 

[00:31:10] Grace Duffy: [00:31:10] Well, you’ve piqued my interest. Okay. Because now I want to hear what are your predictions for the marketing space over the next two years? I mean, you know, I’ve always said no matter what marketing principles have stayed the same, so I am totally in agreement with you, but what are some of the things that we should be.

[00:31:26] Ready to jump on because I, for one always think about like, oh, I wish I’d done that. Or I wish I dumped that. Well, it doesn’t help now. Right. So help us get ahead of the game.

Predictions on the Future of Facebook Ads

[00:31:36] Tara Zirker: [00:31:36] Okay. Here’s, my short-term prediction because all of you know, Facebook is funded by advertisers. There’s no secret to that.

[00:31:45] They need to keep us happy as much as they, you know, introducing small frustrations can actually spike their revenue. You know, you think about these changes they make and how much advertisers spend trying to figure out these changes by doing all these experiments. Right? Sometimes Facebook makes these changes and they’re very quiet about them, but we noticed that things are, you know, something’s not working the way it did.

[00:32:08] And what do we do as advertisers where we spend more money. Facebook. You’ll, I don’t know the conspiracy theory, but sometimes I wonder, do they make all these changes? Do you know, and you can see it, you can see it in their earnings reports. Like you can see that, you know, algorithms change quietly behind the scenes and there’s a huge spike in revenue.

[00:32:31] And you know there’s, something there, but in this particular situation, they are frantically trying to make sure that their advertisers have new tools and features and can remain happy. Why? Well, because people are taking their, budgets off of Facebook. They’re saying, well, enough of this, I’m going to diversify to Google and YouTube and Pinterest and Tik TOK.

[00:32:57] Pretty much probably. Oh, and LinkedIn. So let’s say. In order. I see that people are fleeing Facebook and going to YouTube and Google, LinkedIn, Pinterest, and tech talk. This is, and then Snapchat after that, this is where people are taking those budgets and they’re diversifying in those ways. And so Facebook knows they’re hustling.

[00:33:18] It wouldn’t surprise me if over the next six months, just to kind of make things good for their small business owners. It would not surprise me if we see the algorithms really loosen up. So maybe your posts on your Facebook pages start getting more reach. Maybe your Instagram starts getting a little more reach.

[00:33:36] I would not be surprised and obviously with good content, right? They’re never going to reward. Any plot, you know, any business any profile that has content that is not engaging, but where they see engagement happening, I believe that those algorithms are going to loosen up. So they start getting more reach.

[00:33:54] So maybe your your, Facebook lives, your IGT or your IgE Instagram lives, your, you know, that sort of thing. I bet they start getting more reach over the next few months. So I think that’s kind of a short-term prediction. I see that this first party tracking, you know, that the API tools that they have, those are going to get started getting a lot more plate as people change their tracking methodologies from third person to first person.

[00:34:20] So basically that data is coming to your server. It’s, you’re the one that’s kind of capturing your data. And then we’ll see probably a huge pro proliferation of, you know, new tools and softwares. Small business owners to be able to use their own data more effectively and, you know, see what see what kind of data is coming through and how they can help how that can help them make more sales.

[00:34:46] So all of that will definitely start happening when it comes to email marketing. I mean, that’s the next thing that’s getting disrupted very quickly. You know, people are going to start having to attract different methods, different metrics, and that’s across the board. So maybe you’re not going to be able to see your open rates as accurately as you normally do.

[00:35:09] So you’re going to start tracking well, how long does somebody stay on my list? How long does it take them to purchase? Once they’re on my list, there’s all these new ways or new things that we’re going to have to look at. We’ve been so spoiled by all of this data for these so many years. You know I, remember when Facebook advertising was just brand new, it was just a baby and know.

[00:35:33] And really, I mean, until very recent years, remember, Facebook’s been pulling back data for a few years now just because there’s been so many privacy, you know, concerns. And but when you compare, you know, what you can even see, let’s say before iOS 14 to two or three years ago, it was already starting to be, you know, pull back pretty dramatically.

[00:35:58] And now they’re just taking it forward to, you know, what’s going to become the next wave of, like of privacy basically. And and this follows, you know this, kind of is following GDPR. So people are thinking, oh, apple is just trying to, you know, mess us all up. But really it was GDPR that kind of led the way.

