This week, Mitch Jackson joins Jeff and Grace to explore the Metaverse. We’ll chat about his new book, The Metaverse Handbook, and get his insights into how it’s going to shape the future of business and culture as we know it. 

And, because he is a lawyer, we’re getting his advice on protecting yourself, your interest, and your brand in this new, immersive, boundless world. 

SHOW TRANSCRIPT

This transcript is automatically generated by Descript.  Any errors or omissions are unintentional.

[00:00:00] Jeff Sieh: Welcome to Social Media News Live. I’m Jeff Sieh and you’re not.

[00:00:03] Grace Duffy: And I’m Grace Duffy. And this is the show that brings you up to date on what’s happening in the world of social media and beyond. And today we’re talking about the

[00:00:13] Jeff Sieh: that’s right? And today Mitch Jackson, the metaverse lawyer joins us to discuss his new book, the metaverse handbook, and to give his insights into what is the metaverse that we’re talking about.

[00:00:23] So how can businesses prepare for it? We’ll get his thoughts on how the metaverse will shape the future of business and culture as we know it. And because he is a lawyer we’re going to get his advice on protecting yourself and your interests and your brand in this new immersive boundless world called the metaverse Mitch.

[00:00:42] How are you doing today?

[00:00:44] Mitch Jackson: I’m doing great, Jeff, it’s good to be her. Hi grace. This nice to meet you. And this is an exciting topic. We have a lot to talk about. Look, I want everyone to know. I’m usually, ready, dressed to kill in court. Just cut off my, I just got off my board down at Dana point, California, paddled around the island.

[00:00:59] Just made it back in time. So it’s good to be here. So excuse the casual attire.

[00:01:04] Jeff Sieh: We’re all wearing sweats down there. We’re still, we’re on. Yeah, you would just have to,

[00:01:10] Grace Duffy: it’s a Friday. It’s a fun Friday, right?

[00:01:13] Mitch Jackson: If that’s, if the salt, the, in the sand rubs off on everybody in real life I apologize ahead of time.

[00:01:19] Jeff Sieh: No problem.

[00:01:20] Grace Duffy: So need some sand and

[00:01:22] Jeff Sieh: some salt. That’s right. It’s what kind of drury here in Texas. But if you don’t know who Mitch Jackson is, you really should because he is an award-winning trial lawyer. He, and Joy’s applying his 35 years of practicing law to help and add value to consumers and clients who are doing the digital dance at the intersection of law, business and technology, including the metaverse and web three.

[00:01:45] He is the co-founder and CEO of maneuver VR, which has a fun name maneuver, and a metaverse a web three consulting agency. He’s author of the medevac verse handbook. We’re going to be talking about today. It’s about how to create market and sell in the virtual world and the ultimate guide to social media for business owners, professionals, and entrepreneurs.

[00:02:05] So this is amazing.

[00:02:09] Mitch Jackson: It’s good to be here. I’m excited to not be in court this morning. I’m excited to be on this live video show, an audio show with you, and hopefully we can help people give themselves permission to dip their toe in the digital sandbox. That’s called the metaverse and start exploring all of the interesting, amazing and exciting opportunities.

[00:02:28] I think that are ahead for all of us. So I’m glad that. Absolutely

[00:02:31] Grace Duffy: much. We’re so excited to have you here. So for all the discussion, we’re going to jump right in, because there’s so much to talk about what is a boundless immersive space after all. So for all the discussion that we’ve been seeing about the metaverse many people are still uncertain about it.

[00:02:46] They’re not sure, even as we’ve talked about it in, in the promotion of the show, people are like, oh, I don’t know. I know, I don’t know about it. So everything we’ve read and seen about it really talks about in terms of the possibilities, keywords possibilities. So we invited you here today, of course, to break down, what should we be knowing about it?

[00:03:03] What should we know about it? And what is its principle application is, or even one at this particular moment, are we still focused on the possibilities? So before we jump into how to talk about the metaverse I, how the Metta versus shaping business and culture, let’s start with what is the metaverse Mitch.

[00:03:22] Tell us about it

What is the Metaverse?

[00:03:23] Mitch Jackson: The metaverse. It’s so much more than a possibility right now. It’s a reality. We’re already in there. A lot of friends of mine, a lot of clients we’ve already got digital virtual office spaces. It’s a new, digital welcome mat that we offer our clients in any company. Any business can do the same thing instead of a snail mail or maybe an email or a text.

[00:03:44] We offer the opportunity for clients to meet us in a virtual world. So the metaverse, as I define it is simply a virtual or digital extension of who we are both personally and professionally, whether it’s the office layout in a virtual. Office room or boardroom, whether it’s the type of avatars that we bring into the metaverse space, whether it’s my face using a webcam, a camera, or uploading a photo from our hard drive and AI linking that image to an avatar body.

[00:04:18] It feels Jeff and grace as though the three of us are in the same room. Having conversations, looking at photographs, watching videos, handling 3d objects, that might be in my case, the subject matter of a particular type of law case litigation or trial, it’s a new way for all of us to connect, to interact, to provide that new exemplary client experience that has never been available in the history of our planet.

[00:04:47] In the past, I was telling you, before we went live. What I see happening is I see the metaverse when we say metaverse, we’re not talking about the matrix or one single massive metaverse, we’re really talking about micro versus we’re talking about just digital experiences in VR that a company can set up or a group of people can set up to do the things that we’re going to be talking about today.

[00:05:12] I’ll bring up and share with your audience three or four of my favorite metaphor sites that I think are really powerful. There’s easy to use as Ecamm or any other platform where you can send a link out, click and bring a client in, or bring an audience in and really create a new type of experience.

[00:05:29] But I think the metaverse, this type of technology is going to have a greater impact on society, on civilization, on how we communicate as human beings, more so than the printing press, which was invented back in the 1400 Okay. This is going to have as great an impact on society. As electricity as the internet, as we know it, this is not an app.

[00:05:53] This is not a new platform. It’s a new concept. When you look at, and I’m wrapping this up. Cause I know as a lawyer, I like to talk a lot, but this is the foundation for the rest of the show. It’s really important for people to wrap their minds around this. What’s critically important. is this is so much more than just an app or a platform because of the pandemic, because of social distancing, because of the consumer being more comfortable with remote interactions with companies and businesses and professional service organizations, the consumer expectations are, they want to be able to connect in a digital world.

