🔔 We’re excited to talk with Mark Schaefer, discussing “Cultivating Community” and diving into his latest book, “Belonging to the Brand. (affiliate)”

In this episode, we’ll explore the essence of building community around your brand. From the foundational concepts in Belonging to the Brand to practical advice on fostering genuine connections, Mark will share his expert insights on creating communities that truly resonate with your audience.

Whether you’re a marketer, social media manager, or a business owner looking to deepen your brand’s impact, you won’t want to miss this conversation. Get ready to learn how to weave community-building into the fabric of your marketing strategy. 🚀

 

Building Brand Communities: Expert Insights with Mark Schaefer

Hey there, folks! It’s Jeff Sieh, coming at you with some fresh insights that are too good to keep to myself. You know, in the dizzying world of likes, shares, and fleeting online interactions, there’s one thing that’s become clear as a bell: if your brand isn’t fostering a community, you’re missing out. So, If you’ve ever wondered about the real secret sauce behind brands that not only survive but thrive in the digital age, let me share some golden nuggets from a conversation we had with marketing expert and author Mark Schaefer that’ll shine a light on why community is the game-changer we’ve all been looking for.

Why Community Isn’t Just a Buzzword

During our chat, Mark Schaefer explained why a brand community is not just nice to have in today’s hyper-connected world; it’s essential. Unlike traditional marketing methods that broadcast to an audience, community building focuses on creating a shared space where genuine connections flourish.

The Moment It All Clicked: Discovering the Heart of Community Building

For Mark, the journey into the depths of community building was an evolution of thought sparked by the shifting sands of marketing dynamics. Amidst the backdrop of his pivotal work, Marketing Rebellion, and the unforeseen accelerant of the pandemic, Schaefer observed a hunger for true connection—a longing for belonging that transcended traditional marketing paradigms. This led Mark to pen his latest book, ‘Belonging to the Brand.’ Here, he gets into the nitty-gritty of creating communities where folks do more than just follow a brand—they’re part of something bigger, connected by shared passions and values.

Audience Schmaudience: It’s All About Community

Mark hit the nail on the head with a crucial distinction that too many overlook: having an audience is not the same as having a community. While an audience might listen, a community engages, interacts, and supports not just the brand but each other. Think of it this way: an audience is like having fans in the stands, while a community is having friends on the field, playing the game with you. It’s those deep connections, where folks not only rally around your brand but also support each other, that turn customers into die-hard fans. This level of engagement creates an emotional bond that transcends typical customer-brand relationships.

Crafting Connections That Count

How do brands like Sephora cultivate communities that drive engagement and sales? It boils down to creating meaningful, value-driven experiences for members. It’s not just about getting folks to sign up; it’s about weaving value into every interaction. Sephora champions meaningful engagement, setting the stage for a space where its community can exchange ideas, experiences, and grow together.

Key Takeaway: Engagement in this context isn’t about likes or comments; it’s about fostering a space where members find genuine value and belonging.

Avoiding Common Community Building Pitfalls

Let’s face it: creating a vibrant community is no walk in the park. There are pitfalls along the way, like turning your community into a glorified sales pitch (yikes!) or losing sight of its core purpose. A successful community centers on shared values and interests, not transactions. Mark’s wisdom reminds us that it requires commitment from every part of the organization and a clear understanding of the “why” in order to thrive.

Peering Into the Crystal Ball: The Future of Communities

As we look to the horizon, Mark underscores the growing significance of communities in navigating the murky waters of misinformation and digital skepticism. In a world where truth can be elusive, communities can offer a beacon of authenticity and trust, enabling brands to maintain relevance and deepen their connection with consumers.

Wrapping Up: Don’t Just Stand There, Belong!

Wrapping up our insightful session with Mark Schaefer, it’s evident that building a community is both an art and a science. For brands willing to roll up their sleeves, the reward is a dedicated space where members not only show up but actively participate and belong. Embracing community building is a journey well worth embarking on, filled with learning, growth, and unparalleled connections.

SHOW TRANSCRIPT

This transcript is automatically generated by Descript.  Any errors or omissions are unintentional.

[00:00:00] Jeff Sieh: Hello folks. Welcome to Social Media News Live. I’m Jeff Sieh and you’re not.

[00:00:05] Ian Anderson Gray: And I’m Ian Anderson Gray and this is the show that keeps you up to date on what’s happening in the world of social media and more.

[00:00:13] Jeff Sieh: Have you ever wondered what it really takes to create a community that not only embraces your brand but actively champions it? Are you curious about the strategies behind building such a devoted following, and maybe you’re aiming to elevate your brand to something that resonates deeply with your audience.

[00:00:29] If you’re at all interested in community, then today’s episode is something you will not want to miss. We’re excited to host Mark Schaefer, a leading figure in the world of marketing, community building, and the author of Belonging to the Brand. Mark’s going to share his insights and advice on how to genuinely connect with your audience and build a community that’s engaged, loyal, and thriving.

[00:00:50] So sit back, clear your schedule, clear your mind, and get ready for this week’s episode of Social Media News Live. Mark, how are you doing today, my friend?

[00:00:59] Mark Schaefer: I couldn’t be better. I, I always love being on your show. So I’ve had a circle around this one and it’s so great to catch up with, with Ian as well. Ian’s been, gosh, I mean, he’s been my friend for probably 10 years. His family has actually been to my house. That’s how good of a friend Ian is.

[00:01:17] Jeff Sieh: that is really cool. And I know, I mean, you had the book that you put out that had a lot of your marketing friends, and I know Ian was in that as well, because Ian gave me a copy of that, actually, when we were last together. So, very, very cool. But if you guys, for some reason, don’t know who Mark Schaefer is, let me introduce him.

[00:01:31] He is a globally recognized author, speaker, futurist, and business consultant. He is a prolific writer and speaker whose work sits at the intersection of marketing, technology, and humanity. He has advanced degrees in marketing and organizational development, holds seven patents, and is a faculty member of the graduate studies program at Rutgers University.

[00:01:52] He is the best best selling author of 10 popular books, including the very first book on influence marketing. His blog Grow and the podcast The Marketing Companion are ranked among the top rated publications in the marketing field. Its clients range from successful startups to global brands like Adidas, Johnson Johnson, Dell, the U.

[00:02:11] S. Air Force, and the U. K. government, and he has appeared on media channels such as CNN, The Wall Street Journal. The New York Times and CBS News. I also want to say, Mark is an incredible keynote speaker. And when I say keynote, I don’t mean that he uses keynote to make his slides like some other speakers title themselves.