[00:36:20] And then Apple’s kind of, okay, so now apples pushing things forward a little bit, but really we’re just getting to a place where people own their own data. Which is honestly probably what should be happening anyway, and where people get permission because your data is, your data is your own. And, I think we’ve maybe given it away so freely or not really thought about it, but now we’re starting to see the different ways that people are using our data.

[00:36:47] And it can be honestly a little bit scary, you know? And so it is important that we are moving things forward in this way, but as marketers, it creates some difficulties for our job. We have to figure out different ways to do things. And then we’ll figure out new metrics that we track in order to see for being effective.

[00:37:05] Cause definitely the things we’ve been tracking in the past, aren’t going to work as well anymore. 

[00:37:11] Jeff Sieh: [00:37:11] Gotcha. Yeah. You know, you mentioned you know, Facebook’s gotta make people happy, but you know, what makes me happy is Ecamm. So see how I did that transition right there wasn’t that perfect? So if you can find out more at, they are what makes this show happen.

[00:37:27] And by the way, they are actually starting this brand new called leap Into Live. And it’s amazing. You’ll learn how to perfect your live video productions, how to build build and brand your content, how to crush your partnership, pitches, and monetize your videos. You can build and scale a close knit community.

[00:37:44] Like we have here with live video. And what’s really cool is you’ll learn how to master your audio mix and crush your podcasting goals. If that’s something you’re interested to do. And also how to remote produce live events for your clients, but you can find out all about that and sign up. It’s like open just recently.

[00:38:02] I’m going to be speaking there. You can find out more at That’s So I’d love to see you guys over there. 

[00:38:15] Grace Duffy: [00:38:15] I didn’t even know you’re speaking there. See, I’m surprised. I learned few things from the show every day every week.

[00:38:21] So Ecamm of course works flawlessly with our other sponsor Restream so it is the best and fastest way to distribute all of that content to Facebook, groups, Facebook pages, YouTube, LinkedIn. We are, where else are we going? Twitter? Amazon Live Everywhere. Yeah. And especially if you are trying to combine live video, audio and podcasting into your marketing strategy, which we do here, so you can find out more on how to create those fully branded experiences that go everywhere 


[00:39:01]Jeff Sieh: [00:39:01] And so we had just talked about some new ways that we may have to. Market and some new opportunities that are happening. And this may be one of them. So Facebook is launching this new newsletter platform called bulletin. And so this week, Facebook CEO and founder, mark Zuckerberg, he dropped some new product news in his the new live audio rooms.

[00:39:24] You know, his brands, clubhouse competitor, and he announced this new thing called bulletin. It’s a newsletter platform. It’s It’s a standalone site and it’s by Facebook, but it offers websites for writers to engage with grow and monetize their readers. And it’s going to leverage. To help increase the reach.

[00:39:42] So it’s a set of tools for writers to, publish and customize a standalone website for their content. So it’s got publishing tools, it’s got sustainable, hopefully business models. It’s got some discovery and distribution. It’s got some great community building features built in, and it’s currently launching in the United States with a select group of writers like Malcolm Gladwell, Mitch Albom, Aaron Andrews, tan, France, and more features and tools are supposed to be rolling out during the coming year.

[00:40:10] And the interesting thing is a hundred percent of subscription revenues go to the creators and Facebook is going to handle the portability of content and email lists. They’re going to be the ones who are collecting subscriptions analytics to help writers understand their audience. And it’s what caught my eye.

[00:40:26] It’s supposed to help you find articles, podcasts, even which podcasts we talked about last week rolled out on Facebook, a more diverse range of creators, and it’s going to cover topics and communities that hopefully you care about and stuff. And it’s also has this thing for exclusive content that you can unlock by having a subscription model for these publications, that’s going to use Facebook pay.

[00:40:47] So it’s really interesting how all these things are going, and they’re trying to keep the conversation going on Facebook with this live audio and all this stuff that’s going on for creators and subscribers. You know, the announcement, a Tara now noted that Bolton would also integrate with Facebook pages.

[00:41:05] So what do you think the opportunity is for business pages once this becomes available to more and more writers? 


Facebook Launces Bulletin

Tara Zirker: [00:41:13] Yeah, it will be so interesting. I imagine a huge you know, diversity of how people are using the this, tool, this feature and integrating into their pages. I mean, I could see a lot of businesses putting their blogs on this you know, podcast, promotion, all of that stuff.