[00:06:28] When you add that new factor, that’s never been around before. before the last two years with 5g technology with fast internet speed with computer processing power, that allows us to create and take advantage of these 3d virtual environments. The future is here. It’s already happening. When you look at the New York stock exchange that has a market cap value of around $27 trillion, actually making plans and filing IP intellectual property so that they can sell stocks and NFTs and do business in their own metaverse platform.

[00:07:08] That should tell you something. When you look at JP Morgan the largest bank in the United States a bank with an equity cap of about $4 trillion. When you look at JP Morgan doing the same thing, look, none of us need to be the sharpest knives in the drawer to realize that if companies like this are building out virtual spaces in their metaverse’s maybe there’s something to this metaverse thing.

[00:07:36] So that’s what I’ve done my whole life. As I’ve watched with the big boys and the big girls are doing in Business, pay attention to trends. I pay attention to market caps and I’m telling everybody right now, bookmark this show, come back in 10 years and buy me lunch because I’m spot on this issue.

[00:07:53] This is changing everything. Are we all done? Can I go now?

[00:07:59] Grace Duffy: That was a good foundation talking about it. I’m glad you brought up the JP Morgan chase. I was going to ask you about that, but I, it’s worth calling out that they did open their first bank in the metaverse bedding. And this is a quote from Forbes bedding that the metaverse is a 1 trillion, 1 trillion yearly opportunity, 1 trillion, and they put their, they’ve put their own investment into it.

[00:08:24] Jeff Sieh: And also on that same note, I think it was last week or two weeks ago, Disney like hired a metaverse like director, like de Disney’s going into it. That there’s like a Metro saying there’s teeth when these big boys start going and they know no something’s going to happen. You mentioned the ease of use, like with Ecamm.

[00:08:42] And I forgot to mention that the star of the show that this show is sponsored by Ecamm and you can find out more at socialmedianewslive.com/ecamm. One of the things that I have been doing is like, when I watch shows, like I know Ian Anderson Grays is here, Chris Stone has the show Dealcasters that I have actually started watching.

[00:08:59] Inside of VR because FA Facebook live goes inside of VR and I can watch it there. It’s a lot of fun. And that’s just the tip of the iceberg of the things you can do in VR. We’ve watched, I’ve watched space, X launches, all sorts of things. And we’re going to dive into that a little bit, but I want to make sure I mentioned Ecamm because that’s an easy way to go live.

[00:09:17] Even now into the, you can go live into the metaverse just socialmedianewslive.com/ecamm. And by the way, they are doing a special right now. Our friend Adrian Salisbury, who has been on the show before is doing his Ecamm Live Academy. And you can find out more about that by this address and the street screen, it’s adriansalisbury.com/e-live-academy.

[00:09:36] So make sure and check that out. It starts next week. I wanted to talk really quick about, we’ve all witnessed the.com boom and bust, right? We’ve seen these platforms like ride. Be declared dead and then they come back again. A lot of people said the same thing about VR, it was, nobody’s going to use it.

[00:09:58] It’s too expensive. I don’t want to have things on my face. But we also have to balance the fear of missing out with the dread of having one more thing to do. So what’s a good way, Mitch, for someone who’s curious, but uncertain to learn about this metaverse and check out this kind of new experience.

How Do We Experience The Metaverse?

[00:10:16] Mitch Jackson: I think the best way is to start playing around with some of the platforms free platforms like Spacial.io or engagevr.io or jump over to horizon work rooms.

[00:10:36] These are all platforms that allow you free access, whether you’re using your phone, your tablet your laptop, or your desktop to, to play around with the platforms for an improved experience. Like 95% improvement you want to grab maybe an Oculus quest two, there are about $300. It’s a very inexpensive way to really experience all the virtual reality aspects of these platforms.

[00:10:59] But I think getting your hands dirty, just diving in, having some fun kicking the tires is the best way to really understand when you hear people say that wow factor of what they just experienced. That’s probably the best way to start. And like anything else, the more time you put into something, I think the easier it gets.

[00:11:20] And so I want people to have fun with this process. Don’t have your first important business meeting. In the metaverse the first time you ever used the metamours, right? It’s anything else. And just get some friends together and play around with the platforms. One of the reasons I’m writing the book Grayson Jeff is because it’s for business owners, entrepreneurs, creators, professional service individuals.

[00:11:43] I don’t want them to worry about coding. I don’t want them to worry about technology. It’s this is what you need to do. These are the platforms. This is the technology. Once you’re in these platforms, this is how you can communicate using anchor points, working the room, bringing in vote, photos and videos.

[00:11:59] While you’re speaking by tapping your control panel on your wrist. There’s just a lot of things you can do renting real estate, purchasing digital property, or taking advantage in spatial.io and engage vr.io. And I have no financial interest in either one of those companies. You can literally tap.

[00:12:19] A template, hundreds of templates, and you can create a boardroom, an office space, a courtroom, a big speaking area where you can talk to literally hundreds of people in a beautiful conference setting. That’s designed by just talented graphic artists for free in less than two minutes. And so I want people to really wrap their heads around moving forward.

[00:12:42] For me, this was like back in the day when the internet first rolled around, we used to have to code in order to access the internet. This was before the browsers and I’m showing my age right now. When browser technology came around, it opened up the world wide web. To everyone with just a couple of clicks.

[00:13:01] What we’re seeing now with the technology based upon 5g, consumer expectations, inexpensive headsets is these are the new browsers or windows into these new virtual experiences. They’re here now. Now’s the time to get involved and it’s not complicated. It’s not difficult. When you talk about virtual environments job, I watched a great deal of the winter Olympics through my Oculus through the NBC application, which was free eight K is what they were streaming at.

[00:13:33] And I felt like I was standing next to the mogul run, watching the skiers come down. I swear. I felt like there was cold ice on my face when they split by that’s how realistic this is everyone. You don’t get that from a 2d environment. You certainly don’t get that over the phone or with an email exchange.

[00:13:54] For me it’s all of the above. 100 X and that’s what we’re talking about today.

[00:14:00] Jeff Sieh: So I wanted to bring up a comment real quick from our friend Nancy. And she goes, no, Mitch, you’re just showing your not your age, but your experience and expertise.

[00:14:12] So one of the things and your point, it’s hard to, if somebody hasn’t put on a headset or actually gone into VR or whatever, it’s hard to explain until you do it. But

[00:14:23] Mitch Jackson: it’s like trying to give somebody a haircut over the telephone, right?