[00:02:27] He actually is a really, really good keynote speaker. If you ever have a chance to see Mark speak on stage, it is amazing. It’s always wonderful. It’s always different. So, Mark, thank you once again for being on the show.

[00:02:40] Mark Schaefer: thanks for the kind words, especially about the speaking. I mean, it’s something I really, I’m very proud of. I take it seriously and, and try to do a good job.

[00:02:49] Jeff Sieh: it’s always great. I mean, that, I mean, I, Ian and I both speak and we also, we’ve seen you speak before and we’re somebody, we always kind of look up to other speakers and you just, wow, it’s really, really good. It’s funny. It’s, it’s always entertaining, but it’s also very, very, what, what you need to hear on that day, whatever’s happening in marketing.

[00:03:07] So it’s just, it’s amazing. So.

[00:03:08] Mark Schaefer: Thank you.

[00:03:09] Ian Anderson Gray: I just wanna say I’m a, an international PowerPoint speaker.

[00:03:14] Jeff Sieh: Is it on the wrong side on the road? I mean, how does that work over the UK? Is it different? I don’t know. Is it flipped? I don’t know. but I want to also say something else that’s amazing is our friends over at Ecamm who help sponsor the show. You can find out more about them at ecamm. com forward slash Jeff.

[00:03:28] Use code Jeff15 to save 15 percent off your first purchase. They are what makes this show happen and allow me to have amazing guests like Mark Schaefer. on the show. So without further ado, let’s jump into this. We’re going to be starting with kind of community foundations. you know, Mark, in your, in your book, Belonging to the Brand, you kind of really, really focus on community as a core strategy and you’ve described brand communities as the most overlooked opportunity out there.

[00:03:58] So what made you have that pivotal moment that solidified this belief for you, especially as, you know, marketing changes so much.

[00:04:06] Ian Anderson Gray: evening.

[00:04:12] Mark Schaefer: another book I wrote in, in 2019 called, Marketing Rebellion. And that’s the

[00:04:22] Ian Anderson Gray: us,

[00:04:24] Mark Schaefer: over my head, I’m backwards.

[00:04:28] Ian Anderson Gray: hope to

[00:04:32] Mark Schaefer: and community. And I predicted that this was going to be a big part of marketing in the future.

[00:04:39] Marketing Rebellion was kind of a wake up call saying, look, a lot of the things we do in the traditional marketing world, a lot of our traditional advertising and the way that we, we work with customers, it just doesn’t work anymore. And we need some new ideas. All right, so this book came out in 2019 and then boom, here we are in 2020, pandemic.

[00:05:00] And a lot of people started connecting with me saying, Mark, the ideas that you had in that book are coming true. everything is, is happening faster than you predicted because it’s being accelerated by the pandemic. And I realized that that chapter. on belonging was the most important chapter in the book.

[00:05:25] And it really needed to be its own book. so that was really the, the first thing that happened. And then, you know, then I saw a headline in the New York Times that said, The loneliest generation, and they’re talking about our children and our teenagers and how we have record levels of isolation and, and loneliness and depression.

[00:05:54] And this was not created by the pandemic, but it was accelerated by the pandemic. And I should also emphasize, it’s not just young people, just almost every generation is more and more isolated. And I thought I started to think about You know, the psychological need of belonging, the sociological implications of, of, of loneliness and how that can sort of be addressed in communities and why not brand communities.

[00:06:21] So, it, it, it just launched a, a, a big idea. I just think this is the time, this is the moment, and, and I, I think, I, I think I, I hit it right. the day. I finished the manuscript for the book, McKinsey came out with a major research report that said community is the next big thing in marketing. And, and, and in the year since the book’s come out, I, I really think that that is true.

[00:06:51] I, I, there’s just tremendous momentum, tremendous amount of money being spent in this space.

[00:07:00] Jeff Sieh: Yeah. So I think we’ve, you know, if you’ve been in marketing for any amount of time, we’ve all kind of seen, you know, that gravitate that way in your book, once again, hit it right on the head. Ian, were you going to say something?

[00:07:11] Ian Anderson Gray: Yeah, no, I, I totally agree with you about the, the whole, we’ve got this loneliness epidemic, and it’s, it’s gonna be interesting to see how brands. Utilize how they respond to this. And one thing that I know that Mark, that you’ve talked about a lot in the past is that brands, when they are making these online interactions, they lack depth.

[00:07:32] How would, how do you recommend that brands create genuinely meaningful connections online, moving beyond these empty social calories to foster real community?

[00:07:43] Mark Schaefer: Well, that’s a great question, and it’s something that I’ve been thinking a lot about, and writing a lot about, so one of the things I think we need to, like, establish right up front is that a lot of people can, confuse audience with community, so a lot of people say, I’ve got a TikTok community, I’ve got an Instagram community.

[00:08:08] No, you really don’t. It’s, it’s, it’s an audience. So, I mean, if you go away, the audience goes away. In a community, people know each other. So, there’s a depth of emotion. There’s a depth of connection that is above and beyond an audience. An audience, generally on TikTok, Or, you know, you know, Instagrams or YouTube.

[00:08:33] It’s a parasocial relationship, right? If you love Mr. Beast, you just think he’s like part of the family, right? But you don’t know any, most other people who are connecting with Mr. Beast because it’s an audience and the research shows. When people in a community connect in a meaningful way, that goodwill, that emotion transfers to the brand.

[00:08:58] Which is why I say that a true community, that is the highest emotional attachment you can have. And what are we trying to do in brand marketing? Create an emotional connection between what we do and our audience. So, the first idea is a lot of brands say, Well, I’m doing influencer marketing. And, so that’s community marketing, but it’s, it’s really not, and I’m not saying don’t do influencer marketing, by the way.

[00:09:29] I mean, I’m a, a, as you said, Jeff, I wrote the first book on influence marketing. I’ve been following it since the beginning. I’m a big fan. I think it’s just starting. I think it’s essential. but it’s, it’s, it deserves a completely different approach than Community marketing. So influence marketing is great for awareness, but it doesn’t really build an emotional attachment because the emotional attachment is to the influencer, not necessarily to you.

[00:09:58] Now, let’s talk about in a community. a brand, you’ve got three options. You can build your own, you can borrow an existing community, or you can partner. So, you know, building a community, there are many, many brands with incredible communities. one of the most impressive ones is Sephora, and that’s a familiar brand.