[00:41:34] I was diving into it a little bit and. Pretty impressed with that. I mean, it looks beautiful. It’s easy to navigate super intuitive. I mean, it is Facebook, right. But they’re looking for what is Facebook looking for time on platform, right. So we know, I mean, I’ll just kind of tease out what I’m thinking in terms of, you know, what does Facebook want from small business owners?

[00:41:57] They want time on platforms. So we know that creating, you know, putting our best content on Facebook is going to reward us as business owners. Because if we see if Facebook sees engagement, if they see people interacting, spending minutes, reading our posts you know, spending hours, listening to our podcast or being in our audio rooms, then what are they going to do in the algorithm?

[00:42:21] We’re going to get a higher ranking. We’re going to get a, you know, a top spot in the newsfeed. So I don’t know, I’m excited to see all the diverse ways that people use this. But I would just think, you know, as a business owner or a marketer. Your strategy should be, how do I fulfill Facebook schools of, you know of keeping more time on platform?

[00:42:44] Well, that just means your most engaging content. So use your most engaging content. Don’t use those features for fluff or, you know, to do something, just to do it. You want to be really thinking like, how can I help Facebook with their goals? Because if you help them with that goal, then ultimately you’re going to be the top of the newsfeed.

[00:43:04] So it won’t be other things I’ll just say too, whenever Facebook rolls out a new feature or Instagram, we know that we should be jumping on it. So if it’s something that fits into your marketing strategy, if you’re already using social audio or you’re already using you’re already blogging. And now Facebook introduces this way for writers and authors to, you know, basically have their blogs on a Facebook platform.

[00:43:31] The more that you use that stuff that the more like Facebook’s gonna throw traffic at you, they’re gonna throw attention at you because they want these features to take off and really stabilize in their platforms, you know, cost them, you know, bazillions of dollars to develop this stuff. And so many hundreds of team members that the work on these things, they want to make it successful.

[00:43:53] You help them and they’ll help you. That’s kind of the big takeaway. 

[00:43:57] Jeff Sieh: [00:43:57] Very cool. Yeah. So I was really like I just got access to the podcast feature. It’s not populated, but it came through and I’m like, yes, because I know I’m going to have to really, you know, push it out there. But it’s, and the other interesting thing that on this press release is that they mentioned, you know, the first thing I look at when they say, you know cause going through Facebook, it’s like, who owns what at the end of the day?

[00:44:22] And they said that you will be able, if you want to go off platform is take the subscriber list with you. That’s a big deal that Facebook’s even saying that at the get go. And so that I think is going to open it up and have, it may be a lot more attractive to a lot of people if like, oh, I own the list.

[00:44:39] Okay. I can do this maybe. And so I thought that was really smart to Facebook, putting that out in the press release and grace, I know that you started, you know, doing this kind of stuff, writing when you first started your whole social career. So talk about that. Oh, 

[00:44:55] Grace Duffy: [00:44:55] yeah. Well, I mean, my whole career in social media marketing started with blogging by first launching a company blog for a company I used to work for and then launching a series of my own personal blogs.

[00:45:04] And that created a tremendous amount of community. I mean, there’s still people that I feel close to today that I’ve never met in person because I got to know them through their writing. But eventually that whole world was quickly eclipsed by social media, Facebook, first of all, Facebook and Twitter. And then over time that has progressed to more video and we’re seeing, you know, the progression of video content.

[00:45:26] And then now social audio was a big boom this last year. And this feels like we’re just kind of going backwards back to the blogging right there. Very basic writing, communicating that we create a community. Where do you think bulletin fits in this whole progression? Because over the last few weeks, we’ve talked about all the different things Facebook has been introducing.

[00:45:44] In fact, it’s quite a crowded space because I think if there’s video, there’s a video product, Facebook has it. There’s an audio product. Facebook has it now. Right. So where does bulletin fit into all that. 

[00:45:55] Tara Zirker: [00:45:55] Oh, that’s such a good, I mean, it’s a good conversation. I think that, you know, really what we’re seeing is a segmentation of how people like to digest things.