[00:14:27] Jeff Sieh: It’s until you do it. Like I was able, I remember the first time I put one on, I did Google where you could go and walk the street.

[00:14:33] I went back to my hometown. I grew up in and was able to walk the streets and I, it was moving. It was really. Yeah. Laundry hold wander. Yeah. It’s and it really does until you experience it, it’s hard to explain. I am a star wars junk nerd, and I’m able to fly an X wing with a rogue squadron.

[00:14:52] It’s just drives you. It’s the stuff you can do is amazing. You mentioned horizon works rooms, and I want to talk about that. Pay Fitzpatrick and I, we produce the guy. Kawasaki is remarkable people, which I know you’ve a fan of Mitch grant and we got into horizons work’s room and we’re able to go to the whiteboard, use our computers, share our screens.

[00:15:13] And it was really like peg was sitting right next to me. Which is, it’s just, it’s real. It is going to be the zoom killer eventually in my humble opinion.

[00:15:22] Mitch Jackson: Let’s talk about that real quick. So what this is, it’s a free app. It’s in beta right now. And you sit down at your desk, you wave your wand, which is one of these.

[00:15:36] Let me hold this up. This is one of the controllers for the Oculus, for example, across your desk and you create a virtual desk. So while I’m in this virtual office with grace and Jeff, my keyboards in front of me, I’m able to use my keyboard. My desktop screen is in front of me. I can make it smaller, large, so I can actually work.

[00:15:54] Like I’m sitting at my desk. I look over and grace and Jeff are both in the horizon workrooms office. We can share videos, we can share photos. We can walk over to the whiteboard and interact and brainstorm. We can change the seating layout. From a round table to a presentation table, to a traditional office desk, we can change the office location to big city lights, or maybe we’re up in the mountains during a snow storm, the technology, and it’s just in beta is just blowing me away.

[00:16:25] But that’s what Horizon workrooms we’re using it internally for our internal meetings. And then we’re using spatial.io and engaged VR for our external meetings with clients. A quick story. I met a potential client in engaged VR in a conference room setting. And within 60 seconds, the client it’s a tech client.

[00:16:44] They get the stuff, the tech clients, Mitch stop talking. Your our lawyer we’re hiring your firm. They were blown away by what just happened within the first 60 to 90 seconds. I haven’t had that happen in 35 years of practice. And so that kinda, it kinda tells me something, I’m not the brightest bulb in the lamp, but it’s okay, there’s something to this experience that if we share it correctly with our clients and our customers, or if we’re standing on stage doing a presentation to 500 people in a virtual space, no, that tells me that we have the ability to not only use this new technology to communicate better with people around the world, but we can also use it to build our brands.

[00:17:24] We can also use it to stand out above all the noise. We can use this technology so that we’re different and unique more so than anyone else in town in the same occupation, business or profession. So I think there’s a, to, there, there are multiple facets to embracing this new technology. Number one, to communicate number two, to build your brand, unlike what others are willing to do.

[00:17:47] Jeff Sieh: Yeah, I want to bring up some comments here real quick. Pink, when we were in her, she did do this as really cool. She made some podcast posters for your conference room because, so you can decorate your conference rooms in horizons and have it like branded for your company, which is really cool. But she also asks how many people have the technology to hop in on the VR calls?

[00:18:06] And you can bring in other people as just a regular like webcam experience, correct?

Can Non-VR Users Interact With Horizon Workrooms?

[00:18:12] Mitch Jackson: Absolutely. So in horizons it’s an amazing technology where if you don’t have a webcam, you can come in and almost looks like you’re using E cam the ECAN live video that’s positioned across your desk and engage or spatial or many of the other platforms.

[00:18:30] It it’s the same type of interaction. So a headset improves the interactive ability. I’m going to say by a factor of 90 to 95%. But also for clients that don’t have headsets, they’re new or they’re. Technically, motivated to go that direction. Most of them can tap on their phones or access these interactive experiences from their desktop, their laptop, or their tablet.

[00:18:57] And I think those are the platforms we want to focus on right now. I think being inclusive, and making sure that anybody that wants to attend a meeting can do so without the need for a headset. I think that’s really important right now. And then as people get comfortable we can move forward.

[00:19:13] But, with all of the pluses and benefits of what we’re talking about from a legal standpoint, I also want users of the metaverse because when we talk about the metaverse and we talked about this before we went live, we’re talking about web three, we’re talking about. Blockchain and smart contracts.

[00:19:28] We’re talking about integrating NFTs, non fungible tokens into everything that we’re talking about. And I want people to be careful. I want people to do their due diligence. I want people to understand that with all of these benefits, with all of the exciting things with NFTs selling for $24 million, which is one, something that one crypto punk did sold for two weeks ago with the good comes, the bad, and people need to be careful do your due diligence and make sure you know who you’re doing business with.

[00:19:57] Make sure you have reached searched certain business opportunities, and certainly make sure that you’re following intellectual property laws. And by that, what I’m noticing and a lot of other lawyers and friends of mine are noticing is that content that’s being shared in web three environments in the metaverse oftentimes is protected by copyright.

[00:20:18] Oftentimes, it’s intellectually protected content. So make sure that you’re following the rules and regulations of your. Of your country, of the region of the world that you live in before you start pushing all of this content into these environments. What peg just mentioned is what we’re doing.

[00:20:37] When we meet with a client in a conference room, we go in a few minutes early and we’ll put their logo up on a wall. We’ll go ahead and take their last shiny, impressive marketing video and put it up on the video board so that when the client comes in, they’re immediately impressed that we’ve taken the time and little secret.

[00:20:55] It only took us a couple of minutes to do this. That’s how easy it is. Do they walk into an environment where we show them that we care about their company? We care about their products. And frankly, I think 90% of the deals closed the minute they put on their virtual headset and they look around.

[00:21:11] They’re like, okay, this firm cares about us and everyone listening can do the same thing for their clients and customers.

[00:21:18] Grace Duffy: So our friend, Brian, the wedding, the UK wedding photographer asks is the Oculus the best entry point. I know there are others rumors of apple launching their own later this year.

Should I Jump Into The Metaverse Now?

[00:21:29] Mitch Jackson: Look, I would love to see everyone get involved this weekend. Mean if you want to wait and we’ve got a post, I’ve got a couple of different clubs in groups where I share, best practices and the platforms we’re talking about. And some different links third-party links that I think are helpful.