[00:10:24] Because they’ve got stores in almost, you know, brick and mortar stores in almost every city in the world. yet 80% of their revenue comes from their online community, which surprises a lot of people. ’cause they have so many stores. They have 6 million people in their community. and, I estimate they’re spending about a billion dollars a year, on their community.

[00:10:48] So, and, and the, the CMO of Sephora says the number one measurement they have is engagement because they know to be successful in a community, they have to be relevant. And if people are engaging, that shows. They’re being, they’re being relevant and people will continue to come back. And if they continue to come back, then they’re going to buy stuff.

[00:11:13] You know, I’m not in so on, on the social media side, I’m not a real, a huge fan of engagement as a metric. But in the community space, definitely. Number two would be Borrow. So almost every brand out there has, has a fan club. There are people out there talking about how they use a certain product and how they love a certain product.

[00:11:39] And so often, the work is already done. The community is, is, is already established and a brand could come in and maybe be helpful and create some, I mean, there’s a bunch of great resources that are out there. Start some new content, maybe some activities, create some contests, have some giveaways, and just be a friendly member of the community.

[00:12:01] And then the third type is to partner. And so, let’s say,

[00:12:07] Ian Anderson Gray: for joining us.

[00:12:08] Mark Schaefer: I think something like 90%. of the largest Facebook groups are, are mom related. It’s, it’s, it’s mom, mom issues, mom entrepreneurs, family issues. And so these, I mean, this is an amazing target audience for a lot of brands. Who are trying to connect with, with moms or the people who control the household budget.

[00:12:40] and so you could go into the community and say, Ha, look, we want to be part of this. And I have to emphasize, it’s not really a brand being part of the community. It’s a person being part of a community.

[00:12:52] Jeff Sieh: Right, right,

[00:12:53] Mark Schaefer: Right? I mean, you’ve got to be a real person. And that’s a, a, an entirely different way. To think for many companies, because most companies, they want, you know, they’re thinking, ah, we’re going to get our advertising agency to do this.

[00:13:06] You know, no, that’s not how it works. You know, a community, it’s, you’re really building a connection. You’re building trust. You’re being, you want to be part of it. You want to be helpful. You want to be respected. And that’s how you can build these, these bigger, this emotional tie to communities.

[00:13:26] Jeff Sieh: Yeah. So one of the questions that has come up in the comments is, you know, how do brands, and you mentioned those three, build robust communities. I know a lot of times we think of brands and we think of, oh, Coca Cola or Sephora, you know, big, big brands. but, and, and I’m not just saying this because they are a sponsor of the show, but Ecamm has a great community.

[00:13:46] Like, it’s, it blows my mind that inside this, in this Facebook group, like Michael Hyatt will come in there and ask tech questions. Like, you know, and they are so good at that. Ian’s in there as well. so how do, your Rise community is another great example of that. So how do, you know, Ian, you, you have the question before that we talked about in the green room is like, how do we know when to start a community?

[00:14:09] So you want to kind of go on that a little bit, Ian, and talk about, you know, your question about starting.

[00:14:16] Ian Anderson Gray: Yeah. So, I mean, you, Mark, you were talking about brands then it sounded to me like you were talking more, maybe more of the bigger brands and maybe I’m completely wrong, but how, how about smaller brands? How about, creators like me and Jeff? Like, when do we know when to start a. Start a community because you’re right about making that distinction between an audience.

[00:14:39] You know, we might have an audience, but do we need to have like a particular size of audience? Can you maybe go through some of your thoughts on, on that, about the type of brand, the type of business that can have a community?

[00:14:51] Mark Schaefer: well, sure. And as a matter of fact, 80 percent of startups today lead with community as their number one marketing strategy. So it’s, it’s, I would actually say, Ian, that community is a better strategy for small to medium sized businesses than large businesses that have to scale by tens and hundreds of millions of dollars.

[00:15:21] Furthermore Of those startups that lead with brand community, one third say this is the most critical factor in our success. The community, you know, there, there’s, there’s, if you look at, there’s a lot of disruptor brands out there in, in consumer products. there’s a new health drink, called Gorgie is G O R G I E, right?

[00:15:52] Brand, brand new startup. When you go to their homepage, it says, Join the community that’s building this brand. The first thing they ask you to do is join the community.

[00:16:04] Ian Anderson Gray: us

[00:16:05] Mark Schaefer: not

[00:16:07] Ian Anderson Gray: and

[00:16:09] Mark Schaefer: is a community of people that are testing, they’re giving feedback, they’re encouraging, they might be helping with funding, they might be helping with promotion and advocacy. So, they’re building their fans. Right off the bat. And so I think, small to medium sized businesses definitely have an advantage. Now, your question about how do you know if it’s, if it’s right for you, you know, this is a really good question. I’ve thought a lot about because, you know, people might say, you know, I mean, is it right for everybody?

[00:16:50] And, and I, you know, I, I’m not a hundred percent sure of that answer.

[00:16:55] Ian Anderson Gray: joining

[00:17:01] Mark Schaefer: I mean, six or seven years ago, I started seeing people wearing Yeti T shirts and Yeti hats. And I was thinking, isn’t that a, an ice cooler? Why are they, why are they, you know, it’s like, that’s just the dumbest thing. And for now, it’s a, it’s a, you know, a massive, massive brand. If you go into an America, if you go into a sporting goods store, there’s a whole aisle of Yeti products and yet. This is a brand completely built on community. In fact, they have 15 different communities. And let’s just dive down on this a little bit because it’s a, it’s a great lesson.

[00:17:45] So I’m trying to think like one of their communities is helping. Disadvantaged people, like disabled people, get outdoors. Another community is about mapping unmapped hiking trails. Now, think about this. Getting disadvantaged or disabled people outdoors. Is that good for the brand? Yes. Is it good for their customers?

[00:18:17] Yes. Unmapping, you know, mapping unmapped trails. It’s getting more people outdoors. Is that good for the brand? Yes. They’re going to take Yeti along. Is it good for their customers? Yes. That’s when you know. You have the potential for a great community. When there’s an intersection in purpose, the purpose of the brand intersects with the purpose of their customers in a powerful way.

[00:18:46] How, how can you have a bigger impact on the world if your customers come alongside you? How can your customers grow, learn, create something new, change the world? If. They come into your community. And it’s not about selling more stuff. Hopefully, I mean, you’ve got to sell more stuff eventually, or you’re not going to exist.

[00:19:13] So let’s not ignore that. No one is going to, buying stuff is not a reason to come, to show up in your community every day or every week. There’s got to be an intersection. of, of purpose. And I think that’s one of the big decisions that you, that you need to make as a, as a, as a creator or as a brand. you know, it is, do you have that obvious intersection of purpose?