[00:46:05] Right? So when we, I mean, really think back to 10 years ago and blogging was kind of, we didn’t have zoom, we didn’t have slack, we didn’t have, you know, live video capabilities, at least that I know of. I don’t think 10 years ago, any of, you know, there wasn’t a live video and in fact, video is kind of hard to upload onto these platforms.

[00:46:27] It was, you know, really heavy. Our computers weren’t as fast. I mean, there was all these. Well, and we didn’t have our mobile device, you know, there’s all these different reasons why you know we didn’t have, we weren’t dependent on video. Like we are now, for example, but now I think that we’re just seeing, okay, well, we’ve all got these different ways that we like to learn process things, absorb things, you know we all have different ways that we even like to zone out, you know, and I think Facebook has, and the world has just developed tools.

[00:46:59] Everybody. Some people love audio. They love audio books. They love podcasts. Now they love social audio. Some people are just video people. I’m not a YouTube person myself. I don’t go to YouTube to, you know, find things. But I can’t tell you how many people in our community do. Like they go to YouTube first and I’m just not that way.

[00:47:20] I go to blogs and reviews first. That’s always my kind of search mechanisms. I go to Amazon to you know, to like do market research. I, think everybody just does things so differently. Some people love audio. Some people love videos. Some people love reading. Some people love reading short form. Some people love reading long form.

[00:47:40] Right. And so I think Facebook has just adapted to. You know, bringing this whole suite of tools and features as overwhelming as it is into their platform. And again, their goal is time on platforms, so they know if they can entertain more people in the ways that they like to learn and grow and, absorb things or watch things, then they’re just going to have more market share.

[00:48:05] And they’re just going to be a dominating force for that much longer, you know, all these platforms. It’s interesting, like Facebook is starting to get disrupted a little bit, especially because, you know definitely legislatively they’re not as able to absorb these platforms as they once were. So I think we will start to see more and more of a rise of a new suite of social media tools.

[00:48:32] You know, tic topping, example, clubhouse, Snapchat, still being, you know, their own thing. And I think that we’re gonna, we’re gonna see like a lot more diversification. The platforms that we turn to over the next few years. Do you guys think the same? Do you think we’ll continue to see? 

[00:48:49] Jeff Sieh: [00:48:49] Well I, think instead of I’m sorry, grace, but I was going to say before, I think that one of the things is because, you know, they can’t absorb companies that they want, they’re changing their companies, like even Instagram this week announced like, Hey, we’re no longer a square photo sharing thing.

[00:49:04] We want to be YouTube and Tik TOK. I mean, they said that their director of said it. So I think that they’re going to be switching just like you were saying, Tara, to something that they can be a piece of that for everybody. I’m sorry, grace. I interrupted you. Go ahead. 

[00:49:18] Grace Duffy: [00:49:18] Oh, so I’ve got a very snotty question to ask.

[00:49:23] I want to know what problem is bulletin solving, because I mean, you kind of alluded to this a few minutes ago, but what is the benefit of using bulletin over creating and distributing your own content over having, you know, on your own website, mailing lists and, you know, Like Jeff can talk about, you know, how we overcome the algorithm by using text messaging to, to reach our listeners and our viewers.

[00:49:49] Right. And it’s not that hard to create your own website anymore. Right. I know that, you know, you can get really technical into it, but I mean, it’s really not that hard. So tell us about what problem do you think this is solving and what is the benefit of this over using, doing your own thing, having your own website?

[00:50:07] Tara Zirker: [00:50:07] Well, as I was looking at who are the first people using bulletin, right. They’re big names, right? So what are the priorities for people who already have a pretty good following, more market share? So reaching people that maybe have heard of them, but never have really been interested enough to dive into their work, you know, drawing.

[00:50:27] So more market share is going to be one. And also what looks like a partnership with Facebook. So for them, it’s very elite and prestigious to say, and keep in mind, Facebook is actually paying they’ve actually they have contracts with these initial writers. There’s a monetary reason, but probably way more important.

[00:50:46] It’s it’s the collaboration like they’re partnered with Facebook at this point. And so when we and that in Facebook is using them to kind of draw the rest of us in eventually. Right. Think about when. When Facebook pages first came out and this is not my own thought, but honestly, I can’t remember who or where I read this to attribute it to the right person.