[00:21:49] I shared a link the other day, and if somebody wants to DM me I’ll find the link, but it talked about the five top, most compatible cost-effective headsets available. Long story short. What I found is the Oculus quest too, like I said, basic price is about $300. It’s the best way to go. It’s wireless.

[00:22:11] It’s easy to use. It’s compatible with all of the top universe platforms that I’m using. And it’s just a no-brainer. If something, we bought 10 of them for our law firm. Okay. I didn’t mention this. We purchased 10 of these so that when clients come in and if the most important question we ask our clients, when we’re done after the first meeting is how would you like us to communicate with you?

[00:22:32] And we stop talking and start listening. If they want to communicate on Instagram, DMS, or Facebook messenger or snail mail, that’s what we’re going to do. Having said that we do offer now, would you like to meet with us in our virtual office space? And if so, we have a headset that we can allow you to use during the term, in your case now almost without exception, the clients that are saying yes, Already have headsets.

[00:22:56] They already understand the value of meeting in these spaces. So it’s a marketing or branding tool for us, but that’s how much we’re all in on this technology. We want clients to be able to leave the office and experience this interaction by reducing the friction and making these devices available.

[00:23:17] So there are a lot of good advice devices out there and headsets, but I do think the Oculus is the way to go look in three to four years. This is what we’re going to be using. It’s improving so quickly that we’ll be using a more traditional type of glass. So rather than just using these to keep the sun out of my eyes while paddleboarding, and yes, it is sunny here in Southern California today.

[00:23:43] The headsets are going to get smarter, lighter, less expensive, just like every other technology device that, that we’ve watched advance, from phase one to phase two to phase three. So that’s a good question, but I would absolutely dive in right

[00:24:00] Jeff Sieh: now. So I’ve actually, because I am a nerd.

[00:24:03] I, I had the first rift, the Oculus where you had it plugged into your thing. I bought the other one that was pretty much a mobile phone that you put on your, so I have done it all and every time again, You mean going wireless was a big deal and the cheap factor. And even I haven’t heard of this, but somebody mentioned that Nancy says she also read that Metta is going to reduce prices on Oculus to bring more people into the metaverse.

[00:24:30] And I can see that happening. I still think they’re going to have different tiers of they’re going to have professional ones for like law firms and everything. And they’re gonna have a lower end model for people just to, a cheap way to get into it. But yeah I agree, Nancy, I think that’s on the horizon for Facebook.

Is The Metaverse Facebook?

[00:24:50] Mitch Jackson: I was going to say great. So I was gonna say, when we talk about the metaverse, I’m not even talking about Facebook, I’m not talking about metadata Mehta I’m talking about, and yes, they’re a player they’re spending tens of billions of dollars, but I am talking about the 10,000 other company. Okay. We did our, that are designing and building metaverse platforms.

[00:25:08] Oftentimes people, consumers haven’t even heard of these companies. And this is something that is just going to be continuing to roll out. And it’s going to be more comfortable for people to talk about as the technology improves, as more people become aware of what’s going on, but. When you bring up Metta.

[00:25:28] One thing that is interesting was Zuck’s kannouncement earlier this week of using voice where create clouds, create an island, create a conference room, just using your voice and AI, creating metaverse spaces AI avatars that will greet your clients and customers. When they come into your office space, almost like a front door concierge.

[00:25:50] It’s good to see you today. Jeff, what can I do for you? Grace? Come on in Jeff. We’re going to have to do a background. Check on you first. You can treat, you can train the AI any way you want, but this is going to be the next level of what we’re talking about. And when peg talked about putting up artwork in an office, what you can already do right now and I’m not exaggerating, everybody took about five minutes is we linked our open sea NFT account.

[00:26:17] For me, it was just photos of paddle boarding and running and things like this and videos. Through our digital wallet to our spatial.io account, I clicked a free template and created an art gallery. And what you can do in these spaces is you can take your NFTs and you can create artwork, or that’s the photo behind the desk.

[00:26:38] That’s the photo up behind the speaker at a large conference, and you can create unlockable, NFT technology. So conference members that click on the photo or the link and take things to the next step, they purchase, access to the NFT or, however you have it set up, you can unlock content or additional options, backstage access, reduced fees for your products and services, a ticket to next year’s event.

[00:27:08] They can all be incorporated into what we might think of just being a pickup. But it’s much, much more. And for me, from a business standpoint, that’s, what’s got me excited about all of the above, because the metaverse integrates with NFT technology that integrates with blockchain and smart chain technology, which then results in a new and better and more efficient client experience.

[00:27:31] I don’t care if you’re selling donuts or trying cases. I really feel like all of this technology can create a better customer experience. It can reduce costs and it can actually help improve your brand. Not only locally, but globally. And so that’s why I’m all in on this technology and we’re experiencing it right now.

[00:27:50] It’s happening right now, everyone. So that’s why I’m so excited.

[00:27:56] Grace Duffy: I love it. So Beth has this question. I know we’ve went through a lot of things, but you listed three main platforms. I think it was horizon, spatial. And then one other one, I just, I think it was. Great. And he is can you quickly list, what is the difference and how you can use each of them?

[00:28:14] Is there a big difference among these three or w like what, I guess it’s the same conversation that we have is like what’s in between Facebook and LinkedIn. There’s a lot of nuance, so I’ll let you walk us through that.

Differences Between VR Platforms

[00:28:26] Mitch Jackson: First of all, I want to say. Best as a fellow Rotarian. So it’s good to see you.

[00:28:31] My friend, spatial.io is created, and I think what we’re using it for more to do with creatives and artists I know McDonald’s has a huge NFT presentation where you actually walk into McDonald’s showroom. And it’s pretty interesting. So we’re using spatial.io for a more artist creative type of client experience.

[00:28:56] Although I did give it to and present to about 30 executives in one of their presentation rooms, which was like an outdoor. Amphitheater in Sedona, Arizona, it’s just beautiful amphitheater live video behind me. And I’m speaking to 30 people in the audience and doing live Q and a, all of us. Most of us had our Oculus is on engage vr.io.

[00:29:18] I, for me, it’s more of a professional business environment where you’re you have conference rooms and conference center and centers. There’s a courtroom that we can use. There’s a beautiful conference facility, hundreds of seats in the audience, vendor booth on each side, we’re using that beds for, our professional clients for the corporations that we represent.