[00:19:41] Jeff Sieh: So, you know, you mentioned in your book and just a minute ago talking about the stickers and putting on things. So, and is your brand sticker worthy? I think is what you said. In the book? Or, or is your community sticker worthy? And I, and I go back to, I think EAM, their, their community. I mean, they have, they have merch and that just, it still blows my mind that a, a streaming company, that it’s a piece of software has merch that, you know, that people buy and love and rally around.

[00:20:05] I think it started with like customer service that we’re using a dead channel for customer service. But then it morphed into something more like these people rallied around this brand. So how, how, how can you, For people who are trying and thinking about communities, how can you like transform that passive social media, you know, followers into engaged community members?

[00:20:27] Because I’ve seen a lot of people say, I’m going to do a Facebook group, and they do a Facebook group, and it’s just dead on arrival. Like it, nothing happens. Because they say, we’re going to have a community. And then, nobody, none of those followers get transformed in the community. So, what are some of those steps that you need to effectively transform those social media followers to a real community?

[00:20:45] Ian Anderson Gray: look

[00:20:47] Mark Schaefer: question. So,

[00:20:49] Ian Anderson Gray: to seeing

[00:20:52] Mark Schaefer: every community starts with, you know, five or six passionate people. Arguably, the biggest community in the world is Twitch, right? And, and even Twitch started with like six people who said, yeah, we really do want to. Watch other people, you know, play video games.

[00:21:14] What? That can’t be a thing. Yeah, it really is a thing. And it became, you know, this, this massive, massive thing. so if you’ve got five or six people that just are passionate, they want to make something happen. Just as few as that many people can, can get it going. Now, when you start a community, You’re going to have to prime the pump, right?

[00:21:37] You’ve, you’re going to have to create content, create discussions, create activities, maybe combine an online community with an offline event to kind of get things going. But as the passion grows and the enthusiasm, excuse me, for the community grows, then those initial people start bringing in others. Say, hey, we’re doing something great here.

[00:22:09] you know, come on. And as the community starts to grow, then others start filling the gaps and start bringing in their own content. So my own community which is dedicated to learning about the future of marketing is about two and a half years old. So, in the beginning, you know, I had to take on a lot of the responsibility, but now almost everything happening in the community is being led by others.

[00:22:36] We have a monthly discussion on AI. We have, you know, parties and meetings in the metaverse. we have, live events. we, we have book discussions and all of these things are being organized by other people in the community, being led by other people in the community. So part of my role in, in my community and any community leader, there’s a role of Of rewarding status, right?

[00:23:07] Paying attention as the leaders emerge and give them status, give them responsibility. And, you know, because of their passion in the community, they’re happy to do it. And the community becomes greater and bigger and more diverse and, it’s, it’s kind of goes against a lot of the management principles we learned in college.

[00:23:32] but, you know, you just trust other people to help you lead and you kind of give them the, the borders of we kind of, you know, we, it’s got to be a nice place. It’s got to be a safe place. We’re kind of going to be in this topic area. As long as you follow those rules, let’s just go for it.

[00:23:50] Jeff Sieh: So, I want to follow up real quick, Ian, before I get to your question, because I have some that are just, eh. So, I’m a big fan of, you know, and you know him too, Mark, is Lou Mangiello, who does WGW Radio. He’s been doing it for years, like, since podcasting existed, he did it. So he has a community, and it first started with, they were rallying around Disney, right?

[00:24:08] They were Disney fans, they’d come together, and he had his community they came and played with. Well Yes, they still love Disney, but now they love Lou. And so it’s this, it’s been this switch. Now, he still has Disney fans. You could almost say that’s kind of the top of the funnel, but then they, but they come to his community and his events and, and pay for his mastermind and all that stuff because they love Lou.

[00:24:29] So

[00:24:29] Mark Schaefer: Perfect example, perfect example of what this suggests, Jeff, is that the marketing strategy within a community, it’s more important to encourage the relationships, friendships, and connections in a community. So you mentioned at the top of the show that my community had written a book. Ian wrote a chapter in this book.

[00:24:56] We had 36 authors for this book. And I mean, There was this incredible emotion that went into this book. You know, people were terrified and they were worried. They had anxiety and then they had relief and joy and celebration and we had a live book launch party at my house. And so this created this amazing emotional bond between the writers and the editors and, and, and, and so that relationship, that friendship that spills over to the person or spills over to the brand.

[00:25:33] So they might have come in, like, as you’re saying for Lou, they might have come because they’re interested in Disney, but then the, the, the relationships they build in the community overflow to the person or the brand. that’s why I, you know, that’s why this is the, the, the highest level of emotional commitment and loyalty you can attain.

[00:25:57] It’s, it’s, it’s in a, it’s in a community and think about this. The people in that community, they’re not going to go to another Disney community. The people that are, that are the leaders in the Sephora community, they’re not going to go to another place. They literally belong to the brand, right? They literally belong to the brand, which would make a great title for a book.

[00:26:22] Jeff Sieh: it was, and by the way, you can get all, if you’re watching on Amazon, all of Mark’s books are there, but I have highlighted his, belonging to the brand. And by the way, this is really interesting. I don’t know if you know this, Mark, if you are part of Kindle Unlimited right now, which is their. You know, a subscription to see you have your books on there for free right now.

[00:26:36] If you’re part of their plan that you can go and check out and read. So kind of cool. go ahead, Ian. I’m sorry. I cut you off again.

[00:26:45] Ian Anderson Gray: It’s disgraceful. I’ll forgive you though. Yeah. So I, I think that is so true. And being in, in, in your community, the Rise community, you know, the fact that you entrust the people in the community, this, this, I don’t know how you felt about this, but like the fact that you entrusted. 36 authors to be involved in your book, you know, and to, I was really kind of initially touched to be involved and then terrified.

[00:27:14] And then it was that process of, and the fact that you kind of walked us through was amazing. Also being involved with the Metaverse event as well. That was just such an amazing. And, and it’s like, you believe in the people in your community. And this is, this isn’t, I think, a big issue for some brands, you know, how, how does that, how do brands move from, shift from controlling the message to embodying, you could call it servant leadership.

[00:27:46] Influence, you know, servant leadership. How, how does brands move from that towards, building and, and growing the community and building that engagement and that trust, with the people in, in the community?