[00:51:16] So my apologies, if anybody knows, please pop it in the chat. But when Facebook pages first came out what did every single business owner do? They put it everywhere, right? Follow us on Facebook falls on Facebook. It was in commercials. It was on like packaging for products, right? I mean, you look at a box of Cheerios and it had follow us on Facebook.

[00:51:41] Everything. I mean, TV commercials, super cool commercials product packaging, I mean, everywhere. And we were using it in our marketing too. We were using it as part of our sales funnels. We were using it in emails. I mean, it was just every single place. And to some extent it still is right. Cause we still have the follow buttons on our website and all that stuff.

[00:52:03] What did Facebook realized? Well, that was just free advertising for them to get us on their platforms. And so they didn’t need to do very much advertising at all because literally. They had the entire business world doing the advertising for them. Right. So whenever they introduce a new thing and they can’t just introduce a new thing, they have to give it a ton of attention traffic.

[00:52:26] Right. Then what they see is this huge, I mean, massive insanely millions of business owners start promoting their products. So I’m imagining, they’re kind of hoping for the same thing with with bulletin, right? Hey, come check us out on bulletin. And we as mark the, exchange, there is Facebook saying you can tap into a whole new world of people that you’ve never marketed to before, and we’ll send them, we’ll send them to you.

[00:52:54] You’re going to have so many new, fresh eyes on your stuff organically. So we’ll see what happens with bulletin, maybe bulletin. I don’t know this for a fact. Just thinking it through bulletin could be the reinvigoration of people. Right. So this could be the feature that completely revitalizes pages and gets business owners excited about, using their pages again and putting their stuff on Facebook.

[00:53:18] Because how many business owners right now are excited about their Facebook pages? Right? Literally zero out of a hundred. I mean, nobody is. And if anybody’s putting content on their pages, it’s out of pure obligation, nobody’s expecting unless they have a huge following, but even then those people are just as disappointed, your red bulls and your, I mean, all the companies that actually get the best engagement numbers are hugely disappointed when they’re getting, you know, half a percent reach on their content.

[00:53:53] Right? So nobody’s happy with pages. Maybe this will be the thing that they’re introducing that they say, okay, this is our opportunity to make pages, that it thing again. But what is really good? We’re on Facebook right now. Facebook groups. And so what is every business owner doing? Join my Facebook group, join my Facebook group, join my Facebook group.

[00:54:13] So the more of us that they have talking about their features, the more we draw audience in for them. And we actually keep audience on platform for them. 

[00:54:23] Jeff Sieh: [00:54:23] That’s a great point. So that’d be great. I sure hope that. I sure hope you’re true about that. So that’s yeah. Well that will be true. Grace, I know you wanted to talk about this real quick before we wrap things up.

[00:54:33] So talk about this good ideas festival. This sounds all for good ideas.

Facebook’s Good Ideas Festival

[00:54:38] Grace Duffy: [00:54:38] Well, as Facebook knows because they know everything as we’ve established today, is that a majority of their advertisers. So people that are still excited about those Facebook pages, those hundred people, we were talking about tend to be small businesses, right?

[00:54:51] Small businesses do a lot of their advertising. A lot of their marketing using Facebook is still very effective groups, pages, whatever. Right? So Facebook is hosting a seven week virtual experience, a webinar classes called the Facebook good ideas festival. So you can search that up Facebook, good ideas festival, and it’s offering free training and marketing services on how to best use the platform for, supporting your small business.

[00:55:18] And so the purpose of this was that a lot of businesses experience a lot of negative effects due to the pandemic this past year. And, you know, it evolved, it changed a lot of things. Like it’s definitely, how consumers. Yeah, consumers wanted to shop shifts in, in their desires for privacy as we covered.

[00:55:39] And then of course the increase in mobile usage. And the rise of that creator economy, you have more people that may not be working. We may not have been working this past year. And so they found other sources of revenue through being creators, whether it was sharing a hobby, sharing, an interest, launching a show like we did you know, so they want to create this resource.

[00:56:01] And so Tara, I want to know how your business evolved and adopted over this past year of incredible change. 

[00:56:09] Tara Zirker: [00:56:09] Oh, yes. Incredible change. Well, a lot of our business is serving small business owners. You know, across the board and we saw pivoting everywhere and our job was to help people, pivot offers, think of solutions.