[00:29:41] And then we’re using horizon work rooms because it still is in beta. And it’s not quite as easy to use as some of the other platforms for internal office meetings with respect to the new company that, that Jeff and Grace were kind enough to mention at the top of the hour, I’m meeting my team in horizon workroom.

[00:30:01] For internal meetings. There are a lot of other platforms out there. Obviously what I’m doing is gravitating to platforms where the avatars look, professional platforms where I can put my face on the avatar body. And it looks pretty good, not my face, but the technology as opposed to platforms where it’s more of a cartoonish or Lego type of environment.

[00:30:26] And we see a lot of platforms that are selling a lot of expensive land, a lot of big companies are moving into these other platforms. But for me, it’s just not the platform. I want to build out a presence in. So you want to pick and choose what’s your game plan. What type of first impression and lasting impression do you want to give your audience, your clients, your customers, and then you can pick your platforms.

[00:30:48] Now here’s something everyone needs to pay attention to what’s happening right now is if you build a presence in platform, Office space avatars, maybe you’re purchasing items for the walls, a sculpture for your office or conference room. Right now. It’s not super easy to transfer those items into metaverse B in metaverse C in what we see happening over the next six to 12 months is through the digital wallet technology.

[00:31:17] There’ll be integration between platforms, a, B and C. Okay. So if you spend a lot of time and money building out platform, a, but for some reason you would have preferred to have been in B or maybe sees a brand new platform. That’s rolling out. What we see happening is the integration before between these platforms, which I think will make it easier for people to get involved without having to worry about am I in the right platform when I spending the right money to build out my presence in this platform.

[00:31:45] So as soon as we can bounce around between platforms and you can right now, but it’s a little bit complicated. I think we’re going to see things open up even.

[00:31:55] Jeff Sieh: Very cool. That’s good to know because yeah. It makes sense. And it’s really cool because the technology, like you mentioned NFTs, and a lot of those things, you can display those non fungible token.

[00:32:05] I have had some, I have some MBA like trading cards from top shots. Is the company now being able to display those on those different platforms. I know that’s really attractive for people Disney’s getting in that space now where you can buy sculptures and decorate your room with them. That’s really nice to hear that hopefully.

[00:32:23] Be able to transfer because it’s tied to your wallet and not to an like Facebook or Metta where some of these other spaces. So

[00:32:29] Mitch Jackson: You know, you mentioned Disney, one of my favorite places and favorite people in business, Walt Disney and his family. He came out to my parents’ guest ranch a year before I was born.

[00:32:40] And I have a photo of Mr. Disney on my mom’s horse roam. And they took a trip in my grandfather’s 52, T-Bird down to old tombstone, Arizona together, just Mr. Disney. And my mother spent the day together. And when he came back, the reason he was in town and went down there was to get some ideas for frontier land in the Anaheim property.

[00:33:01] And so when they came back, that’s when they started frontier land and We have a very small part in that whole project, or at least my mom does

[00:33:10] Jeff Sieh: St. I mentioned, and I love you even more just for things that is very cool. That is a

[00:33:14] Mitch Jackson: cool, I’ll

[00:33:15] Jeff Sieh: show you the pictures as far as I would love to. I love to see that.

[00:33:17] It’s very cool. So let’s go.

[00:33:21] Grace Duffy: I, yeah, I wanted to talk to you about your book, the metaverse handbook, because you’re giving us a lot of knowledge, but you have even more in this book about how to create market and sell in the virtual world, which is a big question. A lot of businesses have I wanted to know who you interviewed or who you talked to, as you were writing this book, who are the people that you go to and you were collaborating with when it came to writing this book.

The Metaverse Handbook

[00:33:48] Mitch Jackson: What I did is I went to the people behind the platforms that I’ve already mentioned. And talk to them about what’s happened. What are some of the challenges that they’ve experienced and are expecting to experience moving forward and the users and end users their clients, their customers, business owners, rolling out properties, rolling out a virtual welcome mat, another extension to their existing online traditional office.

[00:34:16] And what are the challenges and how can we fix them? And so what I tried to wrap my mind around was moving forward. How can we fix these issues right now so that I can. Shorten the learning curve for anybody reading the book. So in addition to everything, we talked about technology equipment platforms, how to communicate in the metaverse.

[00:34:36] For example, if you’ve been in the metaverse and in Grace, I don’t know if you’ve got a headset, but I know Jeff spit. Grace, do you have a headset? Have you been in the metaverse?

[00:34:44] Grace Duffy: I was just getting out the Jeff, I have the Google cardboard and the rift and I have the, whatever the other one was.

[00:34:54] Yeah. So

[00:34:55] Mitch Jackson: yeah. You know how, when you show up, sometimes when you show up and people showing up for the first time, their advertisers. It’s they just sit there and they’re not moving and they’re trying to communicate. And I have a whole section in the book on how to communicate and use anchor points, what we use in the courtroom to really win over and build rapport with 12 people we’ve never met before.

[00:35:15] We’ve litigated a case for three years. Now. It’s all going to come down to 12 strangers who don’t want to be there, who don’t like lawyers during a two week trial. What, how do you connect with these people? How do you get them to see the facts through your lens? I’ve noticed the same thing applies in the metaverse.

[00:35:32] So we teach different communication skills. I think it’s critically important. Anybody can click and create a metaverse virtual space, but I think communication and persuasion are important. And so we spend time talking about that. We also spend time talking about. As we mentioned earlier, some of the legal things people need to pay attention to, for example, read the terms of service agreement, the tos agreement of the platform, or platforms that you’re going to be using, understand what your rights are.

[00:36:02] If something happens the way you don’t want it to happen, what are your rights? What do you have to do next? You want to be careful with the tos agreement. One of the reasons my book’s not out today and we’re still working on it, I’m 95% done is because. Ideas are being brought to me by people that I’m meeting.

[00:36:22] For example, right now you guys have given me a couple of ideas for new chapters, for example, sexual harassment in the metaverse. What we’re noticing is we’re noticing in HR human resource concerns, we’re noticing things happening because it is a much more laxed environments where we’re noticing inappropriate conduct between an employer and an employee.

[00:36:46] That probably both individuals are not really thinking about, but the reality is state and federal law, as it applies today, more than likely at least here in the United States will apply to interactions between an employer and employee in the metaverse. And so we have a chapter that talks about understanding traditional laws and how they apply online.

[00:37:07] I think that’s super important. We have another chapter about physical and mental health. When you put on a headset it’s easy for three or four hours to go over. It’s an all inclusive, entertaining situation, especially in business. And so we want people to check themselves before they wreck themselves.