[00:28:01] Mark Schaefer: Yeah. I mean, this is a wonderful, wonderful question, Ian. so I was, working with, a, a big agency recently, and, and they’re trying to learn about community. And of course, they’re advertising agencies. They’re all about, you know, controlling the message. And this is what our brand is about. And I was talking about, The, the magic of a community is when people are so excited you’re doing something so interesting, so unmissable in the community, like, you know, writing a book that that energy goes outside the community.

[00:28:41] And people are saying, look at what we’re doing. Look at this picture of us on the metaverse. Look at this book that we wrote together. Look at what we’re, this, what we’re doing now. And then. People say, Oh my gosh, I feel like I’m missing something out. I want to be part of that brand journey too. And so the, the, the power is really the user generated content that can come out of a community.

[00:29:04] And the brand said, well, how do you control that?

[00:29:07] Jeff Sieh: Hehe. Mm

[00:29:08] Mark Schaefer: He said, how, how do we control, you know, how do you control the message? I said, well, you don’t. I mean, you don’t, but think about this. Think about influencer marketing versus community led marketing. If influencer marketing, you know, you could build a relationship with an influencer and give them some creative license and then you You know, the, the creator’s going to do something about your brand and hopefully that other people will then create content about the brand.

[00:29:43] Maybe it’ll be part of a contest or something. And you have no control of anything that’s going on. Now, if you’re in a community. That’s a little different. It’s not like the Wild West. You’ve got a leader of the community that sets expectations. You’ve got a culture in the community. You have norms in the community, and you have a little bit more, let’s say, I mean, not necessarily control, but expectations of how people treat each other and, and what people are going to communicate.

[00:30:20] And I wouldn’t use the word control, but there’s certainly a lot of, you know, important influence on people’s lives. About how a brand might be represented with communications coming out of a, of a community. For example, you might say, look, we’ve got this brand. They’re partnering with our community about, you know, a cleaning product and we’re going to have this contest.

[00:30:44] And if you use this specific hashtag and do this specific kind of video, you’ll be entered in this contest to win whatever. That’s very specific and it’s not, you know, demanding what you’re going to say, you’re giving creative license to the people in the community, but yet there’s, there’s more control than you would ever have, just using, you know, influencers.

[00:31:12] Jeff Sieh: Yeah, so I want to bring up this, this, this point from Kira. She goes, I think brands really need to help community members see and feel that they are, are contributing to the brand, not just consuming from it. Brand doesn’t just happen in a boardroom anymore. It is a collaborative effort with your audience.

[00:31:29] And on that note, you know, one of the things I loved about, belonging to

[00:31:33] Mark Schaefer: I just want to compliment her on, on the wisdom of her, of her, comment there. She’s absolutely right. So I just want, I didn’t want to go on without saying that that was a really very, a lot of wisdom there. Thank you.

[00:31:46] Jeff Sieh: Kira is really smart. She, she stops by our show quite a bit and she always drops really great stuff in. So, yeah, thank you for that Kira. but one of the things that you mentioned in belonging to the brand that I thought was really refreshing is, is you mentioned, some of your failures, right?

[00:32:01] Like you have, you had tried. Yeah, you did. You did. You did. So, one of the things she said was like, you know, you tried brands before you had the success of the Rise community. So, what are some of the most common pitfalls in community building and like, what are some lessons that you learned that you can share with us that we can avoid or maybe overcome?

[00:32:24] Mark Schaefer: Well, that’s, that’s, it’s pretty straightforward. I mean, I mean, number one is that any community that is created to sell more stuff is, is going to fail. Right? So, I mean, you know, I, I’m guessing the success of the Ecamm community is because it’s, it’s just helpful. And the purpose of what you’re doing is, in Ecamm is you want to help people.

[00:32:52] Live streaming to succeed. Their customers want live streaming to succeed. Does it make sense to have a community where we help each other, with live, make live streaming succeed? Yes. Right? So that’s the purpose. And if the community is successful, you’re going to sell more stuff because people are going to love you.

[00:33:11] They’re going to be loyal to you. And, and, and, and, you know, they’re going to do more live streaming because they’re learning how to be successful, with you. So if you create a community. You know, and, and the sales department is pressuring you saying, you know, what’s the ROI of this community and when are we going to start seeing more leads, you know, that, that’s a, that’s not going to work as a, as a method to start a community.

[00:33:36] You know, another one is, that’s the number one by far reason why, why communities fail, about 70%. Brand communities fail. And that’s the main reason.

[00:33:49] Ian Anderson Gray: Thank you

[00:33:50] Mark Schaefer: Number two would be, you know, it’s maybe it’s just like an experiment or a pilot, but they’re not really clear on the purpose. They’re not really clear on, you know, what, what, what do we really share with our customers?

[00:34:06] You know, let’s just put it out there and see if, if, if something sticks. And then I think the third reason that communities fail is because Of the company culture. This isn’t just a marketing idea. This has to be supported up and down the company because it can touch a lot of different areas of the company.

[00:34:26] And it’s very different than what we might think of as a marketing campaign where, you know, you, you get the money approved and you get the creative approved, and then you’ll launch the thing. And a couple of months later, it’s over. A community is. You know, the idea is it’s forever that, that you are, you’re, you’re, you’re creating a social contract with the people in this community that if you’re committing your time and, and your emotion to this community, we’re not going to let you down.

[00:35:02] We’re just, we’re going to make it even better. And, so that’s a major, major difference in, in marketing mindset that can cause problems in a community if you don’t have that. That long term commitment,

[00:35:18] Jeff Sieh: So one of the things, you mentioned not, you know, the selling that, that leads to failure if people try to sell too hard when they first start a community. One of the things you said in your book that I thought was really interesting. You said, a brand community, however, does not necessarily have to stay entirely on brand, which is probably the weirdest sentence I have ever written.

[00:35:36] So, Can you say, can you talk about that a little bit, but about that you don’t have to stay on brand. and I think cause that

[00:35:45] Mark Schaefer: not only do you, not only do you, you may not stay on brand. You don’t want to stay on brand and here’s why, because this is the major benefit of the community. Now you need to stay, you know, if you have a brand of cleaning products, you know, you don’t want to start getting into conversations about, you know, robotics, baby, right? Let me tell you about my experience in my community. So when I started my community, you know, I could create little chat rooms. And I thought, well, people are coming into my community, they’re probably going to be interested in what I’m interested in, so I’ll create a little community about personal branding and about speaking and about writing.

[00:36:35] And today, those little chat rooms might be on brand for me, Those are the emptiest rooms in the whole place, because the community came in and said, Look, if we’re going to stay relevant in our careers, if we’re going to learn about the future of marketing. We, we, we need to learn about AI. We need to learn about Web3.