[00:56:25] We were seeing so many different offers, different solutions across so many different industries that a lot of people turned to us and said, can you help me figure out how to pivot my offer? So it’s not that their products needed to pivot as much, you know, in some cases, yes, because they were definitely like purely offline, but in a lot of cases, it was just the offers on it.

[00:56:47] So for example, if you were a local business and you know, still allowed to. Perform your pro you know, perform your service or sell your product. Sometimes it was just like home delivery or, you know, something more than curbside pickup, but home delivery or you know, having the service performed on your porch.

[00:57:09] So sometimes it was just simple little tweaks like that, and it got the job done. And other times it was just a complete 180 on what they were, how they were packaging their products and services in order to make them you know, really appealing to an audience that was stuck inside or stuck in their neighborhoods and had limited places to go and limited things to do.

[00:57:34] That was crazy helping so many business owners through that. And definitely I think for, you know, what we kind of saw behind the scenes for all these businesses was some of them did really well and some of them. You know, shrink quite a bit and some of them had to restart or re-engage once it was all said and done.

[00:57:58] And I mean, there was just such a massive range. Our job kind of stayed the same, helping businesses figure out how to use advertising in order to grow their revenue. And the way we do it did, it was pretty much the same, but I would say that our strategies and our toolkit expanded tremendously and it really taught us how to think about, you know how do you, orient a business during crisis?

[00:58:24] Because that’s probably, you know, I hate to say it, this probably not the last time we’re going to see. Yeah, I don’t know, you know, something like that. I hate to say a pandemic, but you, know if you listen to the experts, they say these things will start happening, you know, instead of every hundred years, they’re going to start happening more frequently, hopefully not every decade, but certainly we need to prepare for the possibility of things like that happening again.

[00:58:50] Or you think about recessions or mini recessions. Okay. So how do you think about how to, how do you conduct business during any sort of crisis could be a natural disaster? It could be a financial disaster. It could be, you know, literally what we just went through a pandemic. How can you move your business forward?

[00:59:09] Or what would you do in those cases? Really great exercise. I’m sure for everybody, I don’t know if they feel that yet, but I’m sure in 10 years we’ll look back and say yeah, and that was. We got through it, it challenged us. We overcame, we grew or we pivoted, or we started fresh with something even better.

[00:59:32] You know, hopefully everyone will look back and say that was awful, but it was good in, in some 

[00:59:37] Jeff Sieh: [00:59:37] way. Right? Well, this is great. Cause we talked about you know, the section about Facebook, good ideas, a S summit or whatever they’re doing well, we’ve had plenty of good ideas from on this show from Tara.

[00:59:50] I don’t know, but I think, you know, I think, you know why I thought she, she’s amazing at this Facebook stuff. So Tara, before we go, where can people find out more about you we’ve been flashing up your on the screen, but for our podcast listeners where is the best place for us to, find out more about you and what you offer?

[01:00:07] Tara Zirker: [01:00:07] Absolutely. Thank you so much, Jeff. Yes. is our website. You can learn about our membership and join if it resonates. And of course, please come find me on Instagram. DM me, connect with me. My Instagram is Tara Zirker. 

[01:00:23] Jeff Sieh: [01:00:23] Awesome. And of course my amazing producer and co-host Grace Duffy, where can they find people find out more about you?

[01:00:31] Grace Duffy: [01:00:31] Well, we follow Tara’s advice and we too have a Facebook group for Restream you can find that on Facebook called Restream community. If you want to know more about how to up your live video game. And then we also have a YouTube channel where we have a whole series of shows, a whole bunch of shows on the topic of live streaming.

[01:00:49] So check us out there. 

[01:00:50] Jeff Sieh: [01:00:50] Yeah, don’t forget my friends over at Ecamm with their brand new spanking, a Leap Into Live bootcamp. That’s coming up. You want to go register for that right now, by going to That’s Our next show is at Friday, July 9th at 11:00 AM.

[01:01:08] Eastern 10:00 AM central. You can find us on Facebook, LinkedIn, YouTube, and Amazon live. If you would like to get reminders about the show, make sure you guys text us at 903 2 8 7 9 0 8 8. That’s 903 2 8 7 9 0 8 8. Thank you so much for our audience. All the great questions. Everybody who showed up live today, we appreciate you and we will see you next time.

[01:01:29] Bye. 

[01:01:30] Grace Duffy: [01:01:30] Thanks everyone.

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