[00:37:25] For example, you want to hydrate and drink water. You want to make sure you’re not disregarding your family or your favorite pat, while you’re in the metaverse, you want to do things for example, to balance your virtual experience with your physical and mental wellbeing. So these are chapters that we’re continuing to add to the book, but I think they’re super important.

[00:37:48] And the other thing we’re doing is we’re actually monitoring some of the trending legal matters that have to do with NFTs, non fungible tokens. When people are buying and selling non fungible tokens. Right now, everybody’s looking at artwork being bought and sold with a lot of crazy zeroes behind this.

[00:38:09] We’re seeing, you’re hearing the term Rudd pole you’re hearing about open sea being hacked with almost $2 million us dollars, being taken from open. See, because people are clicking on the wrong links. They’re being fished and doing things incorrectly. You’re looking at major cryptocurrency platforms paying the sec, the securities and exchange commission $100 million.

[00:38:34] Okay. For allegedly security improprieties in violation of rules and regulations, there’s a real business legal side to everything we’re talking about. So we’re monitoring. And in the book for just the everyday business person, we’re laying out the things they need to be aware of. If you’re using NFTs to sell tickets to your next conference, or to offer your products and services and unlockable products and services to your clients.

[00:39:02] And I think there’s an opportunity for almost any business to do this. You want to make sure that you’re not violating the how case. And it’s a 1934 us Supreme court case that basically says, look, whether you’re selling oranges or stocks or cryptocurrency, if these four elements are met, there’s a very good chance that what you’re doing could be determined to be selling securities.

[00:39:28] And if you’re selling securities, you need to file certain. Documentation and follow the rules and regulations. And what I’m seeing, especially with a lot of these big drops is in my appealing opinion, especially when it comes to fractionalized NFTs. I think what we’re seeing happening in real and in real time or the transaction of securities, and I think what we’re going to expect to see towards the end of this year, 2022 will be the sec coming down on some of these large drops that we’re seeing and they’re going to be held accountable just like that cryptocurrency platform.

Importance Of Protecting Yourself In The Metaverse

[00:40:01] Mitch Jackson: I don’t want to scare anybody, but what I’m trying to get across is there’s a lot of new stuff happening and with all the excitement and the FOMO, and frankly, the opportunities that we’re talking about, it’s also worth spending just a little bit of time, making sure you’re doing all the above. While following the law, you’re doing all the above probably as a corporate entity, probably as a corporation or limited liability company.

[00:40:26] So you’re separating your business liabilities from your personal assets, your bank account, your equity in your home, your family, Basset hound. You don’t want any of those things taken by judgment creditor, right? And so it’s about using traditional business ideas with a legal twist in these virtual worlds.

[00:40:44] And I think the individuals, the entrepreneurs and the business owners that do this small and large are the ones that will be positioning themselves. Not only to safely move, do business in the metaverse moving forward, but also position themselves. For example, for selling a company or the infusion of money from ventral venture capital, you need to have all of your T’s crossed and your I’s dotted to do the above.

[00:41:08] So that’s why I’m excited about this book. We’re going to put it all together and, heaven forbid, anyone else gives me any more ideas for chapters going to get done, but it’s basically

[00:41:19] Jeff Sieh: almost done. So I’m excited. So I wanted to make sure people are listening to the podcast, get where they can get updates about the book when it’s going to come out.

[00:41:26] There’s also a bunch of other stuff on that page that it’s Mitch jackson.com forward slash metaverse dash book Mitch jackson.com forward slash metaverse dash book. Tons of information on that page as well. So make sure you guys go check that out, sign up for updates. He’s got some great LinkedIn newsletters on there too, so make sure you sign up.

[00:41:44] If you’re interested at all at any. Because you really should be because it’s what’s, the future is going to hold. Make sure you guys go check out this page in his book. Cause it’s, I can’t wait till it comes out. Cause I really want to read it right now. So

[00:41:59] Grace Duffy: we’re part of the shaping of it,

[00:42:00] Jeff Sieh: Jeff.

[00:42:00] That’s right. We’re giving you ideas. So I wanted to go and I’ve read a lot about this and it’s a big concern. My kids are older now, but Ian has younger kids and he has this question. Do you think the metaverse is just too immersive, especially for kids and I’ll give my opinion. There’s no way to monitor it really right now when those kids put on those Autumn’s Oculus headsets and lets they’re streaming it to your TV or your phone where you can watch it.

[00:42:27] It’s a little scary for me. If I would had a younger kid to throw them into or give them access to an Oculus quest headset. What are your thoughts on this Mitch? And kind

How Do I Protect My Kids In The Metaverse?

[00:42:37] Mitch Jackson: I think both you and Ian, are spot on. I think it comes down to anything else you don’t want to just give your child access to social media, without some type of monitoring, you don’t want to give your child access to an iPhone or Android phone without setting some rules and some guidelines.

[00:42:56] You don’t want to give your child a headset and say, Hey, and I’m seeing this happen in the metaverse. So I get it. Yeah. Have fun. I’ll be back in three hours and use that as a babysitting tool. I think just like anything else, whether you’re giving a young adult, the keys to a car. Without proper training and driver education or Mike, I wrote and race motocross for 38 years.

[00:43:18] I wouldn’t give my child a dirt bike out on the dirt track and say, just go for it without teaching him or her, they how to do this. I think, yeah, I think there were some real-world concerns with everything we do in life. And when it comes to the metaverse, I think we need to pay attention to the upside and the downside.

[00:43:38] For example, I saw a post and I shared it yesterday on my Twitter feed about kids or miners having access to a strip club in the metaverse. And so obviously that’s not okay. And obviously we need to fix that, how is a child allowed access to that particular. In the metaverse as a parent, we need to pay attention to all the things.

[00:44:05] Jeff, you said something that’s interesting. And that is what a lot of people don’t realize is you can record and you can cast, you can stream what someone’s doing in their headset, to your phone, to your laptop and to your big screen on the television. And so you can actually monitor where your children are and what they’re doing.

[00:44:24] Unless you’ve got a really smart kid that knows how to hack around that. But we’re seeing that with social media right now, we’re seeing that with gaming right now, real issues just pay attention and anything else for me, I think the pluses in the benefits outweigh the negative.

[00:44:42] But it just comes from being an attentive parent, in my opinion. Yeah.