[00:37:02] We need to learn about new advertising platforms. And so they’re taking me to the future. I do not write a blog post. I do not give a speech. I do not write a book that doesn’t have ideas from the community in there. It’s making me more relevant. Here’s a fun fact. We had to make a decision. Where are we going to host the community?

[00:37:29] Should we do a Slack channel? Should it be Facebook? And, and Ian wrote me a comment. He said, Mark, if we’re gonna learn about the future of marketing, why wouldn’t we be on Discord and learn that too? I said, that’s a pretty good argument. So the community took me into Discord, you know, kicking and screaming the whole way. But he was right, and it was a good decision. Now, think about scaling this, Jeff. Think about a brand. If you have, you know, fans who love you from, you know, all over the country or all over the world, and they’re saying, have you thought about this? Have you thought about this? Did you see what your competitor is doing in Germany? It’s like, it’s, it’s a constant dialogue to keep you relevant. Your brand is a relentless journey of relevance. What, what is relevant today, it’s not going to be relevant a year from now, maybe not even a month from now. And, and having this community, it, it, it, you, it takes you on the journey and you have to let them have the space, you know, to, to, to do that.

[00:38:44] Jeff Sieh: those are great points. Yeah. And by the way, Ecamm is on discord too, which is kind of funny that you mentioned that you both are on there. Yeah.

[00:38:51] Ian Anderson Gray: It is kind of funny because at the time I really did not like discord and I thought, but I, I thought like this is the perfect place to learn together. Like, let’s move from like not enjoying it, not understanding it to understanding it. And I think, I don’t know what you think Mark, but I think we’ve definitely got there with, with that, which is cool.

[00:39:09] And I was going to ask you, so like, we’re even more, I think, as human beings distracted than ever. what, What innovative strategies can brands employ to ensure that their community efforts are, you know, stand out in this, in this world of distractions? There’s so many things. I mean, we can talk about TikTok and, and all that kind of stuff.

[00:39:32] How, how, how do we, how do we ensure that the, their community efforts stand out?

[00:39:38] Mark Schaefer: This is going to be a really, and I think this will be an answer that surprises you. you know, remember sort of one of the initial ideas about the book and why I wrote the book is that our, our customers are longing to belong. They’re, I mean, we don’t have, think about, you know, young people today, you know, when I was a kid, if, if, if, if you wanted to go to a movie, you found somebody that had a car, you got into the car, you went to the movie, you watched the movie together, and then you had pizza to talk about the movie.

[00:40:17] If you, if you, if you want, if you. You want to explore new music. You find, one of your friends would say, I saved up my money and I bought this record album. Everybody come over to my house and listen to this record album. All that is gone. All that connection, all that community, all you know, all that, all those shared experiences are gone.

[00:40:41] People put the earbuds in their head and they consume their own lane of content and it’s, it’s, it’s isolated And independent of anything else going on in the world other than maybe Taylor Swift.

[00:40:56] Jeff Sieh: Right.

[00:40:58] Mark Schaefer: but I mean, so, so this, the, the isolation and loneliness, where we’re going with technology and marketing, it’s just making it worse. You know, your instinct might be, oh, well, to make a community great, maybe it’s, you know, it’s great content or, you know, great people. I really think it’s, can you be the most belonging place? Can you really feel, make people feel heard and, and, and validated? You know, it, you know, I, you know, I try my best in my community to really pay attention, especially if there’s a new voice.

[00:41:41] Ian Anderson Gray: I

[00:41:43] Mark Schaefer: in the community and maybe they’re saying, is anybody going to hear me here? You know, I want them to know that they’re heard. I want them to know that they are welcome no matter, you know, how much experience they have. We need that diversity. I, you know, I want people from all over the world and all different ages at all different types of experience, because that will, that will make the community stronger.

[00:42:06] And I, I want them to know that, that they’re, that they’re cherished. in, in the community. And I think that’s the most powerful thing. And, and if you have that, the energy and the passion, will, will, will follow and the ideas will follow. Hey, what if we did this? Okay. Why don’t you do that? Really? I could do that?

[00:42:33] Yeah, go ahead and do it. I mean, that’s kind of, that was scary for me at first as a leader. You know, people say, yeah, I’d love to do that. I can’t believe you’re letting me do that. And that’s how the community grows.

[00:42:47] Jeff Sieh: That’s cool.

[00:42:49] Ian Anderson Gray: Yeah. And I think, I think that’s how I felt certainly with, with the book. And, and I know a lot of the other co authors felt the same, like, Oh my goodness, like Mark Schafer is allowing us to be a part of this book. so yeah, I mean, I think, I think one of the things with communities is, is that. Like people are sometimes scared.

[00:43:09] They, they, they’re worried about like appearing stupid, saying a silly question. And so there’s a lot of lurkers I find with communities, the communities that I’ve been part of, and the ones that I’ve created myself in the past, there are a lot of lurkers because people are afraid to kind of, Almost be vulnerable and share what’s on their mind.

[00:43:29] How do you, how, how do brands, how do you do that in the Rise community? Cause you, you definitely have created this community where people feel open to, to be part of it and to, to talk about things, but how do brands do that in a practical way?

[00:43:44] Mark Schaefer: Yeah, I think. You know, first of all, that I don’t get hung up if people lurk, I respect that people have different personality types, they learn in different ways, you know, I’ve had people write me notes saying, Mark, this is the most amazing community I’ve ever been part of. I’ve never even seen them in the community before, but they just, they want to observe, they want to listen, and you know what?

[00:44:15] That’s okay. I mean, I, that’s perfectly fine. you know, I, I certainly it, it, it would be, it would be more ideal if, if they were active in helping to create the community in a more proactive way. But I also respect that being an introvert or just wanting to listen, that’s part of human diversity.

[00:44:39] Right. So that’s okay. I’m not going to get, I don’t have any goals about engagement rates or engagement levels. And I think all I can do, you know, and I just, I take this so seriously is just, you know, I want this to be a safe place. I don’t want anybody to feel scared or intimidated. I don’t want to feel, I don’t want anybody to feel, you know, disrespected.

[00:45:06] And, and here’s one of the interesting things that happen, happens is that we’ve been able to have really, I mean, debates in our group on very touchy subjects. And, you know, like we had a massive debate about the whole like Bud Light, you know, debacle, and we were able to have this debate in a way that was 100 percent professional, 100 percent you know, professional.

[00:45:38] Almost clinical, 100 percent respectful. And I’m so proud of that. You know, I’m so proud of that. And, and that’s so all, you know, all I can do is, is just make it safe. if there’s a problem, nip it in the bud and, and then let me. Let people make their own decisions. I think that’s the only thing you can do in, in, in a, in a community.

[00:46:04] I, you know, I’m not going to get hung up on engagement rates.

[00:46:09] Jeff Sieh: So when Mark was talking about lurkers, he was talking about me. He was being kind, but that’s me. So, cause I go in there all the time and just see what’s going on in the conversation. But I did go when Ian did present at, in the Metaverse, I did go and support my friend

[00:46:22] Mark Schaefer: Oh yeah, I remember that.

[00:46:23] Jeff Sieh: So, yeah, it was, it was fun.

[00:46:26] but one of the things, one of the reasons I love doing this live show is, you know, our, You were talking about people engaging and taking care of on each other. And like Katie already in the comments is like great comment, Kira. And they talk back and forth. And I love that. That’s what I, why I do the show every week is because it’s so much fun.

[00:46:42] And also because Ecamm makes it so, so easy to do. And once again, they’re. Their sponsor show ecamm. com forward slash Jeff. Find out more about them there and go to their Discord community or their Facebook group and check out the, what Ian and I’ve talked about with their, their community. And also make sure you go to Rise Community on Discord as well.

[00:46:58] It is, it is, even if you lurk like

[00:47:00] Mark Schaefer: you, you actually, you needed it, you needed invitation.

[00:47:03] Jeff Sieh: Oh, do you?

[00:47:04] Mark Schaefer: So yeah, because that, I don’t, you know, it’s, it’s not a place where everybody’s, you know, so, because to come in, you’ve got to understand there’s certain rules, right? So, but anybody who wants to come in. All they have to do is send me an email, so maybe you can, maybe you could put my email address up there, Jeff, if anybody’s interested.

[00:47:22] Just send me an email, and, and say, hey, you know, I want to, I want in, and, we’ll get you onboarded, and you can. You know, you can be part of the community.

[00:47:32] Jeff Sieh: Well, one of the things I, on that note, there’s only a few emails that I read every time they come out and they’re Mark’s emails. He does great job with his emails and he also responds to them. Like if I have a comment or question, he responds back to me. you know, I think that’s even how he got on the show is that he, he did that and he said, Hey, you know, I said, Hey, do you want to come on?

[00:47:50] He said, yeah. So, yeah, get his email, sign up for his newsletter, which you can do on his, I’m going to go into this community impact a little bit with our, gosh, this has flown by so fast. you mentioned these, you know, you can’t measure the ROI very well in, but to measure engagement is one of them.

[00:48:16] Is there any other metrics that you, that you think When you’re looking at the RISE community, you’re going, oh, we need to spend more time there, or I need to do more events, or how do you figure out those things that keep the community growing and engaged if you see something like stagnant, you know, being stagnant or something like that?

[00:48:35] Mark Schaefer: Well, so my community is sort of different because, I mean, you know, I’m not selling cleaning products.

[00:48:44] Jeff Sieh: Right, right.

[00:48:45] Ian Anderson Gray: for joining us today.

[00:48:47] Mark Schaefer: and, so really for me, You know, my, you know, my purpose is, is, is I’m a teacher and it’s a time in my life, to send the elevator back down and, and to teach and being, you know, part of a community like RISE is a great opportunity for me to do that.

[00:49:07] you know, Ian. I mentioned about how deeply touched he felt when he was able to be part of the, of the, of the book project. Right. So, and honestly, this was a big risk for me because I was, I was like giving my platform, my brand name. To 36 people in the community saying, look, you know, maybe you don’t have the time, maybe you don’t have the, the ability to, to write a whole book, but doggone it, you can write a chapter.

[00:49:39] And if you write a chapter, you will be the coauthor of this book forever. And when people Google you, that’s one of the first things they’re going to see. So it was a way for me to, to lift. People in the community to support, people in the community and, and, and honestly, you know, it was, it was really about 95 percent easy. I mean, people followed deadlines. They took it very, very seriously. They cared beyond belief. and so, I think I’m getting off the original topic now, but, well, so you, yeah, I was, I was

[00:50:21] Jeff Sieh: Oh, measuring ROI, like,

[00:50:22] Mark Schaefer: Measuring ROI.

[00:50:23] Jeff Sieh: that kind of thing.

[00:50:25] Mark Schaefer: you know, so, so for me, it’s definitely debate. You know, it’s debate. Is, are, are, are people bringing up new ideas?

[00:50:35] Do they feel free to, you know, discuss and, and debate with each other?

[00:50:40] Ian Anderson Gray: today. us.

[00:50:43] Mark Schaefer: I’m, I’m trying to watch, you know, how many, you know, who is attending some of our monthly events?

[00:50:50] Ian Anderson Gray: us

[00:50:53] Mark Schaefer: you know, are, are we being, relevant? So, I mean, I’m not really looking at, at, at ROI in, in, in the community from that way, but I, but I think if, if you’re a brand.

[00:51:06] so, you know, here, here’s an example that I, that I have in the book, and this is a very important point. Not only are communities becoming a brand marketing strategy, some communities are becoming so big and powerful, they become the business. So, chapter four in the book is devoted to one person, and she’s just an absolute visionary, and one of the most creative and innovative people in the community space.

[00:51:37] Anywhere. And so she created a Facebook group called Boss Mom and it grew and grew and grew and grew. And now she has 80, 000 people in the group and Dana Malstaff is her name and Dana, she’ll create a training video. She’ll create courses. She’ll create events.

[00:51:58] Ian Anderson Gray: I’m Grace Duffy.

[00:52:00] Mark Schaefer: she has no marketing team, no sales team, no marketing budget, no SEO, no advertising.

[00:52:07] She’s making a million dollars a year.

[00:52:10] Ian Anderson Gray: Duffy.

[00:52:10] Mark Schaefer: Because she has 80, 000 people who love her. So, I mean, you know, the ROI of that is almost infinite.

[00:52:19] Jeff Sieh: Right, right, right.

[00:52:21] Mark Schaefer: Because she’s, she’s just good. I mean, and, and, and she doesn’t promote the community. I don’t promote RISE. I mean, people, people come in organically. You know, they hear it from Ian.

[00:52:34] Because Ian is talking about the book. Or they hear it from someone else. Because they posted a picture of one of our Metaverse events, so on LinkedIn, and people say, oh, that sounds cool. How do I get involved? So, yeah, so there’s a lot of ways. I mean, at the end of the day. You know, you’ve got to be able to measure some kind of return.

[00:52:56] but, but I also want to emphasize you have this idea of co creation. People can help brands create new products. That’s what’s happening at Nike. That’s what’s happening at Ikea. That’s what’s happening at Lego. you can help people or can, can collaborate in creative efforts. That’s what’s happening at You know, Coca Cola, Coca Cola is, is giving access to all their brand assets, to, to creators, to use AI, to create, you know, new ideas, new products, new advertising, you know, in a community.

[00:53:35] So, it’s, it’s, you know, it can be a new product, it can be a new ad, it can be a new idea, it can be something that changes your marketing strategy, you know, forever. so there’s, there’s, there’s. You know, I’ve got a list, I think, of 15 different benefits of, of, of, of, of brand marketing in a community and money is just one of them.

[00:53:58] Jeff Sieh: Yeah, and there’s also a great study guide for Belonging to the Brand on Mark’s website as well that you can download, it helps you like even think through some of these processes. Go ahead, Ian.

[00:54:09] Ian Anderson Gray: Yeah. So, I mean, so much, so much that is changing, at the moment, you know, we’ve got AI and, and all these things, and with all these technological advancements that are happening and, and of course, like changing consumer expectations. How do you think that, how do you think the way brands build and run the communities is going to change over the, say the next 10 years?

[00:54:31] for joining

[00:54:48] Mark Schaefer: in terms of assessing the conversations.

[00:54:55] It’s something we’re even talking about in our community now, but I think the most important evolution in community is going to be that there’ll be, an essential part of, of truth making, sense making, and discernment. We are entering a world, we are in a world, of deep fakes. Misinformation, you know, political agendas that are just, you know, moving people every different direction to try to get a vote or something, using, you know, misinformation.

[00:55:38] And if you can come into a community, you know, especially if it’s a brand, you can say, look, you know, look what I just saw.

[00:55:46] Ian Anderson Gray: forward

[00:55:48] Mark Schaefer: that’s a fake. We’ve got to address that. That’s even happening in our community. People are saying, look at this new thing I just, I just read. And someone will say, no, that’s a hoax. We can’t believe that. I think that’s going to be one of the most important roles of, of community. It’s the place we come to try to figure out what is real. What can we believe? Here is the most important question for every business, starting now and, you know, going on forever. It’s this, here’s the most important question our consumers will be asking.

[00:56:24] Is this real? Because we’re not going to know what. But we’re not going to be able to believe our eyes and ears in, in, in the future. And how are you going to, how are you going to address those questions at scale without a community?

[00:56:40] Jeff Sieh: That’s a great point. I think one of the things, and I consider this show as a community, and Ian and I have talked about this before, is I think live video and podcasting is going to be one of the last things AI can really, like, I can bring in, you

[00:56:51] Mark Schaefer: I think podcasting is going to end up being the most human, communication channel. Podcasting slash live streaming.

[00:56:59] Jeff Sieh: Yeah, because I mean, like I can bring in comments that AI is not going to be able to do this, right? And so, by the way, this is great. I’m not sure who posted, but says, if you need an invitation to join the community, you can write Mark Schaefer at mark. schaefer at businessgrow. com. And for the, for the people listening to the podcast, Mark Schaefer is spelled S C H A E F E R at businessgrow.

[00:57:22] com. So that’s the email.

[00:57:24] Mark Schaefer: Businesses grow.

[00:57:26] Jeff Sieh: Businesses grow. Okay. Okay. So, but, and, and as we wrap this up, Mark, my mind is exploding. You have done such a great job with community, but I want to give you a chance to tell people what you got coming up next. If you’re working on any other books or whatever you have on your mind that you want to push or promote or any of those things, the floor is yours.

[00:57:48] Mark Schaefer: Oh, great. You know, actually, I do have a new book coming out, which I haven’t even really announced yet, but I’ll, okay, so here’s a world debut for you. So, this is going to surprise a lot of people that my best selling book ever was a book I, I wrote in 2014 called Social Media Explained. I did a second version, edition in 2018.

[00:58:11] I’m going to have a third edition coming out, in a few weeks. And there’s going to be a heavy emphasis there. on, AI. So that’s coming out. Obviously, you know, Belonging to the Brand, it’s, it’s a book. It’s in the same sort of category as Marketing Rebellion, where it’s really, it’s creating a movement.

[00:58:31] You know, I think it’s the right book for the right time. And so, you know, if you want to know what’s next in, in marketing and social media marketing, I think Belonging to the Brand is, is a, is a, is a great book. And then the last thing I guess I’ll mention is I do have a marketing retreat. Every year.

[00:58:51] and, the, it’s usually in April, but the April event, sold out months ago. And so I now have another one in October. It’s called the Uprising and I limit this to 30 people and we go off to a lodge in the forest. And we think big thoughts, and we have a lot of fun, and it’s the most remarkable event you will ever go to.

[00:59:14] I will promise you that. Many people have said this is, that that event has changed my life. About half the people that come to the Uprising have been there before. So, check it out. You can find that on my website under events. So

[00:59:28] Jeff Sieh: Awesome. Before we wrap up, I do want to bring up another, because she’s so wise, is Kira says this, she goes, In 2013, I took a Rutgers online course with Mark. His wisdom in that course, his books and content have been a guiding light for marketers. Thank you, Mark, Jeff, and Ian for a great show. Yes, thank you so much.

[00:59:46] Thank you for all of you who show up every week. Jim, Katie, all you folks, Gary, of course. You guys are amazing. I wouldn’t be able to do this show without you. And we also want to say thanks to our sponsor, Ecamm, ecamm. live forward slash ecamm. com forward slash Jeff, use code Jeff15 to save 15 percent on your first purchase.

[01:00:06] Thank you for them for sponsoring the show. Thank you, Mark. Thank you, Ian. Ian, where can people find out more about you and all the amazing thing Ian has going on right now?

[01:00:14] Ian Anderson Gray: this is my website. My site is It’s in, well it’s not, it’s not, it’s IAG. me, I, I, I think my brain’s going at the end of all of that. All the, all these amazing things Mark, Mark’s been talking about. So yeah, and my, my podcast is the Confident Live Marketing Podcast, which I’m relaunching very, very soon this, this month.

[01:00:30] Jeff Sieh: Awesome. Can’t wait to check that out. Thank you guys once again for watching. We will see you guys all next week. Bye everybody.

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