[00:44:46] Grace Duffy: I have both, I have a very, I’m a very tricky kid and I have the Oculus class that they have in addition to the rim. And so what we’ve done in our household, so I have teenagers. And so their old playroom is now the VR space.

[00:44:59] They have their little rug and that’s the parameters that they set. And then it’s just a big empty space. And so we bought a Google Chrome cast and so they cast whatever they’re doing. It’s on there. It’s on the big treat TV that’s in there and they love it because then, my daughter and my son can both interact with each other, even though one has the headset.

[00:45:19] So it’s a lot of fun, but there was one day when I walked in and it was like, when I think we got snowed in or something, and my son was actually attending class in his, in the Oculus. And I was just like, okay. Just make sure you’re there for attendance, son, whatever. And I just kinda walked away and he showed me what he was doing.

[00:45:37] And he was like, like you said, Mitch, he had the desk and he was interacting and writing proofs on the board and I’m like, okay, just I guess the one call from the school. Okay. Like just

[00:45:47] Mitch Jackson: it’s crazy. Isn’t it? I remember being, I was younger than your son and having three black and white channels on a television.

[00:45:56] And I remember my parents worried about me turning to the wrong channel. And it’s the same challenges as a parent. My kids are 22 and 27, so I’m past that. But I remember back in the day when it came to gaming, are they spending too much time gaming and not enough time out on, outside with their friends.

[00:46:13] And so it was, there were a lot of battles, a lot of arguments, as a parent, but we drew the line and we made sure we’re not here to be our kids’ best friend. We’re here to try to guide them and take them by the hand and make good decisions. It’s not easy. But you said something. I think everyone needs to pay attention.

[00:46:29] The Chrome cast the casting. Okay. So imagine us getting together in a business setting and having a panel of 10 of us talking about how to communicate in persuade in the metaverse and we’re in a metaverse space while we’re doing that. One of us, one of our assistants or team members is Chromecasting sharing that metaverse feed through E cam to the world on 10 different platforms.

[00:46:55] Yup. See, to me, that’s just amazing because you’re in this 3d virtual environment, which is great. And anyone else that wants to be in there can do but at the same time, we’re sharing it with the rest of the world. That’s what is available now today? That frankly, people weren’t even talking about before the pandemic hit, and five years from now, we’re going to 100 X that experience all I would like to also mention before the top of the hour and I don’t have a hard stop.

Protecting Your Cryptocurrency

[00:47:26] Mitch Jackson: So I just want you guys to know that is be careful when it comes to cryptocurrency and setting up your digital wallets, everyone. These are the calls that I’m getting.

[00:47:33] These are the champ, the real-world challenges that I’m seeing when you set up your digital wallet, which you’re going to need to do. We use Metta mask. You can use a hard wallet by ledger, but the point is you’re going to need to connect your digital wallet to a bank account, possibly a credit or debit card.

[00:47:52] And then to your metal wall, it’s going to connect to some of the platforms that we’re talking about. Set up a separate bank. Take out a new debit card or credit card. Keep it separate from your business life and from your personal life. Okay. It could be a new business bank account. Keep a limited amount of funds in those accounts.

[00:48:13] If you need more funds to make a transaction purchase some digital real estate purchase an NFT, you can go online and just transfer money from your traditional bank account to your new bank account. I think by keeping everything separate, what happens is it minimizes the downside to tragedy? It’s so easy to click on a link in discord.

[00:48:32] It’s so easy to be thinking you’re at somebody’s website when in fact, you’re being fished at somebody else’s, malicious website. And so I think, that little tip right there had many of my clients known about it. I think, the phone, my phone wouldn’t be ringing. I wouldn’t be litigating some cases that were litigating.

[00:48:51] It’s just making smart business decisions to minimize your downside risk and maximize your upside opportunity.

[00:48:59] Jeff Sieh: That’s a great point. And yeah, Sabrina even says, great advice set up a separate account and a debit credit card. Yeah. And in fact, I just have a friend right now who’s Instagram and Facebook were hacked.

[00:49:09] And so one of the things to turn on two factor authentication for everything. Yeah. A lot of people don’t have that turned on and I’m like, just, it’s a

[00:49:19] Mitch Jackson: step, it’s a step but people need to understand that with two factor authentication when it comes to digital wallet, when it comes to what we’re talking about, I don’t think it’s good enough.

[00:49:29] And we can go on dive into the details. Why I would encourage everyone to get what’s called a hard wallet get a ledger. I think it’s led G E R Jeff and grace. If I’m not mistaken, get a hard wallet. It’s almost like a USB stick, whether it’s a thumbprint or facial recognition and you plug it into your computer and that’s your digital wallet.

[00:49:51] If you purchase a digital. Make sure you purchase it from the manufacturer. You don’t want to get the best buy on Amazon. Something like this from a third party. It may have malicious software on it, and it’s being put out there to hack into your account. So buy a brand new hard wallet from ledger or one of the other leading platforms, and that’s how you can protect yourself.

[00:50:14] And so just pay attention to that because we don’t want anybody to get hacked. We want everyone to enjoy and prosper. That’s what this is all about.

[00:50:21] Jeff Sieh: That’s great advice from somebody who is deep into the metaverse already. So I want to talk really quick about some of these new things that come out.

[00:50:31] Like I think just this week came out one of the things, and I would love to get your take on this Mitch’s Facebook announced it’s it’s planned to build an AI powered universal speech translator. You mentioned earlier, they the same release they were talking about, voice enabled creation of these VR worlds.

[00:50:49] This universal translator sounds like it’s right out of star Trek. That’s going to happen in real time. And Zuck had said that it’s a superpower, people have dreamed about forever and AI is going to deliver that within our lifetime. So what are your thoughts on this inside of the,

Meta Developing a Universal Translator

[00:51:06] Mitch Jackson: I can’t wait Jeff.

[00:51:07] I can’t wait. I was in a space the other evening. We had a friend of mine from Italy. We had someone from Germany who I met the first time, someone from from South Africa and someone from Australia I still don’t know how to speak Australia, but that’s another show for another time. And but everyone spoke English and we had a great experience, but we would not have met had it not been for that particular metaverse room.

[00:51:30] Now, having said that, how cool would it be to be in a virtual space where everyone’s speaking in real time in their native language yet? We’re all in real time instantly understand. Because it through our headsets, not because of the captions that we’re reading, but we’re actually hearing the translation happened in real time.

[00:51:53] I think that’s amazing. I think that’s what I’m saying is the metaverse is going to change the world, especially when you layer artificial intelligence, when you layer smart contracts to help facilitate deals when you layer blockchain technology. And in some instances, but not all decentralized autonomous organizations, because there are some downsides to them right now, when you layer all of this technology together, the sky legitimately, the sky’s the limit, and that sky is going to be a virtual sky.

[00:52:25] And it’s going to be a sky, as duck said, where we’ll say create a bright blue sky with three sons and a Palm tree. And that’s where I want to have my next meeting. That’s where I want to have my next interview. That’s why I want to hold my next Ecamm live video or podcasts. And I think that’s just around the clock.

[00:52:45] I know it’s just around the corner and I encourage everyone to get involved. Now, learn the foundations, get comfortable with this technology. It only takes 20 to 30 hours of your time to really develop a very comfortable level of everything that we’re talking about. Once that happens, you’re off to the races.

[00:53:03] Once that happens, ping me, let’s meet in the metaverse and let’s have some fun together.

[00:53:09] Jeff Sieh: So final question, Mitch, other than yourself what other companies do you see as leading in this new space? You’re there, you’re having, you’re doing the, with your legal team inside of the metaverse.

[00:53:20] It’s so cool that you’re doing this. What are some other brands or businesses we could look at that you think are doing it really

[00:53:27] Mitch Jackson: well?

What Companies Are Leading In The Metaverse Space?

[00:53:29] Mitch Jackson: That’s an interesting question. I would suggest. It’s so new, it’s so new that I’m really impressed with what the spatial.io team is doing. Honestly, I really think what they’re doing is they’re going about the right way.

[00:53:44] I’d also like to say if for those of you that are interested in NFTs and you’re interested in creating your own, it’s called an NFT drop. See what John, the actor Johnny Depp is doing. If you go to Johnny depths and NFT site, you’re going to see how he’s building community. Everything we’re talking about is built around community, just like traditional web 2.0 social media platforms.

[00:54:10] He’s he sharing his artwork through the community. In an NFT environment, using traditional websites to build interests, to allow for communication. And what he’s done is he’s integrated web 2.0 principles with web three technology in a way where you feel like you’re part of the experience. And I think every business owner, regardless of who you are and what you do, you can model what he’s doing or his team’s doing to create the same type of experience for your product, for your service and for your company.

[00:54:45] Johnny doesn’t know me. I don’t know Johnny, but here I am talking about him to your global audience. You can get your clients and customers to do the same thing, model what works, pay attention to the details. And don’t be afraid to be first. If you’re first, it allows you, I think, to build your brand. And once again, to be heard above all the noise.

[00:55:08] Jeff Sieh: Mitch, this has been awesome. I want to be real cognizant of your time. We’re coming to the top of the hour, but where can people find out all about, we’ve there’s so much stuff. There’s been so many questions. This is just, it feels like we are back where the printing press just started.

[00:55:25] Like a turn of something huge happening, where can people find you the best place to connect and where you want to send them?

[00:55:32] Mitch Jackson: Thank you for asking Jeff and Grace. Thanks for having me on. I really appreciate it. I think the easiest place is just jump over to Tim, to my name, Mitch jackson.com.

[00:55:41] Everything’s there that I’m doing different platforms, different shows, different articles that I think everyone will really enjoy. That’s what we’re sharing the updates with maneuver. Really excited to start this new company with my son who’s in his last semester at the university of Southern California Marshall school of business.

[00:55:58] So it’s fun as a dad to be involved with Garrett and his friends. And that’s the other takeaway before we leave. I’ve watched gen Z. I’ve lived gen Z. I I’m a dad of gen Z. They’re not all that enthusiastic about what the three of us are when it comes to social and a lot of the internet stuff. Okay.

[00:56:18] They’re in a different world. This is something that they understand and appreciate is changing everything. You want to know what gen Z is interested in. Everything. We just talked about, bar none. And so to see his enthusiasm to see he and his friends, and to listen to their conversations and how they’re going to be taking this and bringing in the arts and entertainment and sports in traditional business and help them transition into the different metaverse platforms.

[00:56:48] I’m excited as a dad, I’m excited as a businessman and I’m excited to see gen Z get excited about the world. So that’s where it’s all being shared as over@mitchjackson.com and it was really a pleasure being on today’s show. I enjoyed everything.

[00:57:03] Jeff Sieh: Thank you so much, Mitch. You are the man when it comes to this stuff.

[00:57:06] And we’ve been following you for your social legal advice for such a long time, but also this has just been amazing, but also somebody else is amazing. It’s great stuffy. So grace, where can people find out all about you and what.

[00:57:20] Grace Duffy: I am here every week with Jeff, except when I’m not, you can find me over at restream which is the video content manager there.

[00:57:29] So are rolling out some great content. We relaunched our live show series this past week and looking forward to some great interviews about people doing great things with live video. Join me over there or, follow us here and we’ll be back next week for another riveting show. This was great, Mitch.

[00:57:48] And I also wanted to call attention to your newsletter. You have a newsletter, which you can subscribe through LinkedIn all about the metaverse web three law technology does fantastic. So I want to also bring that to people’s attention and for people to find you on LinkedIn, sign up for your new.

[00:58:04] Mitch Jackson: Yeah, appreciate it,

[00:58:05] Jeff Sieh: Grace.

[00:58:06] And don’t forget about our amazing sponsors at Ecamm who have made this all possible. You can find them at Social Media News, Live dot com forward slash ETM. They are also going to be a social media marketing world, where you can actually they’re going to have some offsite trainings, which will be amazing.

[00:58:21] So if you are going to be going at social media marketing world, make sure you guys go to where they’re at. And you can find out, let me find that I’ll drop it down and below the comments below, because there it is here it is.ecamm.tv/smmw22meetup So make sure you guys go check that out.

[00:58:38] They’ve got some really great trainings, some really good cool people doing that. So make sure you guys go check them out. And as always, we are also a podcast we’d love for you guys to give us a rating review over on your favorite podcast player. Our next show is Friday, March 4th, at 11:00 AM Eastern 10:00 AM central, and you can find us on Facebook, LinkedIn, YouTube, and Amazon.

[00:58:57] Thank you guys. Thank you guys so much for watching us today. Gail Bez, Gary, all of you in the comments for your great questions and for your attention today, we appreciate and love all of you. We’ll see you guys next time. Bye everybody.

(Visited 44 times, 1 visits today)

Leave A Comment

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *